5 ms·

> Bitcoin is open source, the original founder is nowhere to be found, there were no VCs involved in its creation or in the distribution of the coins and the en

by dpedu 5y ago

> Bitcoin is open source, the original founder is nowhere to be found, there were no VCs involved in its creation or in the distribution of the coins and the entire network is run out in the open. The Bitcoin network is a commons. Hmmm. You've conveniently danced around any suggestion or mention of the fact that the "creator" of bitcoin mined 1.1 million - 1/20th of all bitcoins that will ever exist(!) - coins in private before launching bitcoin publicly and holds them to this day.

toomim 5y ago
And he never spent them. It's the most selfless act I've witnessed in my life.
- flipbrad 5y ago
  Might not be especially hard to use them as collateral for a loan, though. Live like a king and then eventually sell them, repaying the loan from the (now rather generous) proceeds.
  - rfd4sgmk8u 5y ago
    This absolutely is not the case, as any collateralize loans require you to transfer custody to a 3rd party making the loan. Otherwise, you could just steal the coins straight after handing over the private keys. And even if that wasn't the case, the loaner will want exclusive control and move them to another key they control anyway. If it was a loan, you would have blockchain records of movement of Satoshi coins. This can be proven not to be the case, and so we can be quite confident there was no loans to Satoshi.
    - flipbrad 5y ago
      Not sure I understand. Why couldn't you just escrow the private key with a mutually trusted third party, and back the whole thing with a contract. You know - with a traditional bank, that has a contract with you, knows your identity, and can report you to the authorities - and sue you - if you default or sell the collateral you've provided for the loan?
- mdoms 5y ago
  Because he's dead.
jcbrand 5y ago
Those coins have never moved in all these years. You would think that Satoshi would want to spend and enjoy some of his riches right? To me this points towards Satoshi likely being dead (e.g. him being Hal Finney). Also, AFAIK those were mined because Satoshi was the first miner, not because he purposefully kept it private in order to get the most for himself before anyone else could participate.
- dpedu 5y ago
  Some of those coins moved in the last year or so [1]. Just because they haven't moved for a long time doesn't mean they won't tomorrow. 1. https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/satoshi-is-that-you-bitcoin-moves-for-the-first-time-in-11-years https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/satoshi-is-that...
  - jcbrand 5y ago
    Those are coins from 2010, not 2009 when Satoshi started mining and they're not from the same addresses.
- rfd4sgmk8u 5y ago
  Satoshi isn't Hal, and please stop suggesting it is. You put Hal's family in danger with this nonsense.
rssoconnor 5y ago
This isn't true. The genesis block references a Times headline published on Jan 3rd 2009, so that block was created no earlier than that. The source code was published and publicly available on Jan 9th 2009, which is 6 days later. Blocks were mined much slower than the target of every 10 minutes in the beginning. Block number 17 was mined on Jan 10th 2009. At 50 bitcoins per block we are talking at most 850 bitcoin or so mined "in private" before launching bitcoin.
- dpedu 5y ago
  https://whale-alert.medium.com/the-satoshi-fortune-e49cf73f9a9b https://whale-alert.medium.com/the-satoshi-fortune-e49cf73f9...
  - rssoconnor 5y ago
    Even if that analysis were accurate, that isn't mining "in private" before "publicly launching" as you claimed.
    - dpedu 5y ago
      That's fair, my memory was incorrect. However, I don't think that makes a difference w.r.t. calling the coin premined.
      - tluyben2 5y ago
        I do not think the term should be used in this case because anyone could've mined at that point; others that actually did pre mine did so when only a few insiders could as well, like a pre IPO.
leppr 5y ago
As far as we know Satoshi himself was rather selfless. The Patoshi[1] miner suggests he actually calibrated his own mining to foster the network's health and decentralization in its early days, in detriment of his own output. I'm absolutely on board to criticize the amazing amount of grifters in crypto. But letting this corrupt the image of the few people like Satoshi (and Vitalik Buterin and many others basically absent from the media), who willingly strayed from the opportunity to be among the richest individuals in the world, in order to instead focus on building something they think can better humanity, is not right. You don't need to look far to find the real grifters, they're showing ads in US media and paying millions to celebrities for product endorsements right now. [1]: https://bitslog.com/2020/06/22/a-new-mystery-in-patoshi-timestamps/ https://bitslog.com/2020/06/22/a-new-mystery-in-patoshi-time...

