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This is a terrible idea, because it solves practically nothing. Great, we can all agree on when "1pm" is, but now tell me: is that outside of working hours in I

This is a terrible idea, because it solves practically nothing. Great, we can all agree on when "1pm" is, but now tell me: is that outside of working hours in India? When is their lunch hour? Do I just have to memorize this? Timezones aren't fun, but at least we all agree that we work 9am-5pm, wherever you are. EDIT: The 9am-5pm example is just to point out that everyone has a rough understanding of e.g., when 6pm is regardless of location. "Don't call someone at 3am."

thaumasiotes 5y ago
> at least we all agree that we work 9am-5pm, wherever you are. I've never heard a less compelling, or more facially ludicrous, argument. That's not even something people all agree on within the same small town.
- phailhaus 5y ago
  Yes, they do. When you say 6pm, everyone has an understanding of roughly when that is. Oops, it's early morning in India. How do you keep track of these translations? You'll just end up reinventing timezones again with extra steps.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > When you say 6pm, everyone has an understanding of roughly when that is. OK. How is that related to the claim "we all agree that we work 9am - 5pm"?
    - phailhaus 5y ago
      See edit in original post. The point is that we all know when 9am is regardless of location. For those that work in office settings (which is a massive group of people), yes, 9am-5pm tends to be the rule. The reason we can do that is because 9am is more or less the same "time" everywhere. If you don't have timezones, times cease to have any meaning. 1pm where? In New York? Great, that's after lunch. In India? Oh no, that's late at night.
      - chrismorgan 5y ago
        You keep on defining things in terms of cultural artefacts that are simply not consistent even in one area, let alone worldwide. A 9–5 work day, a meal called “lunch” that concluded by 1pm—well, I seldom eat lunch before 2pm (and 5pm is not uncommon), and I know people who don’t have any meal that would match the description or schedule of “lunch”. 9–5, 9–6, 8–4, 7–3, 11—7, these are all common in different places, and outliers with far less overlap—perhaps even none—are common. And that’s just for office sorts of work; count other types of work and especially asynchronous remote work and the disparities get far more extreme. I know full-timers that will be working from 6am until before 3pm, and others that will be working from 6pm until 3am. And latitudes and seasons affect things drastically too. Look, time zones give you some hints, but they’re really pretty weak hints.
        phailhaus 5y ago
        I disagree, timezones give you some pretty strong hints. I know for a fact that 1pm in India is in the middle of the day. I don't have to do a translation and realize "wait, that's actually equivalent to my 10:30pm". Those two are diametrically opposite. And see what I just did there, that translation? It's timezones all over again! We have timezones because we realized that no matter what we do, we're going to want to convert back into a time that we understand. It's easier for everyone to have a common understanding of 1pm, rather than maintaining mental lookup tables of "1pm in NYC is mid-dayish" vs "1pm in India is midnight-ish". That's not maintainable.
        bluGill 5y ago
        1pm in India doesn't give you any useful information about when the local culture sets work hour. I work with people in India, and often get IMs from them and when I look at their time I wonder why they are still working at 1am. Some off the teams over there need to work with Americans enough that they have adjusted their work hours to meet ours, while others have not. Thus I need to ask each team what a reasonable time for a meeting is no matter what.
        5y ago
interestica 5y ago
> ...but at least we all agree that we work 9am-5pm, wherever you are. Do we?
kube-system 5y ago
> everyone has a rough understanding of e.g., when 6pm is regardless of location. "Don't call someone at 3am." Have you ever worked with someone outside of your time zone? I routinely have to ask people what time zone they’re in before I schedule meetings.
- phailhaus 5y ago
  Yes exactly! Now suppose timezones aren't a thing, and "5pm" is fixed. How do you coordinate? Is 1pm right around lunchtime, or is it in the middle of the night for them? You'll end up converting between "their 5pm" and "my 5pm", which is just timezones again but worse.
  - disgruntledphd2 5y ago
    I honestly can't believe this discussion is happening again. It feels like I've read identical arguments every time (though I now believe that DST feelings are primarily determined by latitude rather than anything else).
  - bluGill 5y ago
    Different people around the world have different working and eating hours so we have that discussion no matter what. I know people who eat lunch at 2pm and supper at 9pm. My kids get lunch at 10:30am in school.
    - phailhaus 5y ago
      I feel like you're missing the point... Nobody eats lunch at literally the same time, but 2pm for me is not the middle of the night for you. Those are two completely different times of day. In the current system, because we both have a common understanding of when 2pm is, it is easier for us to communicate. The alternative you are proposing doesn't solve anything: I still have to convert from "my 2pm" to "your 2pm". I still need a lookup table, but now the actual time itself gives me no information. It's a downgrade. Here's a question for you: in your system how do you communicate what "time of day" it is at your location? When you arrive in a new timezone, how do you know how much to adjust your schedule by?

