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As someone who began eating carnivore eighteen months ago after three plus years as a vegan (and a strict, gluten-free one at that) I can attest to the truth of

As someone who began eating carnivore eighteen months ago after three plus years as a vegan (and a strict, gluten-free one at that) I can attest to the truth of this piece. My cholesterol has risen, however, the ratio is fine and a heart scan showed ZERO calcium. I feel great, lifelong depression has lifted, my brain is much more clear and I’m as thin and muscular as ever. It truly is remarkable. We were sold a bill of goods with the whole “fat is bad” push. It’s bullsh*t.

xyzzy21 5y ago
The fat bad and cholesterol bad is also based on "linear thinking" - the problem is metabolic systems are decidedly nonlinear and have feedback loops which is 100% incompatible with linear system modeling. One of the major reasons I hold the medical and bio community is such low esteem - they don't know what they don't know yet act as if they do. Most can't manage a DoE correctly. But imagining systems? Nope!
- HPsquared 5y ago
  More generally, it sounds like a problem of too much extrapolation.
- zeusk 5y ago
  what's DoE?
  - zweifuss 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_of_experiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_of_experiments
- trombonechamp 5y ago
  > One of the major reasons I hold the medical and bio community is such low esteem - they don't know what they don't know yet act as if they do. On one hand, this is due to poor science journalism. The media loves nutritional research because telling people what they are doing wrong generates clicks. It is very easy to sensationalize. "A small correlation between celery and colon cancer in a specific population from a specific region" (or whatever) in a scientific paper becomes "Celery slowly killing you, Harvard researchers prove". One the other hand, this is how science works. We do experiments, get the results of those experiments, and try to make the best use of the data we have. Usually, the truth is much more complicated, but there are always bigger and more complicated experiments which need to be done to understand this more complicated truth. This happens all the time in all fields of science, but isn't as visible to the broader public because most research isn't all that relevant or interesting to non-scientists. It is REALLY hard to design good (ethical) experiments in nutrition. The scientific consensus now is very different than what it will be in 10 years, because we will have more data and higher quality data. This will allow researchers to continue to incorporate more complexities and nonlinear effects. So you're right in that "linear thinking" is not ideal, but a linear model is better than no model.
  - tsimionescu 5y ago
    > One the other hand, this is how science works. We do experiments, get the results of those experiments, and try to make the best use of the data we have. That is not how science works. A scientific experiment has to have enough statistical power for the claim you are trying to make. If it doesn't, then you don't make the claim. As you say, it's extremely hard to make good (I would say even decent) nutritional studies. The vast majority of nutritional studies are not even close. Why then do dieticians pretend to be medical doctors and give advice based on these studies? Why do they give advice to entire nations based on scientific-sounding gobbledygook? When you don't know something, the scientific thing to do is to say you don't know. Physicists don't claim they know how gravity works at the quantum level just because they have some models that sorta kinda work sometimes. A linear model of a non-linear phenomenon is not in any way better than no model - it's obviously worse.
supperburg 5y ago
A lot of people get CAC zero and that’s great. But we need someone who’s been carnivore for 1 or 2 years to get an angiogram to settle the heart disease debate once and for all. Because CAC still leaves the possibility of non-inflamed congestion. Paul Saladino announced he was going to get one a while ago but fell silent on it. I even DMed him about it but he never responded. I really wish someone would do an angiogram.
- chiefgeek 5y ago
  I did the heart scan after a year of carnivore AND I was still eating sugar (bad addiction, kicked six months ago). It’s now been 18+ months. I will do another in six months.
- chiefgeek 5y ago
  I’ll look into the angiogram. Very interesting. I wonder why Saladino hasn’t steeped up?
heavenlyblue 5y ago
What were you trying to achieve with a gluten-free diet btw?
- chiefgeek 5y ago
  It felt as though I had some sensitivity to gluten. I get a stuffed up nose within minutes after eating it. Overall, I was battling a high level of inflammation (homocysteine was 26; 10 is high normal, I believe) and was looking to cut out possible contributors. It worked.
hirundo 5y ago
Much the same, one year carnivore as of last week. Physically I'm greatly improved. Mentally I'm happier and less fragile, and I've been particularly productive at work. But my cholesterol has risen and my doctor wants me on statins. Brain fog is a common side effect of those. I declined. I don't believe my higher cholesterol is dangerous in a carnivore context, but even if it were, I would tend to choose a clear mind and a sudden death over a fogged mind and longer life. I also have extended strict vegan experience, and stopped partly due to brain fog.
- chiefgeek 5y ago
  I told my doctor I would not take them. No way. I haven’t felt this good in years.
- LinuxBender 5y ago
  Most doctors are also quite a bit behind on the science around cholesterol. Most of them still just measure HDL and LDL and consider LDL to be "bad". There is some hope however. Some doctors are starting to do lipid panels on the LDL to get a spectrum analysis of small dense particles to large buoyant particles. There is light at the end of the tunnel, at least for the doctors that are not being coerced into pushing statins.
- mancerayder 5y ago
  Do you have exercise habits ? I notice in this thread there is little mention of this giant portion of the heart-health puzzle, and talk of nutrition only. I've been doing weight training for years (because I don't enjoy endurance exercise) and it's kept my numbers in strong shape. I eat a vast amount of animal products (although heavily biased towards fish and eggs instead of red meat), and could not imagine for a second a vegetarian and especially vegan diet. I think a vegan diet requires supplementation (B12, and god knows what else), for one thing, and most vegans aren't doing it for health reasons but for moral ones. But I still think the biggest health killer is a lifestyle with insufficient movement in the day to day. Many people don't even walk anywhere, and their ever-increasing sizes show it.
wibagusto 5y ago
