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I understand Apple's decision to do this. They want to stick it to Epic. Completely understandable desire on Apple's part. But, sadly, Apple is letting their de

I understand Apple's decision to do this. They want to stick it to Epic. Completely understandable desire on Apple's part. But, sadly, Apple is letting their desire to get vengeance outweigh the interests of their users in having all the games they want to play on their devices. I have been realizing lately that my loyalty to Apple has been waning over the years after having invested heavily in the ecosystem. This is another representation to me of how Apple's ecosystem is something you have no control over, and you are at the whim of Apple's legal team in situations like that to be able to play the games you want to play on your devices. Apple remembered their corporate games they were playing and forgot who their real customer and focus should be: the end users. This decision doesn't benefit their end users in any meaningful way. It hurts end users to score points in their feud with Epic.

Paianni 5y ago
How do Epic's games benefit users in meaningful ways over any of the other non-exploitative games on the App Store?
- SeanA208 5y ago
  > How do Epic's games benefit users in meaningful ways over any of the other games on the App Store? They benefit the users who want to play those games. Fortnite in particular is huge.
  - bashinator 5y ago
    On top of that, there's a pretty strong argument to be made that Fortnite is as much about socialization and open-ended interaction as it is a game. Apple banning what's potentially a next-generation social network from their platform isn't a great look.
    - lkois 5y ago
      But it has guns so it makes the children violent. Social gun violence (aka gangbanging) is not the rule of moral
    - acomjean 5y ago
      This is true. As an adult who's partner plays and plays occasionally, Its honestly really about group chatting (voice comms) with friends/relatives as much as it is about the game for us. I mean the game is silly and fun, but really its a group thing. I almost never play when not with friends. And occasionally there are group events/ a concerts and movie screenings. We're all on PCs/ Consoles, but if your a kid a free to play game your friends are on you could join in with a tablet, would be nice.
    - mbreese 5y ago
      A counter point is that it was an extremely reckless move for Epic to risk the banning of their next-generation social network (which to my kids, it definitely is) from the largest mobile store. Epic thought they were forcing Apple's hand, but they lost in court on the points they really cared about the most. And they got confirmation that Apple was well within their rights to cancel the developer account. I'm not sure the risk was worth it... especially since they didn't need to take that risk to file the lawsuit. From the first moments, Epic has been running a PR campaign, which doesn't really help you in court.
- fishywang 5y ago
  Why does that matter? What does "meaningful ways" even mean? And "meaningful ways" according to who, the user or Apple?
  - EvRev 5y ago
    Think about what is important to the demographic that is playing Fortnite, is playing the game more important or is having an Apple device? There are kids that are in elementary school that wear Fortnite clothing. The brand is everywhere. I am sure some actuary did the math on it so that Apple will come ahead, but the optics on something like this will sway brand loyalty for years in this demographic.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - Paianni 5y ago
    Don't ask me, ask the parent comment poster.
- ye_olde_gamer 5y ago
  Fortnite notwithstanding, Epic also makes the Unreal Engine, which is one of the biggest ones alongside Unity -- especially for cross-platform games. Hindering iOS development of UE will affect a lot of other game devs, both huge and indie.
  - rdsnsca 5y ago
    Unreal Engine is under a different developer license than the one Apple canceled, though the judge did rule it would be legal for Apple to cancel all of Epics licences. "(2) a declaration that (i) Apple's termination of the DPLA and the related agreements between Epic Games and Apple was valid, lawful, and enforceable, and (ii) Apple has the contractual right to terminate its DPLA with any or all of Epic Games' wholly owned subsidiaries, affiliates, and/or other entities under Epic Games' control at any time and at Apple's sole discretion."
    - ye_olde_gamer 5y ago
      Epic's first-party games are often a showcase / development driver for new versions of UE, though (the way Unreal, the game, first popularized UE, the engine). If Epic can't publish their own games on iOS anymore, they would have less incentive/ability to iterate UE on that platform even if that license wasn't canceled. It's a loss for cross-platform gaming altogether. Apple just really doesn't give a damn about their users =/
abbub 5y ago
Meh. In the grand scheme of things, Apple doesn't even make the top ten list of shady businesses this modern lifestyle forces me to engage with. :/
- kbenson 5y ago
  Is that a good reason to give them a pass? By that reasoning, you probably shouldn't mind if you're out eating and someone walks up to you and just takes your plate of food for themselves. Honestly, it's probably not in the top ten of problems you deal with in a month or week.