thaumasiotes 5y ago

> at least we all agree that we work 9am-5pm, wherever you are. I've never heard a less compelling, or more facially ludicrous, argument. That's not even something people all agree on within the same small town.

phailhaus 5y ago
Yes, they do. When you say 6pm, everyone has an understanding of roughly when that is. Oops, it's early morning in India. How do you keep track of these translations? You'll just end up reinventing timezones again with extra steps.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > When you say 6pm, everyone has an understanding of roughly when that is. OK. How is that related to the claim "we all agree that we work 9am - 5pm"?
  - phailhaus 5y ago
    See edit in original post. The point is that we all know when 9am is regardless of location. For those that work in office settings (which is a massive group of people), yes, 9am-5pm tends to be the rule. The reason we can do that is because 9am is more or less the same "time" everywhere. If you don't have timezones, times cease to have any meaning. 1pm where? In New York? Great, that's after lunch. In India? Oh no, that's late at night.
    - chrismorgan 5y ago
      You keep on defining things in terms of cultural artefacts that are simply not consistent even in one area, let alone worldwide. A 9–5 work day, a meal called “lunch” that concluded by 1pm—well, I seldom eat lunch before 2pm (and 5pm is not uncommon), and I know people who don’t have any meal that would match the description or schedule of “lunch”. 9–5, 9–6, 8–4, 7–3, 11—7, these are all common in different places, and outliers with far less overlap—perhaps even none—are common. And that’s just for office sorts of work; count other types of work and especially asynchronous remote work and the disparities get far more extreme. I know full-timers that will be working from 6am until before 3pm, and others that will be working from 6pm until 3am. And latitudes and seasons affect things drastically too. Look, time zones give you some hints, but they’re really pretty weak hints.
      - phailhaus 5y ago
        I disagree, timezones give you some pretty strong hints. I know for a fact that 1pm in India is in the middle of the day. I don't have to do a translation and realize "wait, that's actually equivalent to my 10:30pm". Those two are diametrically opposite. And see what I just did there, that translation? It's timezones all over again! We have timezones because we realized that no matter what we do, we're going to want to convert back into a time that we understand. It's easier for everyone to have a common understanding of 1pm, rather than maintaining mental lookup tables of "1pm in NYC is mid-dayish" vs "1pm in India is midnight-ish". That's not maintainable.
        bluGill 5y ago
        1pm in India doesn't give you any useful information about when the local culture sets work hour. I work with people in India, and often get IMs from them and when I look at their time I wonder why they are still working at 1am. Some off the teams over there need to work with Americans enough that they have adjusted their work hours to meet ours, while others have not. Thus I need to ask each team what a reasonable time for a meeting is no matter what.
        5y ago

interestica 5y ago

> ...but at least we all agree that we work 9am-5pm, wherever you are. Do we?

kube-system 5y ago

> everyone has a rough understanding of e.g., when 6pm is regardless of location. "Don't call someone at 3am." Have you ever worked with someone outside of your time zone? I routinely have to ask people what time zone they’re in before I schedule meetings.

phailhaus 5y ago
Yes exactly! Now suppose timezones aren't a thing, and "5pm" is fixed. How do you coordinate? Is 1pm right around lunchtime, or is it in the middle of the night for them? You'll end up converting between "their 5pm" and "my 5pm", which is just timezones again but worse.
- disgruntledphd2 5y ago
  I honestly can't believe this discussion is happening again. It feels like I've read identical arguments every time (though I now believe that DST feelings are primarily determined by latitude rather than anything else).
- bluGill 5y ago
  Different people around the world have different working and eating hours so we have that discussion no matter what. I know people who eat lunch at 2pm and supper at 9pm. My kids get lunch at 10:30am in school.
  - phailhaus 5y ago
    I feel like you're missing the point... Nobody eats lunch at literally the same time, but 2pm for me is not the middle of the night for you. Those are two completely different times of day. In the current system, because we both have a common understanding of when 2pm is, it is easier for us to communicate. The alternative you are proposing doesn't solve anything: I still have to convert from "my 2pm" to "your 2pm". I still need a lookup table, but now the actual time itself gives me no information. It's a downgrade. Here's a question for you: in your system how do you communicate what "time of day" it is at your location? When you arrive in a new timezone, how do you know how much to adjust your schedule by?