“Fat is bad push” has nothing to do with veganism. In fact the opposite: fat is essential. As a vegan I eat tubs and tubs of olives, avocados, cashews, almonds, peanuts, hazelnuts you name it—all loaded in fat. The “fat is bad” push is a product of the sugar industry and using nutrition labels to sell products to consumers based on fear. And it was an easy sell because people were getting fatter (due to sugar intake and nutrition-devoid white bread). Which brings me to gluten free: If you think you have gluten intolerance but you don’t swell up when eating whole wheat bread (e.g. no celiac disease), you’re probably eating some crappy off-the-shelf loaf with all kinds of additives. Gluten free is just as stupid as Keto diets. The only real diet is in balance. It’s real fruits, vegetables, legumes, and other plants. Meat contains MINIMAL nutritional value compared to the plant world.
- chiefgeek 5y ago
  “ Meat contains MINIMAL nutritional value compared to the plant world.” This is categorically untrue. Meat has more bioavailable vitamins than any food.
  - wibagusto 5y ago
    You’ll have to give a source on that because just looking up nutritional value of Kale (one vegetable) I think that’s a tough sell. In fact kale juice alone is proof milk is not necessary.
    - chiefgeek 5y ago
      https://www.kevinstock.io/health/vitamins-and-minerals-plants-vs-animals/ https://www.kevinstock.io/health/vitamins-and-minerals-plant... There are links to various studies in the article.
    - lambdaba 5y ago
      Absorption is what's important. It should go without saying flesh is easier to break down than cellulose (add to that that various plant compounds inhibit absorption and impose a toxic burden, e.g. oxalates, phytates, etc.)
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> As someone who began eating carnivore eighteen months ago 18 months is around 2% of your total expected lifespan. Cardiac issues take decades to build up. It’s far too early to draw conclusions about the diet after less than 2 years, especially when you spent twice as long on a vegan diet immediately before the carnivore diet.
- chiefgeek 5y ago
  Could be. I know that if I had remained vegan, I probably wouldn’t be here now. I felt terrible. There were multiple things going on with my health - both physical and emotional - and vegan was helping exactly zero of them. And I was doing it on the advice of multiple physicians, two of them “integrative/functional medicine. I’ll take the conclusions I’ve drawn so far, thank you.
  - mentos 5y ago
    I did a carnivore diet for 3 months this year it really opened my eyes to how different you can feel running on a diet without carbs/sugar. Took me about 3 weeks to transition and definitely had withdrawal symptoms with deep cravings for bread but managed to break through and found a completely new horizon on the other side. Biggest improvement was to my cognition, I could keep a bunch of nested thought bubbles up and open in my mind for much longer. My mood improved to the point where I felt almost a spiritual calm during the day and made me wonder if maybe I've been pushing through life with a low grade depression. My joints stopped cracking and some nerve pain I had from long covid completely subsided. Unfortunately I had to stop the diet because I was losing too much weight (I'm normally 5'11 155lbs but started to fall under 148lbs) and could not eat enough to remain stable. Since May I've gone off the diet and been indulging in carbs/sugar at every turn to try to get back up and above my normal weight (I'm at 165lbs now) and it has been like dropping a neutrino bomb on my cognition. I would describe my new mental state as being in a stupor. Writing this recap I'm struggling with word recall and remembering all the events of my diet and just generally feel lethargic/slow. Once I get to 170lbs I'm hoping to give the diet another go this fall and maybe be able to go for a bit longer and give me time to experiment with other calorie sources like sweet potatoes/white rice/berries. Anyways, leaving this comment here for myself as a note to reflect back on and some anecdote for anyone interested in trying the diet. I'd recommend it if you're curious.
agumonkey 5y ago
how much physical exercise do you get btw ? kudos
brandonmenc 5y ago
> As someone who began eating carnivore eighteen months ago after three plus years as a vegan From one faddish extreme to another. Anecdotally, I feel best when I eat a varied diet where ~20% of my calories come from healthy i.e. unsaturated fats and ~60% of the calories come from whole grain carbs. Serious question though: did you feel great in the early phases of your vegan diet? If so, maybe you're getting a rush from the positive feedback of adhering to a set of strict rules. > We were sold a bill of goods with the whole “fat is bad” push. Honestly, the messaging for over a decade now is that carbs are bad. No one is like, thumbing their nose at "pop nutrition" by saying this. We are definitely going to find out that this also was a horrible overcompensation.
- chiefgeek 5y ago
  I'm glad that works for you. It doesn't work for me. I went from worse than SAD (Standard American Diet) slowly into gluten free, then sort of vegetarian, then vegan. I had two different functional medicine docs prescribe a very strict elimination diet. Nothing alleviated my symptoms - fibromyalgia, brain fog, constant fatigue that required a nap daily, sore joints and a messed up lower GI. I did not feel great on the early phases of the vegan diet. I really never felt good at all while eating vegan. I also have an oxalate intolerance which means most vegan foods are not good (whereby "not good" means they make it feel as though I'm peeing razor blades). I didn't feel great initially on the Carnivore diet. In fact it took months and months to get my system cleaned out. I had diarrhea for most of the first year. I quit sugar six months ago, which as also been a huge help. I realize it may not be for everybody however right now it is for me. My doctor told me, "Whatever you're doing, keep doing it." I can go hours without eating if I have to. I never get "hangry". I eat when I'm hungry, as much as I want until I'm full. The current zeitgeist that says we all have to eat plants for optimal health is plain wrong. I'm 52 years old. I've done a lot of experimenting. Fat is not the enemy. Carbs are the enemy. Also, just about any diet that relies on drastically restricting your caloric input is bound to fail. > Honestly, the messaging for over a decade now is that carbs are bad Maybe, but for YEARS it was "fat is bad". And it isn't. It is incredibly satiating. And that messaging came from Big Ag, who completely buried the very valid research of an English scientist, John Yudkin. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-lustig-john-yudkin https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-co...
wolfi1 5y ago
fun fact: the food intake does not change cholesterol levels, the body itself produces it

