8 ms·

Legislation like this might make sense now but in the long run silly laws like this cause more harm than good. Do we really want to lock in the charging form fa

by xupybd 5y ago

Legislation like this might make sense now but in the long run silly laws like this cause more harm than good. Do we really want to lock in the charging form factor for the next who knows how long?

Dylan16807 5y ago
It's easy enough to let the law expire in five or ten years.
- dominotw 5y ago
  > five or ten years thats a pretty wide range. What is the basis for these numbers?
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    It's a wide range because the exact number doesn't matter. USB-C is replacing ports that existed for 7 and 25 years, depending on which end you look at. It's not going to change again any time soon.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      It’s the sixth iteration of device-side USB connector in around 25 years. What’s the basis to think this is the last one for a long time when we’ve seen new ones introduced about every five years so far?
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        Original, mini, micro... micro again if you really want to stretch it, C. How do you get 6? Are you counting type A 3.0 and micro 3.0 as "separate iterations"? A device that was on micro had zero need to swap back to a full-size connector and then back again to micro. > What’s the basis to think this is the last one for a long time when we’ve seen new ones introduced about every five years so far? A big part is that this is also replacing type A plugs. Also it's been continuously upgraded without any changes needed, after being heavily designed around that concept, with us currently 7 years in with no hint of wanting to replace it.
        sokoloff 5y ago
        It was a simplistic method, but I think sufficient: I counted the different device-side cable ends in my box o’ USB cables. Giant B, mini B, micro B, the giant B with the extra dormer on top of it, the micro B with the extra bit next to it, and USB-C. Literally all six of them are within reach from my desk (my monitor takes a dormer version, an external HD housing takes the extra-wide version, Arduino clones take a giant original and mini, and most devices take a micro-B or -C.) > Are you counting type A 3.0 and micro 3.0 as "separate iterations"? I counted only device-side differences (as the point of the EU law is to reduce e-waste by reducing device-side variation). I didn’t make any distinction on variations in the host (A) side of the cable.
        Dylan16807 5y ago
        > It was a simplistic method, but I think sufficient: I counted the different device-side cable ends in my box o’ USB cables. When you're trying to make a point about how often they change things, it doesn't make sense to list two variants that came out at the same time. Also micro and micro 3.0 came out a year and a half apart, so that's even less reason to count them as different iterations.
        sokoloff 5y ago
        If the teams who created those variations had no valid reason to create them, I agree they should be excluded from the count and treated as errors in technical and/or business judgment. I don’t see evidence to support that conclusion and instead default to thinking they were created for a reason that appeared valid to the smart people working on the problem and approving them in the USB standards process (and the proliferation is obviously contributing to eWaste). Perhaps the USB-C teams finally got a forever connector designed on the N+1th spin, but my experience suggests that while they learned and made it better, we’re nowhere near done evolving in electronics and cable connectivity yet. https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
        Dylan16807 5y ago
- xupybd 5y ago
  Maybe, these things have a tendency to get political and hard to change. The more people involved the harder it is to change. The US is still not using the metric system because it's too big. Legislation like this can get stuck. I'm not sure it will but there is a high risk.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    To be clear, I'm not saying to repeal it after five or ten years, I'm saying to make the original law only last that long. Nothing's going to get stuck or need to be changed that way. And this is a law that doesn't need employees, so you won't have that kind of pressure.
    - xupybd 5y ago
      Oh actually that does fix most of my issues with the law. If it had an expiration date.
bodge5000 5y ago
Yeh, the problem is that to force iPhones to use usb-c, they need to force everything to use usb-c, for the forseeable future, regardless of what other standards there are to be invented. It seems that alot of these articles tend to forget that devices exist, and will be created, beyond iphones.
- Ekaros 5y ago
  I don't see why they wouldn't allow changing the standard in a 5-10 years like it did with micro-usb to usb-c.
  - blitzar 5y ago
    So in say 5-10 years there would be 2 dominant connectors in the market for phones?? How would that be unlike the last 5-10 years?
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      It's would still be one or two less. And the older one would anyway have old cables left.
      - blitzar 5y ago
        Realistically there are 3 unique connectors at the moment. Prior to USB-C (briefly at least) there were 2. I would love to just have one connector, but without going all liberterian, it hardly seems sensible to legislate which exact piece of technology that is. The problem of 100 different phone chargers was resolved 10 years ago. There are actual problems in the world, that there are 2 types of bits of metal you shove in the back of your phone doesnt even rank on the list.
    - Jensson 5y ago
      The past 5-10 years saw 2 dominant connectors from phones thanks to this EU initiative. If EU didn't actually make good on their promise to punish those companies that didn't conform then you'd start seeing the industry diverge again and we'd have 10+ connectors again in 10 years. So it seems like you'd be in favor of pushing Apple to USB-C here, since you liked the standardization. You can't just say "Apple can do whatever they want, but every other company has to fall in line!". If you don't want other companies to do whatever they want then you wont let Apple to do it either.
Tomis02 5y ago
The proposed legislation doesn't forbid the usage of whatever port Apple wants to use, they simply need to provide an USB-C option as well. Apple's misinformation: "We remain concerned that strict regulation mandating just one type of connector stifles innovation rather than encouraging it, which in turn will harm consumers in Europe and around the world." Reality: "Breton said manufacturers, including Apple, could choose to offer two charging ports on their devices if they wanted to keep a non-USB-C connector" It's ironic. Many people hailing Jobs as a visionary said that placing design restrictions on Apple products forced designers to think out of the box and produce a superior product. Well now, here's a design restriction for you.
sirwitti 5y ago
Legislation like this already allows all people in the EU to reuse standardized chargers. This is one of the (now) small things I appreciate every single day since I only have to manage ~2 usb connector types instead of 10+ proprietory ones.
- pydry 5y ago
  I still have 4/5. While I appreciate electric razors/toothbrushes that use USB they all still seem to have proprietary cables and connectors for no very good reason. I dont care about apple but id love to be able to charge all electronic devices with the same cables.
  - blitzar 5y ago
    > no very good reason. This is the thing that gets me … surely the cheapest solution for the manufacture of the cheap electronics is a usb mini connector. But instead they slap a usb wall brick with a random connector from the pets bin to plug into the device. Why!?

