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As a 54 year old Software Engineer, who has had a nice IT career for over 26 years, I'm spent. This is coming from someone who has always had a growth mindset

by gregd 5y ago

As a 54 year old Software Engineer, who has had a nice IT career for over 26 years, I'm spent. This is coming from someone who has always had a growth mindset and had a really hard time sitting still. I used to loathe naps and felt like I was missing out if I took one. Now, I take a one hour nap almost daily and I'm finding that after 1pm I'm basically fried (I start working around 7AM). I'm not sure what to do about it, if anything. If I could retire now, I would. I'm trying very hard to get my earnestness about learning new things back and I'm finding that my motivation has just tanked. I'm afraid this is a permanent state now.

paulcole 5y ago
Just curious, but what’s your definition of “growth mindset”? I love being challenged, believe I can change to meet most challenges I face, and enjoy looking for opportunities to improve myself. This is how I’d understood the concept of “growth mindset” from Carole Dweck’s book Mindset. Maybe the difference for me is that none of these things are core components of my identity? It’s just a way of interacting with the world that I find interesting vs. something I feel compelled to go all-gas-no-brakes on all the time.
- gregd 5y ago
  My definition of growth mindset is the same as yours. I don't identify with it so much as I think of it as my baseline. Does this mean my baseline has changed? Absolutely. It's still irksome because I too enjoyed looking for opportunities to improve myself or the methods I use to get things done. Now, I just don't give a fuck.
RobRivera 5y ago
Have you ever taken a sabbatical?
- gregd 5y ago
  An unpaid sabbatical just isn't in the cards for me at the moment.
bumby 5y ago
I never really made the connection before listening to a recent podcast with an expert on serotonin and dopamine, but do you think this is a natural effect of declining dopamine? Online searching seems to indicate dopamine declines with age and is also responsible for taking risks and motivation for both short and long term goal attainment
- gregd 5y ago
  This is highly likely and is worthy of much more research on my end. Thank you for reminding me of this!
- bonniemuffin 5y ago
  Is there any action you can take based on this knowledge to change your outcome, or is it simply an unavoidable part of aging?
  - bumby 5y ago
    I don’t really know much on the topic honestly. There are the usual natural ways to increase dopamine like exercise, getting sunlight, and reducing obesity. There are supplements that supposedly help like vitamin D and magnesium. Then there are drugs that act as dopamine agonists. Where these all fall in terms of efficacy I have no idea.
mettamage 5y ago
Typed on my phone. Six hours of work? Lie the other 2 and call it a day. Or, renegotiate a contract for 6 hours per day. Given how much productivity I presume you bring, I’d lie. I don’t feel bad about it since companies care too little (in general). If they care, then I would care. E.g. a 10x more productive engineer doesn’t get 10x the pay. I met one of these people, they lied. They worked 2 hours, shipped one hour of code in production, saved the other one to commit on a rainy day and still got employee of the year because they were by far the most productive. You could also become a freelancer, then you don’t have to lie. My point is: six hours of productive work should be enough.
- gregd 5y ago
  Part of the problem is that I'm a Software Engineer as well as a Business Analyst and Project Manager. I'm also managing a dev team, so it's really difficult to only work 6 hours a day. Hell, I can't even do all my work in a 40 hour work week. Yes, I realize this isn't a me issue and I'm looking for other work. The problem is that I'm encountering a lot of ageism in this field too.
  - mettamage 5y ago
    I simply don’t finish work if I am spent. If I do, then I am worse the next week. I have the luxury of only needing to take care of myself. Ask to hire for help. The business case is: either you break down, and the company loses a valuable person, or they get extra hands and can resume business operations. And while you’re at it ask for a pay raise because you were likely underpaid. Ageism sucks. See if you can look younger or see if you can work at a company of a linkedin connection. I am just brainstorming, you know what might apply to you.
  - Gortal278 5y ago
    I'd probably be as wiped out of I had the responsibility of three roles. Have you considered finding something else?
  - abledon 5y ago
    have you thought about joining Government? pretty laid back there. Less pay, but if you are okay with that, its worth it if you value time > money
tenaciousDaniel 5y ago
I feel that way now but I'm only 37. I knew it was a bit soon so I went to a doctor, and turns out my testosterone is at 250 (whereas at my age it should be over 1,000). No idea if that's something you've already explored, but felt it couldn't hurt to share.
- codenesium 5y ago
  Same age. Same experience.
- gregd 5y ago
  This is something I've entirely thought about and likely suffering from. That being said, I am trying some other remedies before I take Androgel or Androderm and they seem to be slightly helping.
- hammock 5y ago
  >whereas at my age it should be over 1,000 Where did you get that reference range for a 37 year old? I'm not sure that was even true 30 years ago.
  - tenaciousDaniel 5y ago
    That's what my doctor told me. I'm sure there are differing opinions but meh whatever, I know it could be higher so that's good enough.
    - bumby 5y ago
      I just looked this up last week and I believe the reference said >950 or so put you in the 97.5 percentile of men 18-39. Found it: it’s actually 916 ng/dL https://www.healio.com/news/endocrinology/20170223/researchers-define-normal-ranges-for-testosterone-levels-in-young-men https://www.healio.com/news/endocrinology/20170223/researche...
- tartoran 5y ago
  I started taking some Ashwaganda and experienced positive effects so far. Give it a try, maybe it works out for you as well