xyzzy21 5y ago

The fat bad and cholesterol bad is also based on "linear thinking" - the problem is metabolic systems are decidedly nonlinear and have feedback loops which is 100% incompatible with linear system modeling. One of the major reasons I hold the medical and bio community is such low esteem - they don't know what they don't know yet act as if they do. Most can't manage a DoE correctly. But imagining systems? Nope!

HPsquared 5y ago
More generally, it sounds like a problem of too much extrapolation.
zeusk 5y ago
what's DoE?
- zweifuss 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_of_experiments https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Design_of_experiments
trombonechamp 5y ago
> One of the major reasons I hold the medical and bio community is such low esteem - they don't know what they don't know yet act as if they do. On one hand, this is due to poor science journalism. The media loves nutritional research because telling people what they are doing wrong generates clicks. It is very easy to sensationalize. "A small correlation between celery and colon cancer in a specific population from a specific region" (or whatever) in a scientific paper becomes "Celery slowly killing you, Harvard researchers prove". One the other hand, this is how science works. We do experiments, get the results of those experiments, and try to make the best use of the data we have. Usually, the truth is much more complicated, but there are always bigger and more complicated experiments which need to be done to understand this more complicated truth. This happens all the time in all fields of science, but isn't as visible to the broader public because most research isn't all that relevant or interesting to non-scientists. It is REALLY hard to design good (ethical) experiments in nutrition. The scientific consensus now is very different than what it will be in 10 years, because we will have more data and higher quality data. This will allow researchers to continue to incorporate more complexities and nonlinear effects. So you're right in that "linear thinking" is not ideal, but a linear model is better than no model.
- tsimionescu 5y ago
  > One the other hand, this is how science works. We do experiments, get the results of those experiments, and try to make the best use of the data we have. That is not how science works. A scientific experiment has to have enough statistical power for the claim you are trying to make. If it doesn't, then you don't make the claim. As you say, it's extremely hard to make good (I would say even decent) nutritional studies. The vast majority of nutritional studies are not even close. Why then do dieticians pretend to be medical doctors and give advice based on these studies? Why do they give advice to entire nations based on scientific-sounding gobbledygook? When you don't know something, the scientific thing to do is to say you don't know. Physicists don't claim they know how gravity works at the quantum level just because they have some models that sorta kinda work sometimes. A linear model of a non-linear phenomenon is not in any way better than no model - it's obviously worse.

