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This "meme" is the core of most useless, destroying DE wars in the Linux community. An example of how such a limited case can fuel beliefs of one desktop being

This "meme" is the core of most useless, destroying DE wars in the Linux community. An example of how such a limited case can fuel beliefs of one desktop being "better" than the other, and the latter being something to continuously joke on. The lack of collaboration between desktops is, in my opinion, at the core of the fragmentation that makes Linux desktops still appear so far from their proprietary counterparts. This is not to say that either desktop is perfect in vision or implementation, of course, but the "GNOME vs KDE flame wars" are just childish talk. Mature criticism and, especially, collaboration is what both desktops need.

KozmoNau7 5y ago
I agree that collaboration is always desirable, and that common standards are beneficial to everyone. But the GTK filepicker is simply an embarrassment, there's no other word for it. For all of the effort that has been spent on everything else Gnome-related, adding thumbnails to the filepicker would have been an extremely easy win. The current implentation is at Win 3.x levels of design and experience.
- Cloudef 5y ago
  I've always wondered why file picker has to be so tightly integrated into GUI toolkit. Separate program outputting the selected path(s) sounds like much nicer design, and makes it easier to implement alternative file pickers.
  - prussian 5y ago
    I believe that is the purpose of the xdg portals specification. https://flatpak.github.io/xdg-desktop-portal/portal-docs.html https://flatpak.github.io/xdg-desktop-portal/portal-docs.htm...
    - Cloudef 5y ago
      Not really >The FileChooser portal allows sandboxed applications to ask the user for access to files outside the sandbox. The portal backend will present the user with a file chooser dialog. In addition it being a dbus api for communicating outside a sandbox
      - prussian 5y ago
        Not really how? https://github.com/ranchester2/nautilus-as-file-chooser-poc https://github.com/ranchester2/nautilus-as-file-chooser-poc This is a standardized GTK workflow that works in and out of flatpak.
        Cloudef 5y ago
        I was under impression the backend has to implement all of the API to do that. Nice to know it's enough to have dbus service that listens to a single call. I might do this to replace file picker on my machine. It's still baffling however, how fork + exec <-> pipe can't be used for this. Especially considering that under all that dbus cruft the PoC essentially does this: https://github.com/ranchester2/nautilus-as-file-chooser-poc/blob/master/portal/file_chooser.py#L18-L19 https://github.com/ranchester2/nautilus-as-file-chooser-poc/...
        BrightGlow 5y ago
        Using fork and exec with a pipe is not going to work within a sandbox. That "cruft" is necessary for the thing to work...
        Cloudef 5y ago
        I get why they invented this for flatpak (Even though it still could be done with processes and namespaces), but my original point was wondering why they did not originally use fork, exec and pipe.
        BrightGlow 5y ago
marcodiego 5y ago
Although they disagree in many aspects, kde and gnome community have, AFAICS, had a healthy relationship for many years now. They collaborate with each other, implement common standards and even held events together. The adoption and popularization of ICCCWM, xdg-tools, PackageKit and even the support to wayland, pipewire and flatpaks are result of that. Flame wars about what DE is best reminds of the days when people thought you were a 'hacker' just because you used linux. Or better, when people used linux just because they thought people would think they were hackers.
forgotpwd16 5y ago
This meme isn't a limited case and it's representative of the mindset that GNOME has. Extremely focused in one "vision" disregarding the opinions and issues of users.
- Gualdrapo 5y ago
  Alas it does not happen only on GNOME. For example, mentioning how irrational is that to this day GIMP has no dedicated tool to draw basic geometric shapes (rectangles, ovals) as every other image editor does, even the most basic ones, can get you a lecture about how GIMP is free software, its lack of funding, that (allegedly) those tools are irrelevant and go against their philosophy, downvotes, bans...
  - BrightGlow 5y ago
    I don't get this post. You listed several rational reasons why it has no tool to do that: >GIMP is free software, its lack of funding, that (allegedly) those tools are irrelevant If you have a specific feature request, you might consider checking the bug tracker for an existing issue. If there is one, then it's not helpful to mention it any further. The developers already know what the request is. From that point on the only helpful thing you can do is to contribute code, designs, etc towards getting the feature done. To illustrate, have you ever had somebody sitting behind you while you work who keeps repeatedly saying things like "are you working on that thing for me yet? are you done yet? when will you be done?" until you finish? It's kind of like that. Doing that doesn't help the person go any faster.
  - TLLtchvL8KZ 5y ago
    GIMP is crap, the reason they make up all those excuses is because they have nothing better than it. The majority of them talking online seem to think GIMP is a superior image manipulation tool than Photoshop on a technical level despite the fact gimp cannot even simply or reliably draw a circle.
    - BrightGlow 5y ago
      Your comment's really negative and disrespectful, please don't do that. If your test for drawing programs is "makes it simple to draw a circle" than Microsoft Paint would be better than both of them.
Cloudef 5y ago
Sometimes collaboration goes nowhere: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217
- forgotpwd16 5y ago
  >Enough spam for today. Locking the issue. Locked as expected. But really? Well-written written arguments from users and developers is considered spam?
  - OJFord 5y ago
    The worst bit IMO is that that promptly followed: > I've created a new thread that hopefully is a bit more relevant. Continue the conversation here > ['here' marked as duplicate of 'this' and closed]
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - alxlaz 5y ago
    On the Gnome bug tracker? Yes.
    - gnulinux 5y ago
      But why, I don't understand. These conversations need to be had somewhere, why not in a bug tracker where developer said they won't fix it? There already is an argument not to fix it, why can't others support fixing it?
      - OJFord 5y ago
        I don't think GP means it's good or that they agree with it. Just like 'oh yeah, that's to be expected there...'
        5y ago
simion314 5y ago
File picking is a very important thing, I am sorry if is hard to implement but some pathetic workaround or some simplicity excuse is not working with many users.
whywhywhywhy 5y ago
> An example of how such a limited case can fuel beliefs of one desktop being "better" than the other Disagree completely, if they don't care to add such a relatively basic feature that every other environment has and don't care if their users have a 90s level experience opening documents which users do multiple times a day then why would you expect any of the rest of the system to have any care and attention paid to it?
- BrightGlow 5y ago
  Welcome to Linux on the desktop, where every project has no money and no developers and is decades behind Windows and Mac. It's been like this the entire time I've been using Linux. But somehow, some people still manage to use it and get work done.
zanc 5y ago
>Linux desktops Linux is a kernel.
- dsr_ 5y ago
  ... and desktops running operating systems with a Linux kernel are called Linux desktops when it doesn't matter much which distribution is being discussed.
  - maccolgan 5y ago
    If you run Android in desktop mode, would that be considered a Linux desktop?
    - dsr_ 5y ago
      Sure, in much the same way that a ChromeOS box is a Linux box but a MacOS box is not, but both of them are UNIX boxes. Which terminology you use depends on what you want to emphasize.

