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This is tough if you actually try to have a team-oriented mindset. I’ve worked in groups (hard to really call them a team) where everyone, everyone , stiff arme

by bumby 5y ago

This is tough if you actually try to have a team-oriented mindset. I’ve worked in groups (hard to really call them a team) where everyone, everyone , stiff armed duties. The end result is that the hard stuff, or low status stuff, never got done. I get there’s a balance, but if you entered a career where you actually care about the mission, it’s hard to just see that mission suffer because people want to take the easy way out. It’s particularly problematic when they are positions of public trust. Would you want to go to a hospital where the “it’s not my job” attitude is prevalent? Would you hire a contractor to build a house with that attitude? I tend to think the better organizations don’t think in terms of what are peoples “jobs” but what problems actually need solved

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
I wouldn't appeal to a person's better nature to counteract this attitude. If their nature were to be a team player, they would be a team player. Instead, employers need to recognize that there will be mercenary employees, and they need to set up their systems to reward the behavior they actually want to encourage. If mercenary behavior is rewarded, that's what you'll get at the margin. At least at my employer, it doesn't seem like shirkers and work-to-rule folks are rewarded. Maybe there are some people who do work like this and are still getting rewarded by giving off the appearance of being team players, but I guess you'd have to be a pretty careful actor to accomplish that. You'd also need to be able to manipulate your colleagues into doing the work you aren't, but still liking you enough to review you well during 360 reviews. That being said, there is a grain of truth in what the op was saying as well. It's not healthy to care too much about your employer's goals, because they are necessarily in tension with yours to a certain degree. Work should be compartmentalized to the degree appropriate to how much you enjoy it and the material rewards you're getting from it, and this balance is going to be specific to each individual person.
- bumby 5y ago
  I couldn’t agree with this more. I think it also speaks to the importance of leadership in creating a culture that incentivizes the right behavior
whatever1 5y ago
I don’t want overworked medical professionals. I want the hospitals to hire more people to work healthy 8 hour shifts. There is a viable different approach, but the employers do not like it. Let’s stop pretending.
- Proven 5y ago
  And you'd also like that healthcare be free, and affordable. Keep going - what else would you like to have?
- asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  Ultimately, it's payers -- taxpayers and insurance payers -- that aren't down the the "hire more people" solution. Another stakeholder group that's not down with it? Doctors. The AMA, who doctors control corporately, don't certify enough medical schools to train sufficient doctors to make the reality you want possible.
  - whatever1 5y ago
    Does the AMA certify the colleges of nurses? No. And yet here we are: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/feb/12/nurses-hospitals-understaffed-risks-burnout https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/feb/12/nurses-hospi...
    - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
      I didn't say doctors were responsible for all understaffed roles in the country. But they are partly responsible for understaffed physician roles. :) The payer aspect I mentioned is relevant for the nurses.
      - whatever1 5y ago
        In America we pay on average ~$3000 per day of stay in the hospital. How much extra do we have to pay to have enough nurses so that we don't work them to death? Why British hospitals have a fraction of that cost (1/10th)? Oh yes, it is because they decided that it is not a moneymaking business. Overworked employees should not blame themselves for not being able to keep up with unreasonable hours. They should blame the real responsible for their misery. Their employer.
viciousplant 5y ago
Have you ever thought how and why the “it’s not my job” attitude fostered? Most people at least myself on their first day working would never thought they would end up at some point as people they despised so much.
- edmundsauto 5y ago
  I have had a similar career experience. In time, I’ve decided to accept that I’m much more like those people than I wanted to accept when I felt I was a young and hungry “disruptor” I am much more a product of the systems than I wanted to accept. That’s the most mature perspective I have had to date - and has led to more empathy than I thought I was capable of.
  - toxik 5y ago
    The reason you didn’t like those people is that somewhere deep inside you knew it could be you in ten years. I had the same thoughts, and came to the same insight. It’s a lot like how you dislike the people who remind you of your bad qualities.
- bumby 5y ago
  Like most problems I think there’s the actual issue at hand and also the feelings that fosters. Feeling under appreciated is the #1 complaint amongst employees, I believe, and even out-ranks salary. There’s probably a balance. Sometimes the employer isn’t appreciative and sometimes the employee overly inflates their contribution.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Talanes 5y ago
There's room to have pride in your job and still erect those boundaries. Maybe not doing the literal "bare minimum," but recognizing where your duties end. If you're constantly going beyond your duties, there are likely structural issues that are not being addressed.
snowwrestler 5y ago
Hospitals and contractors are great examples of professional fields where job roles are well-defined and the hours worked are carefully tracked. When contractors get too busy, they tell clients their project is delayed. When ER or ICU resources are maxed out, they stop accepting patients and send them to other nearby hospitals. When clinics are fully booked, they stop making appointments. I understand what you’re saying about a problem solving mindset, but that is not the issue in burnout. The issue is unrealistic volumes and deadlines that encroach too far into the rest of your life. Personal boundaries exist in medicine, in fact they are essential to surviving a career in medicine. There will always be more sick, injured, and dying people. The hospital has the mission to save them all if it can. An individual doctor or nurse has to understand that they personally cannot. Or they will burn out very fast. Overworked tech companies could benefit from some perspective from the medical field. Is someone going to die if your feature misses its ship date? Probably not. People die in ERs every day, but guess what: ER staff still work a fixed set of hours, take vacations, etc.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Kranar 5y ago
  Contractors is overly broad but plenty of contractors work overtime and very long, stressful hours including weekends and holidays. Hospitals on the other hand, you're just downright wrong about that. Not only in general do hospital staff work 12 hour shifts including being on-call and having to work abrupt hours, especially over the past year their hours have been absolutely ridiculous. This includes nurses and MDs. Feel free to review some studies on this issue, it's not hard to find nor is it some kind of secret. Basic Google search pops this up within the first few results: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/200130302_The_Working_Hours_Of_Hospital_Staff_Nurses_And_Patient_Safety https://www.researchgate.net/publication/200130302_The_Worki... That study shows that in fact, nurses work their regularly scheduled shift less than 50% of the time, and 81% of their shifts involve overtime even though only 7% of it is scheduled in advance. Here is a study looking at work hours among surgeons and physicians: https://forums.ucdavis.edu/local_resources/docs/Freischlag-SurgeonDistress.pdf https://forums.ucdavis.edu/local_resources/docs/Freischlag-S... It paints a very different picture from the idea that medical staff work very strict and well regulated hours. Their working hours are very chaotic and extreme.