tenaciousDaniel 5y ago
Yep. The time is really good for a new entry in the OS landscape. I'd jump ship pretty easily to anything that isn't windows.
- melony 5y ago
  The issue is vertical hardware integration. None of the current mainstream phone brands are good at both.
cortesoft 5y ago
I don't necessarily agree with Apple here, but couldn't your same arguments be made against Epic? They want to "stick it" to Apple and are harming their customers in the mean time? What this comes down to is an argument over money, and what percentage apple should get of that money. I don't think either company has a moral high ground in their negotiations on what percentage apple deserves.
- kerng 5y ago
  Epic is the customer here also and they want to be able to provide a convenient and cheaper way for their customers. Their asks are not only reasonable, they are consumer friendly. Apple is just being a bully.
  - dimitrios1 5y ago
    Imagine you want to sell a valuable, consumer friendly product that is cheaper than some alternatives and will save people money, but in this case, in a brick and mortar store. The brick and mortar store says "we agree to stock your product, and will take 30% off the top for our troubles." Would we be saying the same things? It's the same dynamic, in my view.
    - ttmb 5y ago
      And then the brick and mortar store says "oh and also we want 30% of anything the customer purchases through your product for ever" - Yes, yes I do think we would be saying the same things.
    - sam0x17 5y ago
      This analogy only works if you modify it: There are only two chains of brick and mortar store in the world and one with double digit market share (Apple) has decided to take 30% off the top for all goods sold in all of their stores and have banned products from having any indication on their packaging that they can be purchased elsewhere for different pricing. Entering any store also requires an extremely expensive chain-specific device that most people purchase on credit every few years, eliminating the ability to easily shop around at both chains. If this were to happen outside of tech, the perpetrator would get crushed by anti-monopoly legislation.
pyuser583 5y ago
The emphasis should be on the customer, not necessarily the end user. Aren’t developers also their customers?
itwy 5y ago
Exactly this. I bought iPad Pro to play Fortnite with my nephew, and in less than a month it was removed. Epic broke the agreement, fine remove them from the App Store, but there's no reason to not being able to install the game from an external source except for Apple's greed. I, for one, not going to purchase anything from Apple anymore. I spent over 20k on Apple devices in the last 8 years or so.
- JiNCMG 5y ago
  a month in? You could have gotten a full refund still use that money to buy a couple of Nintendo Switches (better mobile experience).
kllrnohj 5y ago
> But, sadly, Apple is letting their desire to get vengeance outweigh the interests of their users Of course they are, that's Apple's standard business relationship practice. See also why Mac's still don't have an Nvidia GPU option, because Apple & Nvidia got in some spat a decade ago and Apple has been holding a grudge ever since. The more Apple brings stuff in-house the less this matters to the bottom line, but it shouldn't be surprising. Unless not having Fortnite begins to seriously impact iPhone & iPad sales, Apple isn't going to care regardless of whether or not it's hurting their customers.
- stephenr 5y ago
  s/got in a spat/had years of repeated customer issues because of GPUs shitting the bed/
  - passivate 5y ago
    I think it was a system design issue because of lack of proper cooling from the integrator (Apple). Maybe someone can look it up, I'm going off of memory here..
    - kllrnohj 5y ago
      Yeah, inadequate cooling caused the BGA to pop free, with the recall "fix" being to just add some rubber to smash it down. iirc Apple tried to blame Nvidia for it and Nvidia didn't take it, blaming instead Apple's design. Since then Apple has repeatedly had inadequate cooling and power delivery issues, just typically resulting in throttling instead of recalls. Sooo Nvidia was probably accurate and it was Apple's fault. But regardless of whose fault it was, the end result is consumers were stuck with some truly second-tier GPUs for many years
      - stephenr 5y ago
        ... what are you talking about? The fix was to replace the mainboard. I know this, because I had it done several times.
AltruisticGapHN 5y ago
It's literally just one game? Fortnite? Which is really a cash cow at this point. Epic couldn't care less about you, or smaller developers. Which is what is most disingenuous on their part, to pretend like they're the "small guy".
xyzzy21 5y ago
It may also be illegal both from an anti-trust legal view and from a contract legal view. IANAL but I hire them frequently for advice.
- sbuk 5y ago
  The judge literally just ruled that it wasn't.
  - eldaisfish 5y ago
    .. based on precedents where none of them were digital. Every single precedent cited in this judgement pre-internet.
    - etchalon 5y ago
      Laws aren't different because "digital".
    - lostlogin 5y ago
      That doesn’t change the ruling. Appeal might, but as things stand, this has been litigated.
sendtown_expwy 5y ago