by xupybd 5y ago

Legislation like this might make sense now but in the long run silly laws like this cause more harm than good. Do we really want to lock in the charging form factor for the next who knows how long?

Dylan16807 5y ago

It's easy enough to let the law expire in five or ten years.

dominotw 5y ago
> five or ten years thats a pretty wide range. What is the basis for these numbers?
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  It's a wide range because the exact number doesn't matter. USB-C is replacing ports that existed for 7 and 25 years, depending on which end you look at. It's not going to change again any time soon.
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    It’s the sixth iteration of device-side USB connector in around 25 years. What’s the basis to think this is the last one for a long time when we’ve seen new ones introduced about every five years so far?
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      Original, mini, micro... micro again if you really want to stretch it, C. How do you get 6? Are you counting type A 3.0 and micro 3.0 as "separate iterations"? A device that was on micro had zero need to swap back to a full-size connector and then back again to micro. > What’s the basis to think this is the last one for a long time when we’ve seen new ones introduced about every five years so far? A big part is that this is also replacing type A plugs. Also it's been continuously upgraded without any changes needed, after being heavily designed around that concept, with us currently 7 years in with no hint of wanting to replace it.
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        It was a simplistic method, but I think sufficient: I counted the different device-side cable ends in my box o’ USB cables. Giant B, mini B, micro B, the giant B with the extra dormer on top of it, the micro B with the extra bit next to it, and USB-C. Literally all six of them are within reach from my desk (my monitor takes a dormer version, an external HD housing takes the extra-wide version, Arduino clones take a giant original and mini, and most devices take a micro-B or -C.) > Are you counting type A 3.0 and micro 3.0 as "separate iterations"? I counted only device-side differences (as the point of the EU law is to reduce e-waste by reducing device-side variation). I didn’t make any distinction on variations in the host (A) side of the cable.
        Dylan16807 5y ago
        > It was a simplistic method, but I think sufficient: I counted the different device-side cable ends in my box o’ USB cables. When you're trying to make a point about how often they change things, it doesn't make sense to list two variants that came out at the same time. Also micro and micro 3.0 came out a year and a half apart, so that's even less reason to count them as different iterations.
        sokoloff 5y ago
        If the teams who created those variations had no valid reason to create them, I agree they should be excluded from the count and treated as errors in technical and/or business judgment. I don’t see evidence to support that conclusion and instead default to thinking they were created for a reason that appeared valid to the smart people working on the problem and approving them in the USB standards process (and the proliferation is obviously contributing to eWaste). Perhaps the USB-C teams finally got a forever connector designed on the N+1th spin, but my experience suggests that while they learned and made it better, we’re nowhere near done evolving in electronics and cable connectivity yet. https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
        Dylan16807 5y ago
xupybd 5y ago
Maybe, these things have a tendency to get political and hard to change. The more people involved the harder it is to change. The US is still not using the metric system because it's too big. Legislation like this can get stuck. I'm not sure it will but there is a high risk.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  To be clear, I'm not saying to repeal it after five or ten years, I'm saying to make the original law only last that long. Nothing's going to get stuck or need to be changed that way. And this is a law that doesn't need employees, so you won't have that kind of pressure.
  - xupybd 5y ago
    Oh actually that does fix most of my issues with the law. If it had an expiration date.