dangle1 5y ago
It's so hard to reply without coming off as presumptuous and ignorant of your situation, so I apologize in advance. These kinds of feelings can of course be a sign of burnout that can get better with the suggestions in the article plus some significant time off that doesn't come with the penalty of having to make up for all the time off. On the other hand, maybe it's time to reexamine when you can retire. There are a lot of forums about this, my wife 'rescued' me from feeling like I needed to work to normal retirement age after reading a lot of Mr. Money Mustache, FWIW.
burnafter182 5y ago
There's a weird fixation on productivity that gets drilled into our heads at a young age. It's beyond okay to not be running 100% all the time, regardless of what the paradigm espouses as value.
- trts 5y ago
  The problem I see is that the delivery system has evolved in many companies / tech in general to be JIT, but for human resources. While at FAANG, I was at capacity every week. So a 'normal' week (which was actually quite rare), I expected to spend 35-45 hours in work + meetings. But 75% of those weeks, some urgent issue would come up. Then you have an extra 15-25 hours of attending to the urgency, falling behind 5-15 hours on planned work, and then you spend all evening thinking about how to solve the Very Urgent Problem. Even if you are good at compartmentalizing, you'll be confounded by redundant messages from middle managers asking you about the status of the Very Urgent Problem. Taking a break / vacation means twice as much work for 1-3 weeks before the vacation, and 1-3 weeks after, as you must prepare for coverage for while you are out of office, and then catch up on what happened while you were gone. Add in the death of a loved one, medical issue or even a string of minor problems and you're completely subjugate to external circumstances. This will lead to burnout, at a minimum. As a younger person, this kind of environment made me feel important and necessary. Later I began to realize this is the opposite of the truth. Important and necessary people have the power to set their own terms. I am not sure why things have evolved this way. I recently watched Koyaanisqatsi ('life out of balance') a film from the 80s about modernity and technology and found it as relevant as ever. However the busyness that used to be outwardly visible has now migrated into our minds and seems to be causing mass unhappiness and mental health issues.
  - burnafter182 5y ago
    I think it has to do with reifying things that hadn't ought to be rigid. A 0001 deadline is arbitrary, being one minute over is not really consequential from a logical perspective until you've negotiated and inked a contract that makes fees contingent on having X done prior to 0001, and once that contract is signed and made into company custom...
fragmede 5y ago
With all due respect, saying you're 54 isn't enough context. The past 18 months have been a lot. For everybody, in and out of tech. Knowing you've been in tech longer than most helps sell... what? that you're more deserving of being tired that the rest of us? (Not rowdy invalid, there is an official retirement age after all...) But shit, the new iPhone came out and all I could hear was how much I don't want to wait in line nor be made fun of for my phone having a button and being an olds. I'm really afraid this is a permanent state but I don't have as many years to fall back on. I have enough savings not to starve but the pandemic changed things and those savings aren't going to last forever! (Rapidly dwindling, some might say.) Hope yours lasts longer than mine!
- gregd 5y ago
  What a bizarre takeaway from what I said. Saying I'm 54 and have had a 26+ year career in tech was MY context for feeling spent.
bshep 5y ago
Im in a different field but I too have felt similarly. I would suggest a couple of things: - see a psychologist (not a psychiatrist, athough a psychiatrist may be step later on) - this should help you develop tools to make yourself better - dont take work home, stop when you are tired - i saw that you fulfill multiple roles, could some of that be delegated? are you being compensated for those roles or did they just pile on over time? maybe its time to talk to your boss about it… - take a real vacation, as in stay home and dont do anything - excersize, avoid alcohol/substances
ggm 5y ago
My psychologist urged me to listen to my body. If you find you haven't got an 8 hour day in you, do what you can in less and stop pretending. Spend part of every day outside. Spend part of every week in the company of others. I too was very concerned about if I could "stop" and worried about my mojo and work ethic which went missing around 10 years ago. You learn to cope, and I read enough financial investment advice to realize I need less than I feared post work, but probably I won't entirely retire: moving to a different intensity of work is the goal probably. It helps to live in an economy with a public health service. Moving country in these times is hard, moving country also breaks social ties which are really important in older age but mid-50s you can make bridges to a new community. So, if you are in a place where health costs will be a major concern, think about international relocation. The longer you leave it the less likely it is to work.
bamboozled 5y ago
I’m younger than you, had the same issue and solved it by working less and doing more outside. Lifting weights in the sun, mountain biking, golf, surfing. In understand this is a luxury not everyone can afford but what I do now is work from about 6-9am, go out during the day until about 3, work 4-6. Which if you add it up is still a solid 5 hour day. For whatever reason it just makes me more productive and sleep better at night. Before I did this I just felt like a slave to my computer, super tired all the time, depressed and lethargic. I had sleeping problems because I felt like I was missing out on “life” and for some reason I’d stay up late on Instagram, YouTube etc, maybe watching others live vicariously ? I felt dissatisfied. Knowledge work pays well but IMO it can come at a pretty high cost if you don’t prioritise your life. Edit: I read your reply on another post, I think you’re doing way too much at your job. It’s not manageable and it sounds like you’re burned out and likely failing at at least one of your duties making you feel down.