"Fortnite will be blacklisted from the Apple ecosystem until the exhaustion of all court appeals" It's not about sticking it to them. It's to increase the cost of their appeals and pressure them to drop the case.
- Salgat 5y ago
  That sounds like "sticking it to them" to me. The alternative is that Apple lets them back on, stops paying for an expensive lawsuit, and gets extra revenue from fortnite.
  - spzb 5y ago
    Sounds like standard lawyer behaviour. They’re being paid by Apple to look after Apple’s interests.
    - jensensbutton 5y ago
      Are you saying Apple execs have zero say in the strategy they choose to pursue regarding the spat with Epic?
      - spzb 5y ago
        No I’m not but thanks for asking
  - JiNCMG 5y ago
    Mobile Fortnite has been dying for over a year before all this started so not much of an income. Note: Most gamers move over to a non-mobile device for these games or at least a Nintendo Switch.
stiltzkin 5y ago
What percentage of their users play Epic games as Fortnite?
collsni 5y ago
That's Apple's whole model. Glad you figured it out
syshum 5y ago
Where you are wrong is believing Apple considers its users customers... They do not, this clear by the way they handle the ecosystem. See a customer buys something from a company, after which they own it Apple on the other hand does not have customers, they can not because they do not sell anything, dont be fooled by the high prices, and verbiage that indicates you are "buying" something, marketing that in a sane and just society would be considered illegal as deceptive No no, you simply rent the device from apple for a period of time determined by apple, and are given permission to use the device in ways only the owner (Apple) approves.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Apple is letting their desire to get vengeance outweigh the interests of their users in having all the games they want to play on their devices. Post-NeXT (or at least post-iPod) Apple has always been about total control of user experience, not letting users do all of <whatever category of activity> that they want. I don't think that vengeance is necessary to explain this.
tyingq 5y ago
I think Apple is also risking what this all looks like to lawmakers. Lawmakers who currently seem to be in a frenzy around anti-trust and/or anti-competitive behavior.
davidw 5y ago
I tried to explain the details to my son, but he's just disappointed that he can't play a game he liked. He wants to buy a Windows computer and is saving up for it. Trying to get him interested in writing a bit of code, which to me is more fun in some ways than playing games, without pushing it too hard, and so far no luck.
- ehnto 5y ago
  Have you been framing the coding as a way to make games? Basically the only reason I'm here was because I thought making games would be rad, then I realized programming on it's own is pretty rad, and then eventually adult life showed up and it was a natural step to make it a career.
- ye_olde_gamer 5y ago
  Maybe let him try modding existing games? Steam's community workshop pages are thriving, especially for easily modded titles like Bethesda games. Back in the day, Warcraft III had a built-in script and level editor and people thrived on making mods and entire new types of games with it (murder mysteries, tower defense, battle royale, DOTA...). It's how I got my start as a coder, modding games that I enjoyed without the boring pressure of "business logic". I think Fortnite itself has a creative mode with limited logical programming: https://www.firetechcamp.com/course/build-an-escape-room-in-fortnite-creative-mode/ https://www.firetechcamp.com/course/build-an-escape-room-in-... Proper modding support is supposed to arrive soon: https://www.pcgamer.com/fortnite-creative-mod-support/ https://www.pcgamer.com/fortnite-creative-mod-support/
  - davidw 5y ago
    Cool! Any other games like that that people can recommend? Bonus points if it's fairly easy to get started.
    - ye_olde_gamer 5y ago
      I think there's a slight distinction to be made between "games that have built-in low/no-code content editors" and "games that can be modded via an SDK, but you have to code". The former are good for any creative kid (or adult!) and don't require you to learn a programming language, just logical thinking (as in logic gates/flows). The latter, depending on tooling, can require everything from simple Lua scripts (a common game modding language) all the way up to learning UnrealEngine or Unity. Games with built-in content editors: * Warcraft & Starcraft series (oldies but goodies) * Fortnite * Minecraft * Neverwinter Nights series * Divinity: Original Sin series * Age of Empires series Code-moddable games: Too many to list, see here: https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/Moddable/#p=0&tab=TopRated https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/Moddable/#p=0&tab=Top... In particular I'd check out Warcraft, Neverwinter Nights' DM mode, and the DOS editor for a good sampling of what the industry can offer. They are a great stepping stone to actual programming, with triggers, conditionals, and other flow control structures all wrapped behind a veneer of fantasy gaming. (edit: sorry for potato formatting. no idea how HN handles text formatting)
ehnto 5y ago
> I understand Apple's decision to do this. They want to stick it to Epic. Completely understandable desire on Apple's part. Are they businesses or school children?