by bumby 5y ago

asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago

I wouldn't appeal to a person's better nature to counteract this attitude. If their nature were to be a team player, they would be a team player. Instead, employers need to recognize that there will be mercenary employees, and they need to set up their systems to reward the behavior they actually want to encourage. If mercenary behavior is rewarded, that's what you'll get at the margin. At least at my employer, it doesn't seem like shirkers and work-to-rule folks are rewarded. Maybe there are some people who do work like this and are still getting rewarded by giving off the appearance of being team players, but I guess you'd have to be a pretty careful actor to accomplish that. You'd also need to be able to manipulate your colleagues into doing the work you aren't, but still liking you enough to review you well during 360 reviews. That being said, there is a grain of truth in what the op was saying as well. It's not healthy to care too much about your employer's goals, because they are necessarily in tension with yours to a certain degree. Work should be compartmentalized to the degree appropriate to how much you enjoy it and the material rewards you're getting from it, and this balance is going to be specific to each individual person.

bumby 5y ago
I couldn’t agree with this more. I think it also speaks to the importance of leadership in creating a culture that incentivizes the right behavior

whatever1 5y ago

I don’t want overworked medical professionals. I want the hospitals to hire more people to work healthy 8 hour shifts. There is a viable different approach, but the employers do not like it. Let’s stop pretending.