- rubicon33 5y ago
  How did you manage this with your employer?
  - ddoolin 5y ago
    Work remotely and not be micromanaged is how I manage something similar. Mine might be even more extreme. Sometimes the second half of my biphasic work schedule may not occur until as late as 9 PM.
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    And SO and kids?
    - carlivar 5y ago
      People with these sort of ideal solutions rarely have kids. The parent article is better advice in that domain.
      - true_religion 5y ago
bbarnett 5y ago
This is going to sound really stupid, but get bloodwork done for a vitamin deficiency. As one ages, nutrient absorption wanes. You often need more, to get the same as when younger. So even with an unchanging diet, you may have changed. Working out is the same, eg a 30 minute walk may require a 35 minutes, 40 minutes, for the same cardio benefit.
nickjj 5y ago
> As a 54 year old Software Engineer, who has had a nice IT career for over 26 years, I'm spent. What did you feel like at 30, 40 and 47 for comparison? If it's different, what position / work did you do during those years vs what you do now? Software Engineer and IT is a pretty wide net.
mmastrac 5y ago
Consider that COVID is part of it. I was enjoying myself at work until it hit and then my motivation and desire to learn new things plummeted. I decided to take a sabbatical to recharge and it took a few months before I could enjoy writing code again. I just didn't realize I was burnt out by the world in general.
- listless 5y ago
  I feel this so much. But I can’t take a sabbatical - I have to pay bills. I basically work everyday and tell myself “just one more hour and then I’ll take off the rest of the day”. I do that every hour until I get as close to 5 as possible. I’ve been like this for over a year. This is my life. I try not to think about it.
  - mmastrac 5y ago
    Can you handle a few months off on savings? I realize I'm talking from a privileged position but it can make a real difference.
    - listless 5y ago
      I can, but my wife works so hard and she would be so angry if i burned through our savings. I wouldn’t blame her. Also my kids work so hard at school. If I stopped working, it would be a terrible example.
  - dredmorbius 5y ago
    A sabbatical now may stave off not being able to work for months or years later. Possibly sooner than you think. Another option is to dial back on committments and intensity, possibly with a reduction in income. It's no a full work cessation, but it is preserving sanity and intellectual capacity. If your finances are stretched now, start cutting. Deep, hard, and fast. If you've a partner, involve them in this discussion.
webdev777 5y ago
I thought by the time you're 54 you could retire. I'm much younger and I could retire in a couple of years. What is your saving rate? - you can read more here https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/ https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/ Your job starts at 7am? You could start later, like 10. Have your 2-3h lunch time. Finish at 6pm. Change jobs until you find a job like that. There are plenty, I can assure you.
- syshum 5y ago
  >>I thought by the time you're 54 you could retire. I'm much younger and I could retire in a couple of years. What is your saving rate? That is not going to help him much now. Not everyone has or could have started saving early in life. Some did not due to ignorance, some did not due to life circumstances, some did but other life events could have taken that from them (i.e bad investments, divorce, medical issue, or 100's of other things). Just because you have the luck and privilege to be on the FIRE path does not mean everyone else is as lucky or choose that path. This person may have not planned to retire early and looking back now wished they had made that plan in the 20's. The road not taken an all that... >>Change jobs until you find a job like that. There are plenty, I can assure you. Again it would seem you are taking your anecdote and applying it globally. This is very region specific and I can assure you in my region there are exactly Zero jobs in IT that allow you to start at 10am, take a 2-3 hour lunch, and knock off an 6pm... I will not implicitly state those are not common, but I can not imagine a region where they are?
  - webdev777 5y ago
    I didn't say he should have retired, it's just my expectation for a software engineer to have the ability to retire by then. It's very likely he could retire but he just didn't realized. Maybe looking into it, it's not a bad idea. I worked on 3 continents, in more than 10 companies. No employer ever told me I'm coming in too late, my lunch time it's too long or I'm leaving too early (6pm).
    - syshum 5y ago
vimy 5y ago
Like a couple of others have suggested, get a checkup at the doctor. This sounds more like an energy problem than a psychological one.
breput 5y ago
I work with people in their 20s through 50s (I'm not quite as experienced as you, but I'm a solid Gen X, so getting there). I feel like this a common sentiment across all ages, which is honestly something new in the past two years. As an example - we had a very useful, functional internal developer tool written in Elm (the language, not the mail program). The original devs all quit and no one was interested in learning a new language, so the tool is being shut down and "all" (minus the useful parts) content is moving to a half-assed mix of Wiki, Atlassian tools, and honestly just falling through the cracks. I wasn't involved in the tool's development or depreciation, but just the fact that we have tons of interns and junior software devs around that couldn't be bothered or forced to learn a new language backs up your "I'm spent" motivation TED talk.
- wirrbel 5y ago