Paianni 5y ago

How do Epic's games benefit users in meaningful ways over any of the other non-exploitative games on the App Store?

SeanA208 5y ago
> How do Epic's games benefit users in meaningful ways over any of the other games on the App Store? They benefit the users who want to play those games. Fortnite in particular is huge.
- bashinator 5y ago
  On top of that, there's a pretty strong argument to be made that Fortnite is as much about socialization and open-ended interaction as it is a game. Apple banning what's potentially a next-generation social network from their platform isn't a great look.
  - lkois 5y ago
    But it has guns so it makes the children violent. Social gun violence (aka gangbanging) is not the rule of moral
  - acomjean 5y ago
    This is true. As an adult who's partner plays and plays occasionally, Its honestly really about group chatting (voice comms) with friends/relatives as much as it is about the game for us. I mean the game is silly and fun, but really its a group thing. I almost never play when not with friends. And occasionally there are group events/ a concerts and movie screenings. We're all on PCs/ Consoles, but if your a kid a free to play game your friends are on you could join in with a tablet, would be nice.
  - mbreese 5y ago
    A counter point is that it was an extremely reckless move for Epic to risk the banning of their next-generation social network (which to my kids, it definitely is) from the largest mobile store. Epic thought they were forcing Apple's hand, but they lost in court on the points they really cared about the most. And they got confirmation that Apple was well within their rights to cancel the developer account. I'm not sure the risk was worth it... especially since they didn't need to take that risk to file the lawsuit. From the first moments, Epic has been running a PR campaign, which doesn't really help you in court.
fishywang 5y ago
Why does that matter? What does "meaningful ways" even mean? And "meaningful ways" according to who, the user or Apple?
- EvRev 5y ago
  Think about what is important to the demographic that is playing Fortnite, is playing the game more important or is having an Apple device? There are kids that are in elementary school that wear Fortnite clothing. The brand is everywhere. I am sure some actuary did the math on it so that Apple will come ahead, but the optics on something like this will sway brand loyalty for years in this demographic.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- Paianni 5y ago
  Don't ask me, ask the parent comment poster.
ye_olde_gamer 5y ago
Fortnite notwithstanding, Epic also makes the Unreal Engine, which is one of the biggest ones alongside Unity -- especially for cross-platform games. Hindering iOS development of UE will affect a lot of other game devs, both huge and indie.
- rdsnsca 5y ago
  Unreal Engine is under a different developer license than the one Apple canceled, though the judge did rule it would be legal for Apple to cancel all of Epics licences. "(2) a declaration that (i) Apple's termination of the DPLA and the related agreements between Epic Games and Apple was valid, lawful, and enforceable, and (ii) Apple has the contractual right to terminate its DPLA with any or all of Epic Games' wholly owned subsidiaries, affiliates, and/or other entities under Epic Games' control at any time and at Apple's sole discretion."
  - ye_olde_gamer 5y ago
    Epic's first-party games are often a showcase / development driver for new versions of UE, though (the way Unreal, the game, first popularized UE, the engine). If Epic can't publish their own games on iOS anymore, they would have less incentive/ability to iterate UE on that platform even if that license wasn't canceled. It's a loss for cross-platform gaming altogether. Apple just really doesn't give a damn about their users =/

abbub 5y ago

Meh. In the grand scheme of things, Apple doesn't even make the top ten list of shady businesses this modern lifestyle forces me to engage with. :/

kbenson 5y ago
Is that a good reason to give them a pass? By that reasoning, you probably shouldn't mind if you're out eating and someone walks up to you and just takes your plate of food for themselves. Honestly, it's probably not in the top ten of problems you deal with in a month or week.

tenaciousDaniel 5y ago

Yep. The time is really good for a new entry in the OS landscape. I'd jump ship pretty easily to anything that isn't windows.

melony 5y ago
The issue is vertical hardware integration. None of the current mainstream phone brands are good at both.