supperburg 5y ago

A lot of people get CAC zero and that’s great. But we need someone who’s been carnivore for 1 or 2 years to get an angiogram to settle the heart disease debate once and for all. Because CAC still leaves the possibility of non-inflamed congestion. Paul Saladino announced he was going to get one a while ago but fell silent on it. I even DMed him about it but he never responded. I really wish someone would do an angiogram.

chiefgeek 5y ago
I did the heart scan after a year of carnivore AND I was still eating sugar (bad addiction, kicked six months ago). It’s now been 18+ months. I will do another in six months.
chiefgeek 5y ago
I’ll look into the angiogram. Very interesting. I wonder why Saladino hasn’t steeped up?

heavenlyblue 5y ago

What were you trying to achieve with a gluten-free diet btw?

chiefgeek 5y ago
It felt as though I had some sensitivity to gluten. I get a stuffed up nose within minutes after eating it. Overall, I was battling a high level of inflammation (homocysteine was 26; 10 is high normal, I believe) and was looking to cut out possible contributors. It worked.

hirundo 5y ago

Much the same, one year carnivore as of last week. Physically I'm greatly improved. Mentally I'm happier and less fragile, and I've been particularly productive at work. But my cholesterol has risen and my doctor wants me on statins. Brain fog is a common side effect of those. I declined. I don't believe my higher cholesterol is dangerous in a carnivore context, but even if it were, I would tend to choose a clear mind and a sudden death over a fogged mind and longer life. I also have extended strict vegan experience, and stopped partly due to brain fog.

chiefgeek 5y ago
I told my doctor I would not take them. No way. I haven’t felt this good in years.
LinuxBender 5y ago
Most doctors are also quite a bit behind on the science around cholesterol. Most of them still just measure HDL and LDL and consider LDL to be "bad". There is some hope however. Some doctors are starting to do lipid panels on the LDL to get a spectrum analysis of small dense particles to large buoyant particles. There is light at the end of the tunnel, at least for the doctors that are not being coerced into pushing statins.
mancerayder 5y ago
Do you have exercise habits ? I notice in this thread there is little mention of this giant portion of the heart-health puzzle, and talk of nutrition only. I've been doing weight training for years (because I don't enjoy endurance exercise) and it's kept my numbers in strong shape. I eat a vast amount of animal products (although heavily biased towards fish and eggs instead of red meat), and could not imagine for a second a vegetarian and especially vegan diet. I think a vegan diet requires supplementation (B12, and god knows what else), for one thing, and most vegans aren't doing it for health reasons but for moral ones. But I still think the biggest health killer is a lifestyle with insufficient movement in the day to day. Many people don't even walk anywhere, and their ever-increasing sizes show it.

wibagusto 5y ago

“Fat is bad push” has nothing to do with veganism. In fact the opposite: fat is essential. As a vegan I eat tubs and tubs of olives, avocados, cashews, almonds, peanuts, hazelnuts you name it—all loaded in fat. The “fat is bad” push is a product of the sugar industry and using nutrition labels to sell products to consumers based on fear. And it was an easy sell because people were getting fatter (due to sugar intake and nutrition-devoid white bread). Which brings me to gluten free: If you think you have gluten intolerance but you don’t swell up when eating whole wheat bread (e.g. no celiac disease), you’re probably eating some crappy off-the-shelf loaf with all kinds of additives. Gluten free is just as stupid as Keto diets. The only real diet is in balance. It’s real fruits, vegetables, legumes, and other plants. Meat contains MINIMAL nutritional value compared to the plant world.

chiefgeek 5y ago
“ Meat contains MINIMAL nutritional value compared to the plant world.” This is categorically untrue. Meat has more bioavailable vitamins than any food.
- wibagusto 5y ago
  You’ll have to give a source on that because just looking up nutritional value of Kale (one vegetable) I think that’s a tough sell. In fact kale juice alone is proof milk is not necessary.
  - chiefgeek 5y ago
    https://www.kevinstock.io/health/vitamins-and-minerals-plants-vs-animals/ https://www.kevinstock.io/health/vitamins-and-minerals-plant... There are links to various studies in the article.
  - lambdaba 5y ago
    Absorption is what's important. It should go without saying flesh is easier to break down than cellulose (add to that that various plant compounds inhibit absorption and impose a toxic burden, e.g. oxalates, phytates, etc.)