  I, too, am not excited to take over maintenance of someone else's pet project, whose quality I am not capable assessing (and the "fun of starting" gone). Coworker: We'll use Docker, Minikube dev setup,@#$%@.io and Unicorn-Lang, this will be awesomest! Me: Oh, have you considered boring tech? Coworker: ah, it's old, not how software is built today. Also coworker: leaves 1.5 years later with with us having to pick up the pieces.
dghughes 5y ago
I'm 52 got laid off a pseudo-IT job went to a technical college, graduated, got entry level IT and after a year I feel burned out. I'm at the bottom rung of IT where even young people get burned out. Now each day is just a blur of anxiety. I used to love IT, school was a blast I loved programming, servers, networking, security, web design, troubleshooting, but help desk not so much at 52. I used to work evenings and nights at my old job now 9pm seems like 3am.
FpUser 5y ago
I guess I am very lucky then. I am 60 and still very active in development. I develop my own products and I develop new products for clients in various industries. The range is very wide (firmware, low level soft, enterprise applications back and front end, equipment / process control, desktop productivity and entertainment software etc. etc). I do get tired every once in a while but since I am an independent company I can almost always take my time and recover. So far I did not loose any of that sense of excitement when starting on design of completely new project. I guess being ISV for the last 22 years helps greatly in this department. Also read a lot, play me some music on keyboard (insanely bad but who cares) and do fair bit of physical activity (cycling, hiking, swimming in the lakes and ocean. As a result I am very fit, have lots of energy and my brain is always itching to start something new. What I do not have is a ton of money but I am not doing too bad and would not trade my freedom for anything
cyberferret 5y ago
I'm a 54 year old too, who has been cutting code since I was 18. Currently running my own startup which is doing well, but I find that the long years of long hours have sapped my energy levels quite drastically. I deliberately only work about 4 to 6 hours per day max, and delegate everything else to my team. I also take Wednesdays off entirely to spend as a 'date day' with my wife who also has doesn't have a work shift on Wednesdays, and I don't work on weekends any more. My working hours are broken up - I may do 2 or 3 hours in the morning when I wake up, but then I go off an indulge in my other passions such as music production etc. Then I may do a couple more hours in the afternoon when the rest of my remote team are coming online on the other side of the world, then I will take a break to cook dinner etc. and check in quickly before going to bed to ensure all tasks are on track. Like the comment poster above I also take regular naps in the afternoon to recharge my batteries. I also don't have more than 2 to 3 meetings per week, and I am VERY selective about who I meet with and for how long. I am totally focused on maximising every ounce of energy towards only things that will move my startup forward. Conversely, some of those meetings are actually spent mentoring other startup founders - I find that it really motivates me to 'give back' to the community a little after decades of receiving help and advice. An yes, I have been through actual burnout 4 times in my career. Each time gets worse, but I also now know to look for the signs - plus my family and colleagues also keep watch for early signs, which helps me mitigate the onset of bad habits and work patterns that may trigger it.
FpUser 5y ago
>"I'm finding that after 1pm I'm basically fried (I start working around 7AM)." Sometimes I do the same - starting 6-7AM and by around noon I quit. I consider it quite normal and nothing to be ashamed of. Except some emergencies productive people (and I count myself as one) do not really shovel gravel 8 hours a day. No point in doing so.
notacoward 5y ago
I'm 56, and a couple of years ago I was very much where you are. I was used to hard work (about a dozen startups over the years), I was used to learning and excelling and being recognized for it. Until I wasn't. To keep a long story short, I was able to retire and took advantage of it. I highly recommend that you take a good hard look at what it would take for you to get to retirement, and make a plan. It might require cutting back in some areas, but if you don't figure out how to do it then the universe will and it'll probably be worse. Your plan might involve "one last push" to build up savings, or it might involve a "wind down" at a less stressful kind of job that you can sustain for longer. That's up to you. One thing I will say is that I've known several people who tried the "learning new things" route as an antidote to burnout, and it backfired badly. They ended up being even more stressed, unable to perform at their accustomed level, younger colleagues being resentful, etc. Maybe it'll be different for you, but it seems to me that learning new things is best done on your own time - cutting back on work hours to make room if necessary. A sabbatical or a period of part-time work might seem like it's just dragging things out even more, but sometimes it's the right strategy if it keeps you from losing it altogether. Good luck.
LeafletOnDemand 5y ago
Go to church
joelbluminator 5y ago
Are you exercising? Lack of physical exercise is literally a killer.
flippinburgers 5y ago
Younger than you by not much and spent. I have no idea how to recover from this.
emgo 5y ago
The work that you're saying you do daily from 7am-1pm, do you feel satisfied about it at the end of the day? Does it create meaning for you on the grander scheme of things? (based on what your personal values are, and you personally find meaningful) If not, then it's probably time to switch employer, to one that has a product/mission that is aligned with a topic/field that would bring more meaning into your life. If that's not possible, you could try spending one less hour per day on that job you have, and invest that hour in something that creates meaning in your own terms.
louis___ 5y ago
If you're open to try new approaches, meditating may help.