cortesoft 5y ago

I don't necessarily agree with Apple here, but couldn't your same arguments be made against Epic? They want to "stick it" to Apple and are harming their customers in the mean time? What this comes down to is an argument over money, and what percentage apple should get of that money. I don't think either company has a moral high ground in their negotiations on what percentage apple deserves.

kerng 5y ago
Epic is the customer here also and they want to be able to provide a convenient and cheaper way for their customers. Their asks are not only reasonable, they are consumer friendly. Apple is just being a bully.
- dimitrios1 5y ago
  Imagine you want to sell a valuable, consumer friendly product that is cheaper than some alternatives and will save people money, but in this case, in a brick and mortar store. The brick and mortar store says "we agree to stock your product, and will take 30% off the top for our troubles." Would we be saying the same things? It's the same dynamic, in my view.
  - ttmb 5y ago
    And then the brick and mortar store says "oh and also we want 30% of anything the customer purchases through your product for ever" - Yes, yes I do think we would be saying the same things.
  - sam0x17 5y ago
    This analogy only works if you modify it: There are only two chains of brick and mortar store in the world and one with double digit market share (Apple) has decided to take 30% off the top for all goods sold in all of their stores and have banned products from having any indication on their packaging that they can be purchased elsewhere for different pricing. Entering any store also requires an extremely expensive chain-specific device that most people purchase on credit every few years, eliminating the ability to easily shop around at both chains. If this were to happen outside of tech, the perpetrator would get crushed by anti-monopoly legislation.

pyuser583 5y ago

The emphasis should be on the customer, not necessarily the end user. Aren’t developers also their customers?

itwy 5y ago

Exactly this. I bought iPad Pro to play Fortnite with my nephew, and in less than a month it was removed. Epic broke the agreement, fine remove them from the App Store, but there's no reason to not being able to install the game from an external source except for Apple's greed. I, for one, not going to purchase anything from Apple anymore. I spent over 20k on Apple devices in the last 8 years or so.

JiNCMG 5y ago
a month in? You could have gotten a full refund still use that money to buy a couple of Nintendo Switches (better mobile experience).

kllrnohj 5y ago

> But, sadly, Apple is letting their desire to get vengeance outweigh the interests of their users Of course they are, that's Apple's standard business relationship practice. See also why Mac's still don't have an Nvidia GPU option, because Apple & Nvidia got in some spat a decade ago and Apple has been holding a grudge ever since. The more Apple brings stuff in-house the less this matters to the bottom line, but it shouldn't be surprising. Unless not having Fortnite begins to seriously impact iPhone & iPad sales, Apple isn't going to care regardless of whether or not it's hurting their customers.

stephenr 5y ago
s/got in a spat/had years of repeated customer issues because of GPUs shitting the bed/
- passivate 5y ago
  I think it was a system design issue because of lack of proper cooling from the integrator (Apple). Maybe someone can look it up, I'm going off of memory here..
  - kllrnohj 5y ago
    Yeah, inadequate cooling caused the BGA to pop free, with the recall "fix" being to just add some rubber to smash it down. iirc Apple tried to blame Nvidia for it and Nvidia didn't take it, blaming instead Apple's design. Since then Apple has repeatedly had inadequate cooling and power delivery issues, just typically resulting in throttling instead of recalls. Sooo Nvidia was probably accurate and it was Apple's fault. But regardless of whose fault it was, the end result is consumers were stuck with some truly second-tier GPUs for many years
    - stephenr 5y ago
      ... what are you talking about? The fix was to replace the mainboard. I know this, because I had it done several times.

AltruisticGapHN 5y ago

It's literally just one game? Fortnite? Which is really a cash cow at this point. Epic couldn't care less about you, or smaller developers. Which is what is most disingenuous on their part, to pretend like they're the "small guy".

xyzzy21 5y ago

It may also be illegal both from an anti-trust legal view and from a contract legal view. IANAL but I hire them frequently for advice.

sbuk 5y ago
The judge literally just ruled that it wasn't.
- eldaisfish 5y ago
  .. based on precedents where none of them were digital. Every single precedent cited in this judgement pre-internet.
  - etchalon 5y ago
    Laws aren't different because "digital".
  - lostlogin 5y ago
    That doesn’t change the ruling. Appeal might, but as things stand, this has been litigated.

sendtown_expwy 5y ago

"Fortnite will be blacklisted from the Apple ecosystem until the exhaustion of all court appeals" It's not about sticking it to them. It's to increase the cost of their appeals and pressure them to drop the case.

