10 ms·

Sometimes collaboration goes nowhere: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217

forgotpwd16 5y ago
>Enough spam for today. Locking the issue. Locked as expected. But really? Well-written written arguments from users and developers is considered spam?
- OJFord 5y ago
  The worst bit IMO is that that promptly followed: > I've created a new thread that hopefully is a bit more relevant. Continue the conversation here > ['here' marked as duplicate of 'this' and closed]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- alxlaz 5y ago
  On the Gnome bug tracker? Yes.
  - gnulinux 5y ago
    But why, I don't understand. These conversations need to be had somewhere, why not in a bug tracker where developer said they won't fix it? There already is an argument not to fix it, why can't others support fixing it?
    - OJFord 5y ago
      I don't think GP means it's good or that they agree with it. Just like 'oh yeah, that's to be expected there...'
      - gnulinux 5y ago
        Again, I don't understand why this is expected. I'm a software engineer and if someone said "closing this because principle! even though user wants it", I will most definitely support my position somewhere. Since this is a community project, why can't that place be public bugtracker instead of private emails?
        OJFord 5y ago
        I just mean that the other commenter's expecting it (I think) from experience, saying that that's normal there or that it doesn't come as a surprise to them. Again, not saying it's good and fine or that they think that.
        alxlaz 5y ago
        It's not expected in general, it's the kind of thing I expect from Gnome, and specifically, on Gnome's bug tracker.
        BrightGlow 5y ago
        What's not to understand? Feature requests are closed if there are no plans to implement a certain feature. The developers are just being honest about their plans. Users wanting it or making arguments as to why they want it is irrelevant. Surely there have been times when you've said "no we're not going to implement that feature"?
    - Ajedi32 5y ago
      Typically bug trackers are for tracking bugs; not having discussions about the direction of the project. In some open source projects feature requests in general are entirely off topic in the issue tracker (though I'm not sure if that's true for Gnome).
- ta988 5y ago
  Unfortunately GNOME development team has been more interested in hypothetical users than real users.
  - dkarl 5y ago
    Oh, dear. Are they still chasing my grandmother? My grandmother has been dead for several years now, and my mom barely uses a laptop anymore, since she prefers her tablet.
    - ayushnix 5y ago
      Someone would have to really despise their grandmother if they install Linux on her desktop, doesn't matter which DE it is. I guess some people out there do like moron-friendly UI and UX.
      - skinkestek 5y ago
        A granddad I think (he was at least old enough to be one) taught me that Ubuntu was a usable not too bad looking Gnome distro back in 2006 or so... Of course in my opinion Ubuntu isn't the same now as then but on the other hand KDE Neon is now even better.
- willcipriano 5y ago
  To the narcissist any criticism of anything they have done, believed, enjoyed or have been involved in is a personal attack, no matter how you phrase it. To you and I, we see a respectful conversation. In the view of the narcissist you might as well have been screaming personal insults at them. When you see someone getting into a screaming match about why Playstation is better than XBox it may indicate narcissism. If the screamer had chosen the second best option, that would imply they aren't perfect and that isn't something a narcissist is able to process. The internet just allows for the XBox and Playstation selecting narcissists to find one another.
- BrightGlow 5y ago
  >Well-written written arguments from users and developers is considered spam? Yes. The bug tracker is not a place to have an argument. The correct place for that would be a mailing list.
jchw 5y ago
Option A: applications can continue to do what they’ve done for nearly 30 years and rely on system title bars. This will work everywhere — X11 GNOME, KDE, SwayWM, macOS, Windows, BeOS,… except GNOME on Wayland, and it will feel native. Option B: applications can choose between GTK 3/4 (not exactly a fan favorite) and get native looking title bars only on GNOME (without extra work — also only supports an out-of-date spec for native window frames on Wayland) or they can use libdecoration (or libdecor or whatever) which appears to be persistently not ready for prime time, and will still not look native in most Wayland compositors. Honest to goodness, apps should just force themselves into X11 mode on GNOME until the compositor is fixed. The CSD initiative is a broken idea.
- BrightGlow 5y ago
  >applications can continue to do what they’ve done for nearly 30 years and rely on system title bars. This will work everywhere This isn't true, some X11 window managers don't draw any title bars. Anyway this isn't a problem if you link against GTK or libdecor. Yeah it's broken if you're trying to work against the system and do things in the inconsistent way that they were done in X11, so... don't do that?
  - jchw 5y ago
    Does libdecor even support XDG Decoration? If not, no thanks. Sorry, but if you create a brand new problem for us to all deal with I expect you to have a solution too. If it looks or feels non-native on KDE it’s still broken… And telling me all Linux apps they should link against GTK would make me angry if it wasn’t so stupid. P.S. edit: I’d just to like to add: - Please don’t take my harsh tone too personally. I’m not pissed off at people, I am pissed off at their initiatives sometimes though. I don’t really harbor any ill will towards individual developers. I think if you make decisions that impact an ecosystem it’s only natural that strong emotions will emerge. - The main reason why GNOME solutions are not really landing that well is specifically because they are attacking the problem more from GNOME’s philosophical standpoint than from the standpoint of what is best for applications. KDE does not appear to be embodying the CSD initiative, which is actually Good for GNOME users, since KDE apps will likely feel a ton more native in GNOME as a result. Certainly more than GNOME apps do in KDE… but it also means that libdecor is kind of moot, because what we as app developers really want is one solution that gives us fully native basic window borders everywhere. And to do that, we need a solution that starts from the common ground (xdg-decoration) then goes into special cases (GNOME, Weston, etc.)

forgotpwd16 5y ago

>Enough spam for today. Locking the issue. Locked as expected. But really? Well-written written arguments from users and developers is considered spam?