by gregd 5y ago

paulcole 5y ago

Just curious, but what’s your definition of “growth mindset”? I love being challenged, believe I can change to meet most challenges I face, and enjoy looking for opportunities to improve myself. This is how I’d understood the concept of “growth mindset” from Carole Dweck’s book Mindset. Maybe the difference for me is that none of these things are core components of my identity? It’s just a way of interacting with the world that I find interesting vs. something I feel compelled to go all-gas-no-brakes on all the time.

gregd 5y ago
My definition of growth mindset is the same as yours. I don't identify with it so much as I think of it as my baseline. Does this mean my baseline has changed? Absolutely. It's still irksome because I too enjoyed looking for opportunities to improve myself or the methods I use to get things done. Now, I just don't give a fuck.

RobRivera 5y ago

Have you ever taken a sabbatical?

gregd 5y ago
An unpaid sabbatical just isn't in the cards for me at the moment.

bumby 5y ago

I never really made the connection before listening to a recent podcast with an expert on serotonin and dopamine, but do you think this is a natural effect of declining dopamine? Online searching seems to indicate dopamine declines with age and is also responsible for taking risks and motivation for both short and long term goal attainment

gregd 5y ago
This is highly likely and is worthy of much more research on my end. Thank you for reminding me of this!
bonniemuffin 5y ago
Is there any action you can take based on this knowledge to change your outcome, or is it simply an unavoidable part of aging?
- bumby 5y ago
  I don’t really know much on the topic honestly. There are the usual natural ways to increase dopamine like exercise, getting sunlight, and reducing obesity. There are supplements that supposedly help like vitamin D and magnesium. Then there are drugs that act as dopamine agonists. Where these all fall in terms of efficacy I have no idea.

mettamage 5y ago

Typed on my phone. Six hours of work? Lie the other 2 and call it a day. Or, renegotiate a contract for 6 hours per day. Given how much productivity I presume you bring, I’d lie. I don’t feel bad about it since companies care too little (in general). If they care, then I would care. E.g. a 10x more productive engineer doesn’t get 10x the pay. I met one of these people, they lied. They worked 2 hours, shipped one hour of code in production, saved the other one to commit on a rainy day and still got employee of the year because they were by far the most productive. You could also become a freelancer, then you don’t have to lie. My point is: six hours of productive work should be enough.

gregd 5y ago
Part of the problem is that I'm a Software Engineer as well as a Business Analyst and Project Manager. I'm also managing a dev team, so it's really difficult to only work 6 hours a day. Hell, I can't even do all my work in a 40 hour work week. Yes, I realize this isn't a me issue and I'm looking for other work. The problem is that I'm encountering a lot of ageism in this field too.
- mettamage 5y ago
  I simply don’t finish work if I am spent. If I do, then I am worse the next week. I have the luxury of only needing to take care of myself. Ask to hire for help. The business case is: either you break down, and the company loses a valuable person, or they get extra hands and can resume business operations. And while you’re at it ask for a pay raise because you were likely underpaid. Ageism sucks. See if you can look younger or see if you can work at a company of a linkedin connection. I am just brainstorming, you know what might apply to you.
- Gortal278 5y ago
  I'd probably be as wiped out of I had the responsibility of three roles. Have you considered finding something else?
- abledon 5y ago
  have you thought about joining Government? pretty laid back there. Less pay, but if you are okay with that, its worth it if you value time > money

tenaciousDaniel 5y ago

I feel that way now but I'm only 37. I knew it was a bit soon so I went to a doctor, and turns out my testosterone is at 250 (whereas at my age it should be over 1,000). No idea if that's something you've already explored, but felt it couldn't hurt to share.

codenesium 5y ago
Same age. Same experience.
gregd 5y ago
This is something I've entirely thought about and likely suffering from. That being said, I am trying some other remedies before I take Androgel or Androderm and they seem to be slightly helping.
hammock 5y ago
>whereas at my age it should be over 1,000 Where did you get that reference range for a 37 year old? I'm not sure that was even true 30 years ago.
- tenaciousDaniel 5y ago
  That's what my doctor told me. I'm sure there are differing opinions but meh whatever, I know it could be higher so that's good enough.
  - bumby 5y ago
    I just looked this up last week and I believe the reference said >950 or so put you in the 97.5 percentile of men 18-39. Found it: it’s actually 916 ng/dL https://www.healio.com/news/endocrinology/20170223/researchers-define-normal-ranges-for-testosterone-levels-in-young-men https://www.healio.com/news/endocrinology/20170223/researche...
tartoran 5y ago
I started taking some Ashwaganda and experienced positive effects so far. Give it a try, maybe it works out for you as well

dangle1 5y ago

It's so hard to reply without coming off as presumptuous and ignorant of your situation, so I apologize in advance. These kinds of feelings can of course be a sign of burnout that can get better with the suggestions in the article plus some significant time off that doesn't come with the penalty of having to make up for all the time off. On the other hand, maybe it's time to reexamine when you can retire. There are a lot of forums about this, my wife 'rescued' me from feeling like I needed to work to normal retirement age after reading a lot of Mr. Money Mustache, FWIW.