Salgat 5y ago
That sounds like "sticking it to them" to me. The alternative is that Apple lets them back on, stops paying for an expensive lawsuit, and gets extra revenue from fortnite.
- spzb 5y ago
  Sounds like standard lawyer behaviour. They’re being paid by Apple to look after Apple’s interests.
  - jensensbutton 5y ago
    Are you saying Apple execs have zero say in the strategy they choose to pursue regarding the spat with Epic?
    - spzb 5y ago
      No I’m not but thanks for asking
- JiNCMG 5y ago
  Mobile Fortnite has been dying for over a year before all this started so not much of an income. Note: Most gamers move over to a non-mobile device for these games or at least a Nintendo Switch.

stiltzkin 5y ago

What percentage of their users play Epic games as Fortnite?

collsni 5y ago

That's Apple's whole model. Glad you figured it out

syshum 5y ago

Where you are wrong is believing Apple considers its users customers... They do not, this clear by the way they handle the ecosystem. See a customer buys something from a company, after which they own it Apple on the other hand does not have customers, they can not because they do not sell anything, dont be fooled by the high prices, and verbiage that indicates you are "buying" something, marketing that in a sane and just society would be considered illegal as deceptive No no, you simply rent the device from apple for a period of time determined by apple, and are given permission to use the device in ways only the owner (Apple) approves.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Apple is letting their desire to get vengeance outweigh the interests of their users in having all the games they want to play on their devices. Post-NeXT (or at least post-iPod) Apple has always been about total control of user experience, not letting users do all of <whatever category of activity> that they want. I don't think that vengeance is necessary to explain this.

tyingq 5y ago

I think Apple is also risking what this all looks like to lawmakers. Lawmakers who currently seem to be in a frenzy around anti-trust and/or anti-competitive behavior.

davidw 5y ago

I tried to explain the details to my son, but he's just disappointed that he can't play a game he liked. He wants to buy a Windows computer and is saving up for it. Trying to get him interested in writing a bit of code, which to me is more fun in some ways than playing games, without pushing it too hard, and so far no luck.

ehnto 5y ago
Have you been framing the coding as a way to make games? Basically the only reason I'm here was because I thought making games would be rad, then I realized programming on it's own is pretty rad, and then eventually adult life showed up and it was a natural step to make it a career.
ye_olde_gamer 5y ago
Maybe let him try modding existing games? Steam's community workshop pages are thriving, especially for easily modded titles like Bethesda games. Back in the day, Warcraft III had a built-in script and level editor and people thrived on making mods and entire new types of games with it (murder mysteries, tower defense, battle royale, DOTA...). It's how I got my start as a coder, modding games that I enjoyed without the boring pressure of "business logic". I think Fortnite itself has a creative mode with limited logical programming: https://www.firetechcamp.com/course/build-an-escape-room-in-fortnite-creative-mode/ https://www.firetechcamp.com/course/build-an-escape-room-in-... Proper modding support is supposed to arrive soon: https://www.pcgamer.com/fortnite-creative-mod-support/ https://www.pcgamer.com/fortnite-creative-mod-support/
- davidw 5y ago
  Cool! Any other games like that that people can recommend? Bonus points if it's fairly easy to get started.
  - ye_olde_gamer 5y ago
    I think there's a slight distinction to be made between "games that have built-in low/no-code content editors" and "games that can be modded via an SDK, but you have to code". The former are good for any creative kid (or adult!) and don't require you to learn a programming language, just logical thinking (as in logic gates/flows). The latter, depending on tooling, can require everything from simple Lua scripts (a common game modding language) all the way up to learning UnrealEngine or Unity. Games with built-in content editors: * Warcraft & Starcraft series (oldies but goodies) * Fortnite * Minecraft * Neverwinter Nights series * Divinity: Original Sin series * Age of Empires series Code-moddable games: Too many to list, see here: https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/Moddable/#p=0&tab=TopRated https://store.steampowered.com/tags/en/Moddable/#p=0&tab=Top... In particular I'd check out Warcraft, Neverwinter Nights' DM mode, and the DOS editor for a good sampling of what the industry can offer. They are a great stepping stone to actual programming, with triggers, conditionals, and other flow control structures all wrapped behind a veneer of fantasy gaming. (edit: sorry for potato formatting. no idea how HN handles text formatting)

ehnto 5y ago

> I understand Apple's decision to do this. They want to stick it to Epic. Completely understandable desire on Apple's part. Are they businesses or school children?