KozmoNau7 5y ago

I agree that collaboration is always desirable, and that common standards are beneficial to everyone. But the GTK filepicker is simply an embarrassment, there's no other word for it. For all of the effort that has been spent on everything else Gnome-related, adding thumbnails to the filepicker would have been an extremely easy win. The current implentation is at Win 3.x levels of design and experience.

Cloudef 5y ago
I've always wondered why file picker has to be so tightly integrated into GUI toolkit. Separate program outputting the selected path(s) sounds like much nicer design, and makes it easier to implement alternative file pickers.
- prussian 5y ago
  I believe that is the purpose of the xdg portals specification. https://flatpak.github.io/xdg-desktop-portal/portal-docs.html https://flatpak.github.io/xdg-desktop-portal/portal-docs.htm...
  - Cloudef 5y ago
    Not really >The FileChooser portal allows sandboxed applications to ask the user for access to files outside the sandbox. The portal backend will present the user with a file chooser dialog. In addition it being a dbus api for communicating outside a sandbox
    - prussian 5y ago
      Not really how? https://github.com/ranchester2/nautilus-as-file-chooser-poc https://github.com/ranchester2/nautilus-as-file-chooser-poc This is a standardized GTK workflow that works in and out of flatpak.
      - Cloudef 5y ago
        I was under impression the backend has to implement all of the API to do that. Nice to know it's enough to have dbus service that listens to a single call. I might do this to replace file picker on my machine. It's still baffling however, how fork + exec <-> pipe can't be used for this. Especially considering that under all that dbus cruft the PoC essentially does this: https://github.com/ranchester2/nautilus-as-file-chooser-poc/blob/master/portal/file_chooser.py#L18-L19 https://github.com/ranchester2/nautilus-as-file-chooser-poc/...
        BrightGlow 5y ago
        Using fork and exec with a pipe is not going to work within a sandbox. That "cruft" is necessary for the thing to work...
        Cloudef 5y ago
        I get why they invented this for flatpak (Even though it still could be done with processes and namespaces), but my original point was wondering why they did not originally use fork, exec and pipe.
        BrightGlow 5y ago