burnafter182 5y ago

There's a weird fixation on productivity that gets drilled into our heads at a young age. It's beyond okay to not be running 100% all the time, regardless of what the paradigm espouses as value.

trts 5y ago
The problem I see is that the delivery system has evolved in many companies / tech in general to be JIT, but for human resources. While at FAANG, I was at capacity every week. So a 'normal' week (which was actually quite rare), I expected to spend 35-45 hours in work + meetings. But 75% of those weeks, some urgent issue would come up. Then you have an extra 15-25 hours of attending to the urgency, falling behind 5-15 hours on planned work, and then you spend all evening thinking about how to solve the Very Urgent Problem. Even if you are good at compartmentalizing, you'll be confounded by redundant messages from middle managers asking you about the status of the Very Urgent Problem. Taking a break / vacation means twice as much work for 1-3 weeks before the vacation, and 1-3 weeks after, as you must prepare for coverage for while you are out of office, and then catch up on what happened while you were gone. Add in the death of a loved one, medical issue or even a string of minor problems and you're completely subjugate to external circumstances. This will lead to burnout, at a minimum. As a younger person, this kind of environment made me feel important and necessary. Later I began to realize this is the opposite of the truth. Important and necessary people have the power to set their own terms. I am not sure why things have evolved this way. I recently watched Koyaanisqatsi ('life out of balance') a film from the 80s about modernity and technology and found it as relevant as ever. However the busyness that used to be outwardly visible has now migrated into our minds and seems to be causing mass unhappiness and mental health issues.
- burnafter182 5y ago
  I think it has to do with reifying things that hadn't ought to be rigid. A 0001 deadline is arbitrary, being one minute over is not really consequential from a logical perspective until you've negotiated and inked a contract that makes fees contingent on having X done prior to 0001, and once that contract is signed and made into company custom...

fragmede 5y ago

With all due respect, saying you're 54 isn't enough context. The past 18 months have been a lot. For everybody, in and out of tech. Knowing you've been in tech longer than most helps sell... what? that you're more deserving of being tired that the rest of us? (Not rowdy invalid, there is an official retirement age after all...) But shit, the new iPhone came out and all I could hear was how much I don't want to wait in line nor be made fun of for my phone having a button and being an olds. I'm really afraid this is a permanent state but I don't have as many years to fall back on. I have enough savings not to starve but the pandemic changed things and those savings aren't going to last forever! (Rapidly dwindling, some might say.) Hope yours lasts longer than mine!

gregd 5y ago
What a bizarre takeaway from what I said. Saying I'm 54 and have had a 26+ year career in tech was MY context for feeling spent.

bshep 5y ago

Im in a different field but I too have felt similarly. I would suggest a couple of things: - see a psychologist (not a psychiatrist, athough a psychiatrist may be step later on) - this should help you develop tools to make yourself better - dont take work home, stop when you are tired - i saw that you fulfill multiple roles, could some of that be delegated? are you being compensated for those roles or did they just pile on over time? maybe its time to talk to your boss about it… - take a real vacation, as in stay home and dont do anything - excersize, avoid alcohol/substances

ggm 5y ago

My psychologist urged me to listen to my body. If you find you haven't got an 8 hour day in you, do what you can in less and stop pretending. Spend part of every day outside. Spend part of every week in the company of others. I too was very concerned about if I could "stop" and worried about my mojo and work ethic which went missing around 10 years ago. You learn to cope, and I read enough financial investment advice to realize I need less than I feared post work, but probably I won't entirely retire: moving to a different intensity of work is the goal probably. It helps to live in an economy with a public health service. Moving country in these times is hard, moving country also breaks social ties which are really important in older age but mid-50s you can make bridges to a new community. So, if you are in a place where health costs will be a major concern, think about international relocation. The longer you leave it the less likely it is to work.

bamboozled 5y ago

I’m younger than you, had the same issue and solved it by working less and doing more outside. Lifting weights in the sun, mountain biking, golf, surfing. In understand this is a luxury not everyone can afford but what I do now is work from about 6-9am, go out during the day until about 3, work 4-6. Which if you add it up is still a solid 5 hour day. For whatever reason it just makes me more productive and sleep better at night. Before I did this I just felt like a slave to my computer, super tired all the time, depressed and lethargic. I had sleeping problems because I felt like I was missing out on “life” and for some reason I’d stay up late on Instagram, YouTube etc, maybe watching others live vicariously ? I felt dissatisfied. Knowledge work pays well but IMO it can come at a pretty high cost if you don’t prioritise your life. Edit: I read your reply on another post, I think you’re doing way too much at your job. It’s not manageable and it sounds like you’re burned out and likely failing at at least one of your duties making you feel down.

