3 ms·

I don't know enough about the EU to say if the laws will adapt. But in the US, I very much view it as once something is legislated it becomes a permanent fixtu

I don't know enough about the EU to say if the laws will adapt. But in the US, I very much view it as once something is legislated it becomes a permanent fixture of our society.

toyg 5y ago
This is already a change from previous legislation that effectively mandated micro-USB. So yeah, it can be done.
- rglullis 5y ago
  Does it count if no one ever complied to this legislation? Where are the micro-usb iPhones?
  - lrem 5y ago
    Apple complied by adding a free dongle to every iPhone sold in the EU.
    - rglullis 5y ago
      That's the opposite of compliance. Not only they didn't get to change their own product to match some standard, they went straight against the spirit of the law (add more electronics and yet-another source of waste).
      - shawnz 5y ago
        It was still considered a success because it at least reduced the need for proprietary AC adapters. Now it seems they want to expand on that to fix the proprietary cable/dongle issue too.
        jaywalk 5y ago
        You never needed a proprietary AC adapter to charge an iPhone, just a "proprietary" cable.
        shawnz 5y ago
        Without the dongle you couldn't use iPhones with micro-USB AC adapters that don't have detachable cables. However I agree that besides that specific circumstance, they were basically already compliant. The 2009 initiative wasn't targeting Apple specifically.
  - toyg 5y ago
    Apple "complied" by putting USB-A on their chargers and calling it a day. EU authorities grumbled but didn't opt for a lenghty legal challenge; instead, they talked a bit more and came up with this updated legislation. Note how they give Apple something (the unbundled charger) while becoming more restrictive in other areas... if Apple continue taking the piss after this gets passed, I expect the hammer will come down.
    - rglullis 5y ago
      > I expect the hammer will come down. So, what are they going to do? Fine Apple for a couple of million euros? Give another reason for Apple to increase the prices of their products even more?
      - TazeTSchnitzel 5y ago
        They would block all shipments of Apple devices at the border of the EU after a certain point. The EU controls the customs rules for most of Europe.
        rglullis 5y ago
        So, it's the latter. They will have another excuse to increase the prices further. "We had to spend $BILLIONS to change the design of the iPhone, so this is why the new iPhone EU Edition is going to be 1400€". This is the kind of thing that really makes me understand Brexit.
        toyg 5y ago
        Nobody forces you to buy a consumer-unfriendly product that also happens to be arbitrarily expensive. If somebody in Milan can't afford a Ferrari made in Maranello because the damn company insists in pricing their cars beyond what is reasonable for a 4-wheeled vehicle, it doesn't mean Milan should secede from Italy, surely.
        dmitriid 5y ago
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  Man, lightning is FAR better than the fragile micro-USB. I’ve had to repair microUSB ports multiple times.
  - toyg 5y ago
    From the perspective of a free and non-monopolistic market, anything from the USB consortium is massively better than an expensive proprietary standard controlled by a single vendor. Technical superiority is not the point.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      I would say it’s easily possible to pick a standard that is so subpar compared to a proprietary one that it’s worse for the consumer. A solution would be to just require any port used to be freely available and open. Require Apple to open the lightning standard and make IP related to it unenforceable.
      - toyg 5y ago
        So you are a communist thieve of IP !!11!! Who will ever design a plug again, if it can be stolen from them by the government?!?!? /s Honestly, this is the result of dialogue between consumers, authorities, and manufacturers, including Apple. It tries to do the right thing under the circumstances. Apple could have avoided this sort of thing entirely if they were only a bit less greedy than they are.
        galgalesh 5y ago
        > So you are a communist thieve of IP !!11!! Who will ever design a plug again, if it can be stolen from them by the government?!?!? /s "jokes" like that are counter-productive to a good discussion. HN is not a place for such comments. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - asddubs 5y ago
    micro usb does kind of suck, but it's vastly better than every phone having a different proprietary charger like it was before smartphones
ortusdux 5y ago
I am a huge proponent of sunset provisions, especially when legislating tech and things that correlate with tech advances.
arghwhat 5y ago
It might mean that it won't change as often as through a free market, but laws adapt. On the other hand, things also become permanent fixtures without law. Like USB-A connectors having been stuck on laptops and desktops for more than 20 years.
- grepfru_it 5y ago
  MIDI 1.1 would like to have a word with you
marcosdumay 5y ago
The usual way to legislate about this kind of thing is that a legislative body writes down the goals and gives the responsibility over the technical design for a much faster executive body. But I'm not sure the EU even has an executive body that could receive it. So I'm not sure about how this one is done. Anyway, since this is a revision already, it seems to be adapting reasonably fast.
- toyg 5y ago
  The EU executive body is the Commission itself. When it comes to technical details, what happens depends on the actual legislation. There are plenty of technical committees in Bruxelles (in fact, some would say there are too many of those...), but for situations where some trickery in application or enforcement is expected, directives stay light on details and national governments will then get a good degree of freedom in adapting the rules. If a government implements a directive badly, it will eventually be challenged in the European Court of Justice, that will decide if the national rules follow the spirit of the directive.
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
>But in the US, I very much view it as once something is legislated it becomes a permanent fixture of our society. once something is legislated on it is a permanent fixture of society that that thing will be legislated, but that does not mean that legislation, in the U.S as well, is not updated. https://law.gwu.libguides.com/electricity/laws-LH https://law.gwu.libguides.com/electricity/laws-LH