OJFord 5y ago
The worst bit IMO is that that promptly followed: > I've created a new thread that hopefully is a bit more relevant. Continue the conversation here > ['here' marked as duplicate of 'this' and closed]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
alxlaz 5y ago
On the Gnome bug tracker? Yes.
- gnulinux 5y ago
  But why, I don't understand. These conversations need to be had somewhere, why not in a bug tracker where developer said they won't fix it? There already is an argument not to fix it, why can't others support fixing it?
  - OJFord 5y ago
    I don't think GP means it's good or that they agree with it. Just like 'oh yeah, that's to be expected there...'
    - gnulinux 5y ago
      Again, I don't understand why this is expected. I'm a software engineer and if someone said "closing this because principle! even though user wants it", I will most definitely support my position somewhere. Since this is a community project, why can't that place be public bugtracker instead of private emails?
      - OJFord 5y ago
        I just mean that the other commenter's expecting it (I think) from experience, saying that that's normal there or that it doesn't come as a surprise to them. Again, not saying it's good and fine or that they think that.
      - alxlaz 5y ago
        It's not expected in general, it's the kind of thing I expect from Gnome, and specifically, on Gnome's bug tracker.
      - BrightGlow 5y ago
        What's not to understand? Feature requests are closed if there are no plans to implement a certain feature. The developers are just being honest about their plans. Users wanting it or making arguments as to why they want it is irrelevant. Surely there have been times when you've said "no we're not going to implement that feature"?
  - Ajedi32 5y ago
    Typically bug trackers are for tracking bugs; not having discussions about the direction of the project. In some open source projects feature requests in general are entirely off topic in the issue tracker (though I'm not sure if that's true for Gnome).
ta988 5y ago
Unfortunately GNOME development team has been more interested in hypothetical users than real users.
- dkarl 5y ago
  Oh, dear. Are they still chasing my grandmother? My grandmother has been dead for several years now, and my mom barely uses a laptop anymore, since she prefers her tablet.
  - ayushnix 5y ago
    Someone would have to really despise their grandmother if they install Linux on her desktop, doesn't matter which DE it is. I guess some people out there do like moron-friendly UI and UX.
    - skinkestek 5y ago
      A granddad I think (he was at least old enough to be one) taught me that Ubuntu was a usable not too bad looking Gnome distro back in 2006 or so... Of course in my opinion Ubuntu isn't the same now as then but on the other hand KDE Neon is now even better.
willcipriano 5y ago
To the narcissist any criticism of anything they have done, believed, enjoyed or have been involved in is a personal attack, no matter how you phrase it. To you and I, we see a respectful conversation. In the view of the narcissist you might as well have been screaming personal insults at them. When you see someone getting into a screaming match about why Playstation is better than XBox it may indicate narcissism. If the screamer had chosen the second best option, that would imply they aren't perfect and that isn't something a narcissist is able to process. The internet just allows for the XBox and Playstation selecting narcissists to find one another.
BrightGlow 5y ago
>Well-written written arguments from users and developers is considered spam? Yes. The bug tracker is not a place to have an argument. The correct place for that would be a mailing list.

jchw 5y ago

Option A: applications can continue to do what they’ve done for nearly 30 years and rely on system title bars. This will work everywhere — X11 GNOME, KDE, SwayWM, macOS, Windows, BeOS,… except GNOME on Wayland, and it will feel native. Option B: applications can choose between GTK 3/4 (not exactly a fan favorite) and get native looking title bars only on GNOME (without extra work — also only supports an out-of-date spec for native window frames on Wayland) or they can use libdecoration (or libdecor or whatever) which appears to be persistently not ready for prime time, and will still not look native in most Wayland compositors. Honest to goodness, apps should just force themselves into X11 mode on GNOME until the compositor is fixed. The CSD initiative is a broken idea.

BrightGlow 5y ago
>applications can continue to do what they’ve done for nearly 30 years and rely on system title bars. This will work everywhere This isn't true, some X11 window managers don't draw any title bars. Anyway this isn't a problem if you link against GTK or libdecor. Yeah it's broken if you're trying to work against the system and do things in the inconsistent way that they were done in X11, so... don't do that?
- jchw 5y ago
  Does libdecor even support XDG Decoration? If not, no thanks. Sorry, but if you create a brand new problem for us to all deal with I expect you to have a solution too. If it looks or feels non-native on KDE it’s still broken… And telling me all Linux apps they should link against GTK would make me angry if it wasn’t so stupid. P.S. edit: I’d just to like to add: - Please don’t take my harsh tone too personally. I’m not pissed off at people, I am pissed off at their initiatives sometimes though. I don’t really harbor any ill will towards individual developers. I think if you make decisions that impact an ecosystem it’s only natural that strong emotions will emerge. - The main reason why GNOME solutions are not really landing that well is specifically because they are attacking the problem more from GNOME’s philosophical standpoint than from the standpoint of what is best for applications. KDE does not appear to be embodying the CSD initiative, which is actually Good for GNOME users, since KDE apps will likely feel a ton more native in GNOME as a result. Certainly more than GNOME apps do in KDE… but it also means that libdecor is kind of moot, because what we as app developers really want is one solution that gives us fully native basic window borders everywhere. And to do that, we need a solution that starts from the common ground (xdg-decoration) then goes into special cases (GNOME, Weston, etc.)