rubicon33 5y ago
How did you manage this with your employer?
- ddoolin 5y ago
  Work remotely and not be micromanaged is how I manage something similar. Mine might be even more extreme. Sometimes the second half of my biphasic work schedule may not occur until as late as 9 PM.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  And SO and kids?
  - carlivar 5y ago
    People with these sort of ideal solutions rarely have kids. The parent article is better advice in that domain.
    - true_religion 5y ago

bbarnett 5y ago

This is going to sound really stupid, but get bloodwork done for a vitamin deficiency. As one ages, nutrient absorption wanes. You often need more, to get the same as when younger. So even with an unchanging diet, you may have changed. Working out is the same, eg a 30 minute walk may require a 35 minutes, 40 minutes, for the same cardio benefit.

nickjj 5y ago

> As a 54 year old Software Engineer, who has had a nice IT career for over 26 years, I'm spent. What did you feel like at 30, 40 and 47 for comparison? If it's different, what position / work did you do during those years vs what you do now? Software Engineer and IT is a pretty wide net.

mmastrac 5y ago

Consider that COVID is part of it. I was enjoying myself at work until it hit and then my motivation and desire to learn new things plummeted. I decided to take a sabbatical to recharge and it took a few months before I could enjoy writing code again. I just didn't realize I was burnt out by the world in general.

listless 5y ago
I feel this so much. But I can’t take a sabbatical - I have to pay bills. I basically work everyday and tell myself “just one more hour and then I’ll take off the rest of the day”. I do that every hour until I get as close to 5 as possible. I’ve been like this for over a year. This is my life. I try not to think about it.
- mmastrac 5y ago
  Can you handle a few months off on savings? I realize I'm talking from a privileged position but it can make a real difference.
  - listless 5y ago
    I can, but my wife works so hard and she would be so angry if i burned through our savings. I wouldn’t blame her. Also my kids work so hard at school. If I stopped working, it would be a terrible example.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  A sabbatical now may stave off not being able to work for months or years later. Possibly sooner than you think. Another option is to dial back on committments and intensity, possibly with a reduction in income. It's no a full work cessation, but it is preserving sanity and intellectual capacity. If your finances are stretched now, start cutting. Deep, hard, and fast. If you've a partner, involve them in this discussion.

webdev777 5y ago

I thought by the time you're 54 you could retire. I'm much younger and I could retire in a couple of years. What is your saving rate? - you can read more here https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/ https://www.reddit.com/r/financialindependence/ Your job starts at 7am? You could start later, like 10. Have your 2-3h lunch time. Finish at 6pm. Change jobs until you find a job like that. There are plenty, I can assure you.

syshum 5y ago
>>I thought by the time you're 54 you could retire. I'm much younger and I could retire in a couple of years. What is your saving rate? That is not going to help him much now. Not everyone has or could have started saving early in life. Some did not due to ignorance, some did not due to life circumstances, some did but other life events could have taken that from them (i.e bad investments, divorce, medical issue, or 100's of other things). Just because you have the luck and privilege to be on the FIRE path does not mean everyone else is as lucky or choose that path. This person may have not planned to retire early and looking back now wished they had made that plan in the 20's. The road not taken an all that... >>Change jobs until you find a job like that. There are plenty, I can assure you. Again it would seem you are taking your anecdote and applying it globally. This is very region specific and I can assure you in my region there are exactly Zero jobs in IT that allow you to start at 10am, take a 2-3 hour lunch, and knock off an 6pm... I will not implicitly state those are not common, but I can not imagine a region where they are?
- webdev777 5y ago
  I didn't say he should have retired, it's just my expectation for a software engineer to have the ability to retire by then. It's very likely he could retire but he just didn't realized. Maybe looking into it, it's not a bad idea. I worked on 3 continents, in more than 10 companies. No employer ever told me I'm coming in too late, my lunch time it's too long or I'm leaving too early (6pm).
  - syshum 5y ago

vimy 5y ago

Like a couple of others have suggested, get a checkup at the doctor. This sounds more like an energy problem than a psychological one.

breput 5y ago

I work with people in their 20s through 50s (I'm not quite as experienced as you, but I'm a solid Gen X, so getting there). I feel like this a common sentiment across all ages, which is honestly something new in the past two years. As an example - we had a very useful, functional internal developer tool written in Elm (the language, not the mail program). The original devs all quit and no one was interested in learning a new language, so the tool is being shut down and "all" (minus the useful parts) content is moving to a half-assed mix of Wiki, Atlassian tools, and honestly just falling through the cracks. I wasn't involved in the tool's development or depreciation, but just the fact that we have tons of interns and junior software devs around that couldn't be bothered or forced to learn a new language backs up your "I'm spent" motivation TED talk.