Proven 5y ago
And you'd also like that healthcare be free, and affordable. Keep going - what else would you like to have?
asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
Ultimately, it's payers -- taxpayers and insurance payers -- that aren't down the the "hire more people" solution. Another stakeholder group that's not down with it? Doctors. The AMA, who doctors control corporately, don't certify enough medical schools to train sufficient doctors to make the reality you want possible.
- whatever1 5y ago
  Does the AMA certify the colleges of nurses? No. And yet here we are: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/feb/12/nurses-hospitals-understaffed-risks-burnout https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/feb/12/nurses-hospi...
  - asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
    I didn't say doctors were responsible for all understaffed roles in the country. But they are partly responsible for understaffed physician roles. :) The payer aspect I mentioned is relevant for the nurses.
    - whatever1 5y ago
      In America we pay on average ~$3000 per day of stay in the hospital. How much extra do we have to pay to have enough nurses so that we don't work them to death? Why British hospitals have a fraction of that cost (1/10th)? Oh yes, it is because they decided that it is not a moneymaking business. Overworked employees should not blame themselves for not being able to keep up with unreasonable hours. They should blame the real responsible for their misery. Their employer.

viciousplant 5y ago

Have you ever thought how and why the “it’s not my job” attitude fostered? Most people at least myself on their first day working would never thought they would end up at some point as people they despised so much.

edmundsauto 5y ago
I have had a similar career experience. In time, I’ve decided to accept that I’m much more like those people than I wanted to accept when I felt I was a young and hungry “disruptor” I am much more a product of the systems than I wanted to accept. That’s the most mature perspective I have had to date - and has led to more empathy than I thought I was capable of.
- toxik 5y ago
  The reason you didn’t like those people is that somewhere deep inside you knew it could be you in ten years. I had the same thoughts, and came to the same insight. It’s a lot like how you dislike the people who remind you of your bad qualities.
bumby 5y ago
Like most problems I think there’s the actual issue at hand and also the feelings that fosters. Feeling under appreciated is the #1 complaint amongst employees, I believe, and even out-ranks salary. There’s probably a balance. Sometimes the employer isn’t appreciative and sometimes the employee overly inflates their contribution.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Talanes 5y ago

There's room to have pride in your job and still erect those boundaries. Maybe not doing the literal "bare minimum," but recognizing where your duties end. If you're constantly going beyond your duties, there are likely structural issues that are not being addressed.

snowwrestler 5y ago

Hospitals and contractors are great examples of professional fields where job roles are well-defined and the hours worked are carefully tracked. When contractors get too busy, they tell clients their project is delayed. When ER or ICU resources are maxed out, they stop accepting patients and send them to other nearby hospitals. When clinics are fully booked, they stop making appointments. I understand what you’re saying about a problem solving mindset, but that is not the issue in burnout. The issue is unrealistic volumes and deadlines that encroach too far into the rest of your life. Personal boundaries exist in medicine, in fact they are essential to surviving a career in medicine. There will always be more sick, injured, and dying people. The hospital has the mission to save them all if it can. An individual doctor or nurse has to understand that they personally cannot. Or they will burn out very fast. Overworked tech companies could benefit from some perspective from the medical field. Is someone going to die if your feature misses its ship date? Probably not. People die in ERs every day, but guess what: ER staff still work a fixed set of hours, take vacations, etc.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Kranar 5y ago
Contractors is overly broad but plenty of contractors work overtime and very long, stressful hours including weekends and holidays. Hospitals on the other hand, you're just downright wrong about that. Not only in general do hospital staff work 12 hour shifts including being on-call and having to work abrupt hours, especially over the past year their hours have been absolutely ridiculous. This includes nurses and MDs. Feel free to review some studies on this issue, it's not hard to find nor is it some kind of secret. Basic Google search pops this up within the first few results: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/200130302_The_Working_Hours_Of_Hospital_Staff_Nurses_And_Patient_Safety https://www.researchgate.net/publication/200130302_The_Worki... That study shows that in fact, nurses work their regularly scheduled shift less than 50% of the time, and 81% of their shifts involve overtime even though only 7% of it is scheduled in advance. Here is a study looking at work hours among surgeons and physicians: https://forums.ucdavis.edu/local_resources/docs/Freischlag-SurgeonDistress.pdf https://forums.ucdavis.edu/local_resources/docs/Freischlag-S... It paints a very different picture from the idea that medical staff work very strict and well regulated hours. Their working hours are very chaotic and extreme.