by dpedu 5y ago

toomim 5y ago

And he never spent them. It's the most selfless act I've witnessed in my life.

flipbrad 5y ago
Might not be especially hard to use them as collateral for a loan, though. Live like a king and then eventually sell them, repaying the loan from the (now rather generous) proceeds.
- rfd4sgmk8u 5y ago
  This absolutely is not the case, as any collateralize loans require you to transfer custody to a 3rd party making the loan. Otherwise, you could just steal the coins straight after handing over the private keys. And even if that wasn't the case, the loaner will want exclusive control and move them to another key they control anyway. If it was a loan, you would have blockchain records of movement of Satoshi coins. This can be proven not to be the case, and so we can be quite confident there was no loans to Satoshi.
  - flipbrad 5y ago
    Not sure I understand. Why couldn't you just escrow the private key with a mutually trusted third party, and back the whole thing with a contract. You know - with a traditional bank, that has a contract with you, knows your identity, and can report you to the authorities - and sue you - if you default or sell the collateral you've provided for the loan?
mdoms 5y ago
Because he's dead.

jcbrand 5y ago

Those coins have never moved in all these years. You would think that Satoshi would want to spend and enjoy some of his riches right? To me this points towards Satoshi likely being dead (e.g. him being Hal Finney). Also, AFAIK those were mined because Satoshi was the first miner, not because he purposefully kept it private in order to get the most for himself before anyone else could participate.

dpedu 5y ago
Some of those coins moved in the last year or so [1]. Just because they haven't moved for a long time doesn't mean they won't tomorrow. 1. https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/satoshi-is-that-you-bitcoin-moves-for-the-first-time-in-11-years https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/satoshi-is-that...
- jcbrand 5y ago
  Those are coins from 2010, not 2009 when Satoshi started mining and they're not from the same addresses.
rfd4sgmk8u 5y ago
Satoshi isn't Hal, and please stop suggesting it is. You put Hal's family in danger with this nonsense.

rssoconnor 5y ago

This isn't true. The genesis block references a Times headline published on Jan 3rd 2009, so that block was created no earlier than that. The source code was published and publicly available on Jan 9th 2009, which is 6 days later. Blocks were mined much slower than the target of every 10 minutes in the beginning. Block number 17 was mined on Jan 10th 2009. At 50 bitcoins per block we are talking at most 850 bitcoin or so mined "in private" before launching bitcoin.

dpedu 5y ago
https://whale-alert.medium.com/the-satoshi-fortune-e49cf73f9a9b https://whale-alert.medium.com/the-satoshi-fortune-e49cf73f9...
- rssoconnor 5y ago
  Even if that analysis were accurate, that isn't mining "in private" before "publicly launching" as you claimed.
  - dpedu 5y ago
    That's fair, my memory was incorrect. However, I don't think that makes a difference w.r.t. calling the coin premined.
    - tluyben2 5y ago
      I do not think the term should be used in this case because anyone could've mined at that point; others that actually did pre mine did so when only a few insiders could as well, like a pre IPO.

leppr 5y ago

As far as we know Satoshi himself was rather selfless. The Patoshi[1] miner suggests he actually calibrated his own mining to foster the network's health and decentralization in its early days, in detriment of his own output. I'm absolutely on board to criticize the amazing amount of grifters in crypto. But letting this corrupt the image of the few people like Satoshi (and Vitalik Buterin and many others basically absent from the media), who willingly strayed from the opportunity to be among the richest individuals in the world, in order to instead focus on building something they think can better humanity, is not right. You don't need to look far to find the real grifters, they're showing ads in US media and paying millions to celebrities for product endorsements right now. [1]: https://bitslog.com/2020/06/22/a-new-mystery-in-patoshi-timestamps/ https://bitslog.com/2020/06/22/a-new-mystery-in-patoshi-time...