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> As someone who began eating carnivore eighteen months ago 18 months is around 2% of your total expected lifespan. Cardiac issues take decades to build up. It’s far too early to draw conclusions about the diet after less than 2 years, especially when you spent twice as long on a vegan diet immediately before the carnivore diet.

chiefgeek 5y ago
Could be. I know that if I had remained vegan, I probably wouldn’t be here now. I felt terrible. There were multiple things going on with my health - both physical and emotional - and vegan was helping exactly zero of them. And I was doing it on the advice of multiple physicians, two of them “integrative/functional medicine. I’ll take the conclusions I’ve drawn so far, thank you.
- mentos 5y ago
  I did a carnivore diet for 3 months this year it really opened my eyes to how different you can feel running on a diet without carbs/sugar. Took me about 3 weeks to transition and definitely had withdrawal symptoms with deep cravings for bread but managed to break through and found a completely new horizon on the other side. Biggest improvement was to my cognition, I could keep a bunch of nested thought bubbles up and open in my mind for much longer. My mood improved to the point where I felt almost a spiritual calm during the day and made me wonder if maybe I've been pushing through life with a low grade depression. My joints stopped cracking and some nerve pain I had from long covid completely subsided. Unfortunately I had to stop the diet because I was losing too much weight (I'm normally 5'11 155lbs but started to fall under 148lbs) and could not eat enough to remain stable. Since May I've gone off the diet and been indulging in carbs/sugar at every turn to try to get back up and above my normal weight (I'm at 165lbs now) and it has been like dropping a neutrino bomb on my cognition. I would describe my new mental state as being in a stupor. Writing this recap I'm struggling with word recall and remembering all the events of my diet and just generally feel lethargic/slow. Once I get to 170lbs I'm hoping to give the diet another go this fall and maybe be able to go for a bit longer and give me time to experiment with other calorie sources like sweet potatoes/white rice/berries. Anyways, leaving this comment here for myself as a note to reflect back on and some anecdote for anyone interested in trying the diet. I'd recommend it if you're curious.

agumonkey 5y ago

how much physical exercise do you get btw ? kudos

brandonmenc 5y ago

> As someone who began eating carnivore eighteen months ago after three plus years as a vegan From one faddish extreme to another. Anecdotally, I feel best when I eat a varied diet where ~20% of my calories come from healthy i.e. unsaturated fats and ~60% of the calories come from whole grain carbs. Serious question though: did you feel great in the early phases of your vegan diet? If so, maybe you're getting a rush from the positive feedback of adhering to a set of strict rules. > We were sold a bill of goods with the whole “fat is bad” push. Honestly, the messaging for over a decade now is that carbs are bad. No one is like, thumbing their nose at "pop nutrition" by saying this. We are definitely going to find out that this also was a horrible overcompensation.

chiefgeek 5y ago
I'm glad that works for you. It doesn't work for me. I went from worse than SAD (Standard American Diet) slowly into gluten free, then sort of vegetarian, then vegan. I had two different functional medicine docs prescribe a very strict elimination diet. Nothing alleviated my symptoms - fibromyalgia, brain fog, constant fatigue that required a nap daily, sore joints and a messed up lower GI. I did not feel great on the early phases of the vegan diet. I really never felt good at all while eating vegan. I also have an oxalate intolerance which means most vegan foods are not good (whereby "not good" means they make it feel as though I'm peeing razor blades). I didn't feel great initially on the Carnivore diet. In fact it took months and months to get my system cleaned out. I had diarrhea for most of the first year. I quit sugar six months ago, which as also been a huge help. I realize it may not be for everybody however right now it is for me. My doctor told me, "Whatever you're doing, keep doing it." I can go hours without eating if I have to. I never get "hangry". I eat when I'm hungry, as much as I want until I'm full. The current zeitgeist that says we all have to eat plants for optimal health is plain wrong. I'm 52 years old. I've done a lot of experimenting. Fat is not the enemy. Carbs are the enemy. Also, just about any diet that relies on drastically restricting your caloric input is bound to fail. > Honestly, the messaging for over a decade now is that carbs are bad Maybe, but for YEARS it was "fat is bad". And it isn't. It is incredibly satiating. And that messaging came from Big Ag, who completely buried the very valid research of an English scientist, John Yudkin. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-conspiracy-robert-lustig-john-yudkin https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/07/the-sugar-co...

wolfi1 5y ago

fun fact: the food intake does not change cholesterol levels, the body itself produces it