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> The fraud bots will keep the ecosystem running It's like that everywhere. Yesterday a friend of mind was revealing to me that crypto currency exchanges were

> The fraud bots will keep the ecosystem running It's like that everywhere. Yesterday a friend of mind was revealing to me that crypto currency exchanges were pressuring them to create bots so that their coin trading volume would go up or they would be delisted. There are bots to write comments on trip advisor and to star on amazon. Bots to follow on twitter. Bot to click on referal links and bot to farm in games. I'm pretty sure if we all suddenly went offline, half the internet would seem to keep going as usual.

SuchAnonMuchWow 5y ago
> I'm pretty sure if we all suddenly went offline, half the internet would seem to keep going as usual. Seems like a reasonable estimate if half the internet is porn.
bongoman37 5y ago
There are massive bot farms that watch videos, click on ads, sometimes even do a download of the app after clicking and open the app. I've sometimes thought Google could cut out the middleman and just allow creators to outright buy 'views' on YouTube. You could pay like $100 to get 10,000 additional views which would translate to some additional ad revenue, which ad companies would know is inflated so they would discount the rates appropriately and no money would need to be sent to bot farms. This would also be far greener and need less servers and bandwidth and would be an overall win-win.
- thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
  It's one thing to read about the click farms, but nothing can prepare one to actually see the videos of them in action - just visceral. It has an eerie Matrix-like feeling to it. 13 sec video of a Chinese click farm (quite loud): https://twitter.com/mbrennanchina/status/1072114511212109824 https://twitter.com/mbrennanchina/status/1072114511212109824 10 sec - thousands of phones (not loud): https://twitter.com/mbrennanchina/status/1148447866366464000 https://twitter.com/mbrennanchina/status/1148447866366464000
  - hellbannedguy 5y ago
    That is laughably sad. I've been depressed, but for some reason started to laugh.
  - Lamad123 5y ago
    And the scene from Silicon Valley
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  But what about the workers. It's likely that those working at the bot farms aren't wealthy, and that they're from less wealthy countries. So this is good, addressing the immediate problem of energy waste, but doesn't address the underlying problem of wealth inequality that - in general - drives people to work on systems to rip others off. Those who run the bot farms will find other scummy work, and no end of desperate workers.
- lucasverra 5y ago
  It makes sense. If that happened, who would lose in the short term?
- WelcomeShorty 5y ago
  This has been since what feels like forever. Once a couple of people I worked with found and penetrated one of these "click farms". We saw all the stats, the number where impressive. I had a private contact within google's SRE team and spilled all the beans, ask where I should dump the information within google. The answer was as blunt as telling: no one would be interested since it would hurt their bottom line. Tried to inform a couple of Googlies at different cons in the months following: as much as they liked the tricks we pulled to get in, as little did they want to bring the subject up in their teams. Clicks are Google's Crack.
thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
One aspect that shouldn't be lost - the implicit framing of the platforms being "under attack" by the bots is wrong - the bots are likely a net positive for the platforms - they're very much complicit with the fraud, or at least condone it. They sell views and clicks - if bots create more views and clicks, so be it. It's the advertisers who bear the cost. Taking Facebook as an example: Creating an account, linking Oculus Quest to it and leaving the account dormant - accounts locked en masse. US account that logs in from Indonesian IPs, never posts anything, likes 5000 random things ranging from a shampoo to a cafe in a small Ohio town, to the new shirts of an Albanian soccer club - in Facebook's view that's a perfectly legitimate account.
- im3w1l 5y ago
  Maybe in the short term it works like that, but ultimately a platform's value comes from its real users. And bots make the platform less attractive to real users.
  - funcDropShadow 5y ago
    But Facebook, like most social media platforms, is addictive, so it is not obvious that in the long term a reasonable usage of them will emerge.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      Lack of movement in sales after paying Facebook for advertisements will emerge, and that will certainly be noticed.
      - dghlsakjg 5y ago
        You may overestimate the sophistication of ad buyers, and underestimate the ability of Facebook to convince buyers that their ads are working
        lotsofpulp 5y ago
ForHackernews 5y ago
There's a name for this: The Dead Internet theory[0] It postulates that the majority of the "organic" content is actually generated by bots, and the number of human interactions online is a tiny subset. We are all wandering unknowingly through a wasteland haunted by robot ghosts. [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2021/08/dead-internet-theory-wrong-but-feels-true/619937/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2021/08/dead-...
- vxNsr 5y ago
  In this case at least the article implies this not to be true, one of the interviewed ceos said he used to generate 80% of his revenue from Facebook ad buys and now it’s only 20%. This would imply he’s getting his ads in front of real people.
pontus 5y ago
Beep beep boop boop. I regular person, like your comment!
drawkbox 5y ago
> I'm pretty sure if we all suddenly went offline, half the internet would seem to keep going as usual. That could be a good Black Mirror like scifi movie, everyone dies but chatter and social media just keep living on. "Did you guys see that amazing sunset last night? Check out this book to capture these amazing moments!" "Can't wait to see the new [dystopian movie] this weekend!" "Amazing shows to see this weekend. Download our event app to log on and find the fun!" "The [other party] are a it again today... protests should be intense today at the capitol." ... no one there ...
- V-eHGsd_ 5y ago
  sounds a little like autofac by philip k dick[1]. there's an electric dreams episode about it, ironically streaming on amazon[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofac [2] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6902176/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6902176/
- jareklupinski 5y ago
  I love these kinds of stories > CGI 3D Animated Shorts : "LAST DAY OF WAR" - by Dima Fedotov https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjJmTeBSEzU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjJmTeBSEzU

SuchAnonMuchWow 5y ago

> I'm pretty sure if we all suddenly went offline, half the internet would seem to keep going as usual. Seems like a reasonable estimate if half the internet is porn.

bongoman37 5y ago

There are massive bot farms that watch videos, click on ads, sometimes even do a download of the app after clicking and open the app. I've sometimes thought Google could cut out the middleman and just allow creators to outright buy 'views' on YouTube. You could pay like $100 to get 10,000 additional views which would translate to some additional ad revenue, which ad companies would know is inflated so they would discount the rates appropriately and no money would need to be sent to bot farms. This would also be far greener and need less servers and bandwidth and would be an overall win-win.

thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
It's one thing to read about the click farms, but nothing can prepare one to actually see the videos of them in action - just visceral. It has an eerie Matrix-like feeling to it. 13 sec video of a Chinese click farm (quite loud): https://twitter.com/mbrennanchina/status/1072114511212109824 https://twitter.com/mbrennanchina/status/1072114511212109824 10 sec - thousands of phones (not loud): https://twitter.com/mbrennanchina/status/1148447866366464000 https://twitter.com/mbrennanchina/status/1148447866366464000
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  That is laughably sad. I've been depressed, but for some reason started to laugh.
- Lamad123 5y ago
  And the scene from Silicon Valley
pbhjpbhj 5y ago
But what about the workers. It's likely that those working at the bot farms aren't wealthy, and that they're from less wealthy countries. So this is good, addressing the immediate problem of energy waste, but doesn't address the underlying problem of wealth inequality that - in general - drives people to work on systems to rip others off. Those who run the bot farms will find other scummy work, and no end of desperate workers.
lucasverra 5y ago
It makes sense. If that happened, who would lose in the short term?
WelcomeShorty 5y ago
This has been since what feels like forever. Once a couple of people I worked with found and penetrated one of these "click farms". We saw all the stats, the number where impressive. I had a private contact within google's SRE team and spilled all the beans, ask where I should dump the information within google. The answer was as blunt as telling: no one would be interested since it would hurt their bottom line. Tried to inform a couple of Googlies at different cons in the months following: as much as they liked the tricks we pulled to get in, as little did they want to bring the subject up in their teams. Clicks are Google's Crack.

thow-58d4e8b 5y ago

One aspect that shouldn't be lost - the implicit framing of the platforms being "under attack" by the bots is wrong - the bots are likely a net positive for the platforms - they're very much complicit with the fraud, or at least condone it. They sell views and clicks - if bots create more views and clicks, so be it. It's the advertisers who bear the cost. Taking Facebook as an example: Creating an account, linking Oculus Quest to it and leaving the account dormant - accounts locked en masse. US account that logs in from Indonesian IPs, never posts anything, likes 5000 random things ranging from a shampoo to a cafe in a small Ohio town, to the new shirts of an Albanian soccer club - in Facebook's view that's a perfectly legitimate account.

im3w1l 5y ago
Maybe in the short term it works like that, but ultimately a platform's value comes from its real users. And bots make the platform less attractive to real users.
- funcDropShadow 5y ago
  But Facebook, like most social media platforms, is addictive, so it is not obvious that in the long term a reasonable usage of them will emerge.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    Lack of movement in sales after paying Facebook for advertisements will emerge, and that will certainly be noticed.
    - dghlsakjg 5y ago
      You may overestimate the sophistication of ad buyers, and underestimate the ability of Facebook to convince buyers that their ads are working
      - lotsofpulp 5y ago

ForHackernews 5y ago

There's a name for this: The Dead Internet theory[0] It postulates that the majority of the "organic" content is actually generated by bots, and the number of human interactions online is a tiny subset. We are all wandering unknowingly through a wasteland haunted by robot ghosts. [0] https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2021/08/dead-internet-theory-wrong-but-feels-true/619937/ https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2021/08/dead-...

vxNsr 5y ago
In this case at least the article implies this not to be true, one of the interviewed ceos said he used to generate 80% of his revenue from Facebook ad buys and now it’s only 20%. This would imply he’s getting his ads in front of real people.

pontus 5y ago

Beep beep boop boop. I regular person, like your comment!

drawkbox 5y ago

> I'm pretty sure if we all suddenly went offline, half the internet would seem to keep going as usual. That could be a good Black Mirror like scifi movie, everyone dies but chatter and social media just keep living on. "Did you guys see that amazing sunset last night? Check out this book to capture these amazing moments!" "Can't wait to see the new [dystopian movie] this weekend!" "Amazing shows to see this weekend. Download our event app to log on and find the fun!" "The [other party] are a it again today... protests should be intense today at the capitol." ... no one there ...

V-eHGsd_ 5y ago
sounds a little like autofac by philip k dick[1]. there's an electric dreams episode about it, ironically streaming on amazon[2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofac https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofac [2] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6902176/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6902176/
jareklupinski 5y ago
I love these kinds of stories > CGI 3D Animated Shorts : "LAST DAY OF WAR" - by Dima Fedotov https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjJmTeBSEzU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IjJmTeBSEzU