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That's the default modus operandi for the German 3-letter agencies: If they spy on you, up to installing surveillance devices at your home, and following you wh

That's the default modus operandi for the German 3-letter agencies: If they spy on you, up to installing surveillance devices at your home, and following you wherever you go for years, you will be never told that happened in case this observation doesn't lead to some "official" accusation. It's now like that for a few years. Before that they (usually) needed to at least inform you after surveillance stopped. Now they don't. The justification for the new regulation is that it would be "too much work" for them to inform all people they spied on. The law was changed in light of mass surveillance by the German agencies… Because they did spy on most of people by searching almost the whole German internet traffic but never informed anybody they got data from, and that was illegal, our government just changed the law and made it legal.

internet_user 5y ago
if they do not notify you automatically, can you ask them? are they obligated in law to disclose these records on demand? Something tells me they'd simply decide to have an active investigation on everyone from birth to death and simply decline all requests due to "ongoing investigation".
- still_grokking 5y ago
  > if they do not notify you automatically, can you ask them? are they obligated in law to disclose these records on demand? No, of course not. What the German secret services do is mostly, well, secret. One of our ministers for inner affairs said once the following in an interview as an answer to some questions about what the agencies know: "Ein Teil dieser Antworten würde die Bevölkerung verunsichern."¹ It's actually even difficult to get to know what the normal police knows about you. But there they at least have to disclosure such information if you ask as long as there is no open investigation. > Something tells me they'd simply decide to have an active investigation on everyone from birth to death and simply decline all requests due to "ongoing investigation". The German agencies don't have the capacity for such thing at the moment. I guess they really would like to have some data-centers like the NSA, but they don't have them currently. "Physical" surveillance is expensive and needs people. They also need usually some "real reasons" (like you're anti-government and you reach a lot of people online) to spy on you. What's expanding is digital mass surveillance—as it's considerably cheap. But that's a problem not only in Germany I guess… ¹ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgmys5K1UnA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgmys5K1UnA
  - deepsun 5y ago
    > don't have the capacity for such thing at the moment. Why cannot they just keep the case open? No need to do anything actively. Just in case it's needed.
    - still_grokking 5y ago
      At least on paper they can't investigate against any random people. Germany is still considered a nation of law. They need to report to that panel on secret service affairs in parliament I've mentioned, and there are laws in place for what they are allowed to look for (even you could construct something arbitrary at any time against anybody as we saw in the past; if someone needs a reason for an investigation they will find one for sure). On the other hands side, as I said, as nobody can really control what they're doing hell knows what kind of data they collect. If someone (like a board of inquiry after some scandal) asks to much questions and wants to look into things they would shred the records likely again, and every involved person "couldn't remember" anything (that last thing is a common trope before parliamentarian boards of inquiry anyway).
bserge 5y ago
Tbf, that is how they operate in many (most?) other countries, too. Why would they tell you you're a suspect or under investigation? That's counter productive, you could hide your actions better or plan an escape.
- still_grokking 5y ago
  Of course they won't tell you as long as you're under suspicion. That's normal and makes perfect sense. But after the case is closed (and there is no accusation) they should inform you so you could take legal steps to validate the rightfulness of such actions. If observation over a long time doesn't lead to accusation there is a strong pointer that this observation wasn't actually justified in the first place… As it stands there is no possibility for those affected by state surveillance to ever prove any wrongdoing of the agencies that spied on them! Now only a very small group in parliament can check cases after the fact. But they can't check mostly anything as this is I think 10 or so people against three agencies and hundreds of cases (if you take internet surveillance into account it's actually millions of cases…).
- syshum 5y ago
  This becomes a problem in over criminalized society where most people commit some violation of law with out even being fully aware of that fact or what law they violated This allows for for selective targeting and prosecution based on all manner of reasons form political to personal. It is not something we should just simply excuse away as "well everyone else does it so it valid and OK"
- iphonexyzy 5y ago
  This is how they operate in any country. A foreign agency is not gonna report to you either
  - still_grokking 5y ago
    So you thinks it's OK that an inner secret service is operating in legal vacuum for the most part? I sense some issues with this approach.

internet_user 5y ago

if they do not notify you automatically, can you ask them? are they obligated in law to disclose these records on demand? Something tells me they'd simply decide to have an active investigation on everyone from birth to death and simply decline all requests due to "ongoing investigation".

still_grokking 5y ago
> if they do not notify you automatically, can you ask them? are they obligated in law to disclose these records on demand? No, of course not. What the German secret services do is mostly, well, secret. One of our ministers for inner affairs said once the following in an interview as an answer to some questions about what the agencies know: "Ein Teil dieser Antworten würde die Bevölkerung verunsichern."¹ It's actually even difficult to get to know what the normal police knows about you. But there they at least have to disclosure such information if you ask as long as there is no open investigation. > Something tells me they'd simply decide to have an active investigation on everyone from birth to death and simply decline all requests due to "ongoing investigation". The German agencies don't have the capacity for such thing at the moment. I guess they really would like to have some data-centers like the NSA, but they don't have them currently. "Physical" surveillance is expensive and needs people. They also need usually some "real reasons" (like you're anti-government and you reach a lot of people online) to spy on you. What's expanding is digital mass surveillance—as it's considerably cheap. But that's a problem not only in Germany I guess… ¹ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgmys5K1UnA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgmys5K1UnA
- deepsun 5y ago
  > don't have the capacity for such thing at the moment. Why cannot they just keep the case open? No need to do anything actively. Just in case it's needed.
  - still_grokking 5y ago
    At least on paper they can't investigate against any random people. Germany is still considered a nation of law. They need to report to that panel on secret service affairs in parliament I've mentioned, and there are laws in place for what they are allowed to look for (even you could construct something arbitrary at any time against anybody as we saw in the past; if someone needs a reason for an investigation they will find one for sure). On the other hands side, as I said, as nobody can really control what they're doing hell knows what kind of data they collect. If someone (like a board of inquiry after some scandal) asks to much questions and wants to look into things they would shred the records likely again, and every involved person "couldn't remember" anything (that last thing is a common trope before parliamentarian boards of inquiry anyway).

bserge 5y ago

Tbf, that is how they operate in many (most?) other countries, too. Why would they tell you you're a suspect or under investigation? That's counter productive, you could hide your actions better or plan an escape.

still_grokking 5y ago
Of course they won't tell you as long as you're under suspicion. That's normal and makes perfect sense. But after the case is closed (and there is no accusation) they should inform you so you could take legal steps to validate the rightfulness of such actions. If observation over a long time doesn't lead to accusation there is a strong pointer that this observation wasn't actually justified in the first place… As it stands there is no possibility for those affected by state surveillance to ever prove any wrongdoing of the agencies that spied on them! Now only a very small group in parliament can check cases after the fact. But they can't check mostly anything as this is I think 10 or so people against three agencies and hundreds of cases (if you take internet surveillance into account it's actually millions of cases…).
syshum 5y ago
This becomes a problem in over criminalized society where most people commit some violation of law with out even being fully aware of that fact or what law they violated This allows for for selective targeting and prosecution based on all manner of reasons form political to personal. It is not something we should just simply excuse away as "well everyone else does it so it valid and OK"
iphonexyzy 5y ago
This is how they operate in any country. A foreign agency is not gonna report to you either
- still_grokking 5y ago
  So you thinks it's OK that an inner secret service is operating in legal vacuum for the most part? I sense some issues with this approach.