bodge5000 5y ago

Yeh, the problem is that to force iPhones to use usb-c, they need to force everything to use usb-c, for the forseeable future, regardless of what other standards there are to be invented. It seems that alot of these articles tend to forget that devices exist, and will be created, beyond iphones.

Ekaros 5y ago
I don't see why they wouldn't allow changing the standard in a 5-10 years like it did with micro-usb to usb-c.
- blitzar 5y ago
  So in say 5-10 years there would be 2 dominant connectors in the market for phones?? How would that be unlike the last 5-10 years?
  - Ekaros 5y ago
    It's would still be one or two less. And the older one would anyway have old cables left.
    - blitzar 5y ago
      Realistically there are 3 unique connectors at the moment. Prior to USB-C (briefly at least) there were 2. I would love to just have one connector, but without going all liberterian, it hardly seems sensible to legislate which exact piece of technology that is. The problem of 100 different phone chargers was resolved 10 years ago. There are actual problems in the world, that there are 2 types of bits of metal you shove in the back of your phone doesnt even rank on the list.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    The past 5-10 years saw 2 dominant connectors from phones thanks to this EU initiative. If EU didn't actually make good on their promise to punish those companies that didn't conform then you'd start seeing the industry diverge again and we'd have 10+ connectors again in 10 years. So it seems like you'd be in favor of pushing Apple to USB-C here, since you liked the standardization. You can't just say "Apple can do whatever they want, but every other company has to fall in line!". If you don't want other companies to do whatever they want then you wont let Apple to do it either.

Tomis02 5y ago

The proposed legislation doesn't forbid the usage of whatever port Apple wants to use, they simply need to provide an USB-C option as well. Apple's misinformation: "We remain concerned that strict regulation mandating just one type of connector stifles innovation rather than encouraging it, which in turn will harm consumers in Europe and around the world." Reality: "Breton said manufacturers, including Apple, could choose to offer two charging ports on their devices if they wanted to keep a non-USB-C connector" It's ironic. Many people hailing Jobs as a visionary said that placing design restrictions on Apple products forced designers to think out of the box and produce a superior product. Well now, here's a design restriction for you.

sirwitti 5y ago

Legislation like this already allows all people in the EU to reuse standardized chargers. This is one of the (now) small things I appreciate every single day since I only have to manage ~2 usb connector types instead of 10+ proprietory ones.

pydry 5y ago
I still have 4/5. While I appreciate electric razors/toothbrushes that use USB they all still seem to have proprietary cables and connectors for no very good reason. I dont care about apple but id love to be able to charge all electronic devices with the same cables.
- blitzar 5y ago
  > no very good reason. This is the thing that gets me … surely the cheapest solution for the manufacture of the cheap electronics is a usb mini connector. But instead they slap a usb wall brick with a random connector from the pets bin to plug into the device. Why!?