wirrbel 5y ago
I, too, am not excited to take over maintenance of someone else's pet project, whose quality I am not capable assessing (and the "fun of starting" gone). Coworker: We'll use Docker, Minikube dev setup,@#$%@.io and Unicorn-Lang, this will be awesomest! Me: Oh, have you considered boring tech? Coworker: ah, it's old, not how software is built today. Also coworker: leaves 1.5 years later with with us having to pick up the pieces.

dghughes 5y ago

I'm 52 got laid off a pseudo-IT job went to a technical college, graduated, got entry level IT and after a year I feel burned out. I'm at the bottom rung of IT where even young people get burned out. Now each day is just a blur of anxiety. I used to love IT, school was a blast I loved programming, servers, networking, security, web design, troubleshooting, but help desk not so much at 52. I used to work evenings and nights at my old job now 9pm seems like 3am.

FpUser 5y ago

I guess I am very lucky then. I am 60 and still very active in development. I develop my own products and I develop new products for clients in various industries. The range is very wide (firmware, low level soft, enterprise applications back and front end, equipment / process control, desktop productivity and entertainment software etc. etc). I do get tired every once in a while but since I am an independent company I can almost always take my time and recover. So far I did not loose any of that sense of excitement when starting on design of completely new project. I guess being ISV for the last 22 years helps greatly in this department. Also read a lot, play me some music on keyboard (insanely bad but who cares) and do fair bit of physical activity (cycling, hiking, swimming in the lakes and ocean. As a result I am very fit, have lots of energy and my brain is always itching to start something new. What I do not have is a ton of money but I am not doing too bad and would not trade my freedom for anything

cyberferret 5y ago

I'm a 54 year old too, who has been cutting code since I was 18. Currently running my own startup which is doing well, but I find that the long years of long hours have sapped my energy levels quite drastically. I deliberately only work about 4 to 6 hours per day max, and delegate everything else to my team. I also take Wednesdays off entirely to spend as a 'date day' with my wife who also has doesn't have a work shift on Wednesdays, and I don't work on weekends any more. My working hours are broken up - I may do 2 or 3 hours in the morning when I wake up, but then I go off an indulge in my other passions such as music production etc. Then I may do a couple more hours in the afternoon when the rest of my remote team are coming online on the other side of the world, then I will take a break to cook dinner etc. and check in quickly before going to bed to ensure all tasks are on track. Like the comment poster above I also take regular naps in the afternoon to recharge my batteries. I also don't have more than 2 to 3 meetings per week, and I am VERY selective about who I meet with and for how long. I am totally focused on maximising every ounce of energy towards only things that will move my startup forward. Conversely, some of those meetings are actually spent mentoring other startup founders - I find that it really motivates me to 'give back' to the community a little after decades of receiving help and advice. An yes, I have been through actual burnout 4 times in my career. Each time gets worse, but I also now know to look for the signs - plus my family and colleagues also keep watch for early signs, which helps me mitigate the onset of bad habits and work patterns that may trigger it.

FpUser 5y ago

>"I'm finding that after 1pm I'm basically fried (I start working around 7AM)." Sometimes I do the same - starting 6-7AM and by around noon I quit. I consider it quite normal and nothing to be ashamed of. Except some emergencies productive people (and I count myself as one) do not really shovel gravel 8 hours a day. No point in doing so.

notacoward 5y ago

I'm 56, and a couple of years ago I was very much where you are. I was used to hard work (about a dozen startups over the years), I was used to learning and excelling and being recognized for it. Until I wasn't. To keep a long story short, I was able to retire and took advantage of it. I highly recommend that you take a good hard look at what it would take for you to get to retirement, and make a plan. It might require cutting back in some areas, but if you don't figure out how to do it then the universe will and it'll probably be worse. Your plan might involve "one last push" to build up savings, or it might involve a "wind down" at a less stressful kind of job that you can sustain for longer. That's up to you. One thing I will say is that I've known several people who tried the "learning new things" route as an antidote to burnout, and it backfired badly. They ended up being even more stressed, unable to perform at their accustomed level, younger colleagues being resentful, etc. Maybe it'll be different for you, but it seems to me that learning new things is best done on your own time - cutting back on work hours to make room if necessary. A sabbatical or a period of part-time work might seem like it's just dragging things out even more, but sometimes it's the right strategy if it keeps you from losing it altogether. Good luck.

LeafletOnDemand 5y ago

Go to church

joelbluminator 5y ago

Are you exercising? Lack of physical exercise is literally a killer.

flippinburgers 5y ago

Younger than you by not much and spent. I have no idea how to recover from this.

emgo 5y ago

The work that you're saying you do daily from 7am-1pm, do you feel satisfied about it at the end of the day? Does it create meaning for you on the grander scheme of things? (based on what your personal values are, and you personally find meaningful) If not, then it's probably time to switch employer, to one that has a product/mission that is aligned with a topic/field that would bring more meaning into your life. If that's not possible, you could try spending one less hour per day on that job you have, and invest that hour in something that creates meaning in your own terms.

louis___ 5y ago

If you're open to try new approaches, meditating may help.