I don't know enough about the EU to say if the laws will adapt. But in the US, I very much view it as once something is legislated it becomes a permanent fixture of our society.

toyg 5y ago

This is already a change from previous legislation that effectively mandated micro-USB. So yeah, it can be done.

rglullis 5y ago
Does it count if no one ever complied to this legislation? Where are the micro-usb iPhones?
- lrem 5y ago
  Apple complied by adding a free dongle to every iPhone sold in the EU.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    That's the opposite of compliance. Not only they didn't get to change their own product to match some standard, they went straight against the spirit of the law (add more electronics and yet-another source of waste).
    - shawnz 5y ago
      It was still considered a success because it at least reduced the need for proprietary AC adapters. Now it seems they want to expand on that to fix the proprietary cable/dongle issue too.
      - jaywalk 5y ago
        You never needed a proprietary AC adapter to charge an iPhone, just a "proprietary" cable.
        shawnz 5y ago
        Without the dongle you couldn't use iPhones with micro-USB AC adapters that don't have detachable cables. However I agree that besides that specific circumstance, they were basically already compliant. The 2009 initiative wasn't targeting Apple specifically.
- toyg 5y ago
  Apple "complied" by putting USB-A on their chargers and calling it a day. EU authorities grumbled but didn't opt for a lenghty legal challenge; instead, they talked a bit more and came up with this updated legislation. Note how they give Apple something (the unbundled charger) while becoming more restrictive in other areas... if Apple continue taking the piss after this gets passed, I expect the hammer will come down.
  - rglullis 5y ago
    > I expect the hammer will come down. So, what are they going to do? Fine Apple for a couple of million euros? Give another reason for Apple to increase the prices of their products even more?
    - TazeTSchnitzel 5y ago
      They would block all shipments of Apple devices at the border of the EU after a certain point. The EU controls the customs rules for most of Europe.
      - rglullis 5y ago
        So, it's the latter. They will have another excuse to increase the prices further. "We had to spend $BILLIONS to change the design of the iPhone, so this is why the new iPhone EU Edition is going to be 1400€". This is the kind of thing that really makes me understand Brexit.
        toyg 5y ago
        Nobody forces you to buy a consumer-unfriendly product that also happens to be arbitrarily expensive. If somebody in Milan can't afford a Ferrari made in Maranello because the damn company insists in pricing their cars beyond what is reasonable for a 4-wheeled vehicle, it doesn't mean Milan should secede from Italy, surely.
        dmitriid 5y ago
Robotbeat 5y ago
Man, lightning is FAR better than the fragile micro-USB. I’ve had to repair microUSB ports multiple times.
- toyg 5y ago
  From the perspective of a free and non-monopolistic market, anything from the USB consortium is massively better than an expensive proprietary standard controlled by a single vendor. Technical superiority is not the point.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    I would say it’s easily possible to pick a standard that is so subpar compared to a proprietary one that it’s worse for the consumer. A solution would be to just require any port used to be freely available and open. Require Apple to open the lightning standard and make IP related to it unenforceable.
    - toyg 5y ago
      So you are a communist thieve of IP !!11!! Who will ever design a plug again, if it can be stolen from them by the government?!?!? /s Honestly, this is the result of dialogue between consumers, authorities, and manufacturers, including Apple. It tries to do the right thing under the circumstances. Apple could have avoided this sort of thing entirely if they were only a bit less greedy than they are.
      - galgalesh 5y ago
        > So you are a communist thieve of IP !!11!! Who will ever design a plug again, if it can be stolen from them by the government?!?!? /s "jokes" like that are counter-productive to a good discussion. HN is not a place for such comments. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- asddubs 5y ago
  micro usb does kind of suck, but it's vastly better than every phone having a different proprietary charger like it was before smartphones

ortusdux 5y ago

I am a huge proponent of sunset provisions, especially when legislating tech and things that correlate with tech advances.

arghwhat 5y ago

It might mean that it won't change as often as through a free market, but laws adapt. On the other hand, things also become permanent fixtures without law. Like USB-A connectors having been stuck on laptops and desktops for more than 20 years.

grepfru_it 5y ago
MIDI 1.1 would like to have a word with you

marcosdumay 5y ago

The usual way to legislate about this kind of thing is that a legislative body writes down the goals and gives the responsibility over the technical design for a much faster executive body. But I'm not sure the EU even has an executive body that could receive it. So I'm not sure about how this one is done. Anyway, since this is a revision already, it seems to be adapting reasonably fast.

toyg 5y ago
The EU executive body is the Commission itself. When it comes to technical details, what happens depends on the actual legislation. There are plenty of technical committees in Bruxelles (in fact, some would say there are too many of those...), but for situations where some trickery in application or enforcement is expected, directives stay light on details and national governments will then get a good degree of freedom in adapting the rules. If a government implements a directive badly, it will eventually be challenged in the European Court of Justice, that will decide if the national rules follow the spirit of the directive.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

>But in the US, I very much view it as once something is legislated it becomes a permanent fixture of our society. once something is legislated on it is a permanent fixture of society that that thing will be legislated, but that does not mean that legislation, in the U.S as well, is not updated. https://law.gwu.libguides.com/electricity/laws-LH https://law.gwu.libguides.com/electricity/laws-LH