4 ms·

Tbf, that is how they operate in many (most?) other countries, too. Why would they tell you you're a suspect or under investigation? That's counter productive,

by bserge 5y ago

Tbf, that is how they operate in many (most?) other countries, too. Why would they tell you you're a suspect or under investigation? That's counter productive, you could hide your actions better or plan an escape.

still_grokking 5y ago
Of course they won't tell you as long as you're under suspicion. That's normal and makes perfect sense. But after the case is closed (and there is no accusation) they should inform you so you could take legal steps to validate the rightfulness of such actions. If observation over a long time doesn't lead to accusation there is a strong pointer that this observation wasn't actually justified in the first place… As it stands there is no possibility for those affected by state surveillance to ever prove any wrongdoing of the agencies that spied on them! Now only a very small group in parliament can check cases after the fact. But they can't check mostly anything as this is I think 10 or so people against three agencies and hundreds of cases (if you take internet surveillance into account it's actually millions of cases…).
syshum 5y ago
This becomes a problem in over criminalized society where most people commit some violation of law with out even being fully aware of that fact or what law they violated This allows for for selective targeting and prosecution based on all manner of reasons form political to personal. It is not something we should just simply excuse away as "well everyone else does it so it valid and OK"
iphonexyzy 5y ago
This is how they operate in any country. A foreign agency is not gonna report to you either
- still_grokking 5y ago
  So you thinks it's OK that an inner secret service is operating in legal vacuum for the most part? I sense some issues with this approach.
  - iphonexyzy 5y ago
    Secret services don’t obey laws. There will be (foreign) entities spying on you, whether you like it or not.
    - still_grokking 5y ago
      Which part of "inner secret service" did you miss?

by bserge 5y ago

still_grokking 5y ago

Of course they won't tell you as long as you're under suspicion. That's normal and makes perfect sense. But after the case is closed (and there is no accusation) they should inform you so you could take legal steps to validate the rightfulness of such actions. If observation over a long time doesn't lead to accusation there is a strong pointer that this observation wasn't actually justified in the first place… As it stands there is no possibility for those affected by state surveillance to ever prove any wrongdoing of the agencies that spied on them! Now only a very small group in parliament can check cases after the fact. But they can't check mostly anything as this is I think 10 or so people against three agencies and hundreds of cases (if you take internet surveillance into account it's actually millions of cases…).

syshum 5y ago

This becomes a problem in over criminalized society where most people commit some violation of law with out even being fully aware of that fact or what law they violated This allows for for selective targeting and prosecution based on all manner of reasons form political to personal. It is not something we should just simply excuse away as "well everyone else does it so it valid and OK"

iphonexyzy 5y ago

This is how they operate in any country. A foreign agency is not gonna report to you either

still_grokking 5y ago
So you thinks it's OK that an inner secret service is operating in legal vacuum for the most part? I sense some issues with this approach.
- iphonexyzy 5y ago
  Secret services don’t obey laws. There will be (foreign) entities spying on you, whether you like it or not.
  - still_grokking 5y ago
    Which part of "inner secret service" did you miss?