marcodiego 5y ago

Although they disagree in many aspects, kde and gnome community have, AFAICS, had a healthy relationship for many years now. They collaborate with each other, implement common standards and even held events together. The adoption and popularization of ICCCWM, xdg-tools, PackageKit and even the support to wayland, pipewire and flatpaks are result of that. Flame wars about what DE is best reminds of the days when people thought you were a 'hacker' just because you used linux. Or better, when people used linux just because they thought people would think they were hackers.

forgotpwd16 5y ago

This meme isn't a limited case and it's representative of the mindset that GNOME has. Extremely focused in one "vision" disregarding the opinions and issues of users.

Gualdrapo 5y ago
Alas it does not happen only on GNOME. For example, mentioning how irrational is that to this day GIMP has no dedicated tool to draw basic geometric shapes (rectangles, ovals) as every other image editor does, even the most basic ones, can get you a lecture about how GIMP is free software, its lack of funding, that (allegedly) those tools are irrelevant and go against their philosophy, downvotes, bans...
- BrightGlow 5y ago
  I don't get this post. You listed several rational reasons why it has no tool to do that: >GIMP is free software, its lack of funding, that (allegedly) those tools are irrelevant If you have a specific feature request, you might consider checking the bug tracker for an existing issue. If there is one, then it's not helpful to mention it any further. The developers already know what the request is. From that point on the only helpful thing you can do is to contribute code, designs, etc towards getting the feature done. To illustrate, have you ever had somebody sitting behind you while you work who keeps repeatedly saying things like "are you working on that thing for me yet? are you done yet? when will you be done?" until you finish? It's kind of like that. Doing that doesn't help the person go any faster.
- TLLtchvL8KZ 5y ago
  GIMP is crap, the reason they make up all those excuses is because they have nothing better than it. The majority of them talking online seem to think GIMP is a superior image manipulation tool than Photoshop on a technical level despite the fact gimp cannot even simply or reliably draw a circle.
  - BrightGlow 5y ago
    Your comment's really negative and disrespectful, please don't do that. If your test for drawing programs is "makes it simple to draw a circle" than Microsoft Paint would be better than both of them.

Cloudef 5y ago

Sometimes collaboration goes nowhere: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217 https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/mutter/-/issues/217

forgotpwd16 5y ago
>Enough spam for today. Locking the issue. Locked as expected. But really? Well-written written arguments from users and developers is considered spam?
- OJFord 5y ago
  The worst bit IMO is that that promptly followed: > I've created a new thread that hopefully is a bit more relevant. Continue the conversation here > ['here' marked as duplicate of 'this' and closed]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- alxlaz 5y ago
  On the Gnome bug tracker? Yes.
  - gnulinux 5y ago
    But why, I don't understand. These conversations need to be had somewhere, why not in a bug tracker where developer said they won't fix it? There already is an argument not to fix it, why can't others support fixing it?
    - OJFord 5y ago
      I don't think GP means it's good or that they agree with it. Just like 'oh yeah, that's to be expected there...'
      - 5y ago

simion314 5y ago

File picking is a very important thing, I am sorry if is hard to implement but some pathetic workaround or some simplicity excuse is not working with many users.

whywhywhywhy 5y ago

> An example of how such a limited case can fuel beliefs of one desktop being "better" than the other Disagree completely, if they don't care to add such a relatively basic feature that every other environment has and don't care if their users have a 90s level experience opening documents which users do multiple times a day then why would you expect any of the rest of the system to have any care and attention paid to it?

BrightGlow 5y ago
Welcome to Linux on the desktop, where every project has no money and no developers and is decades behind Windows and Mac. It's been like this the entire time I've been using Linux. But somehow, some people still manage to use it and get work done.

zanc 5y ago

>Linux desktops Linux is a kernel.

dsr_ 5y ago
... and desktops running operating systems with a Linux kernel are called Linux desktops when it doesn't matter much which distribution is being discussed.
- maccolgan 5y ago
  If you run Android in desktop mode, would that be considered a Linux desktop?
  - dsr_ 5y ago
    Sure, in much the same way that a ChromeOS box is a Linux box but a MacOS box is not, but both of them are UNIX boxes. Which terminology you use depends on what you want to emphasize.