14 ms·

I am afraid it does not matter any more, at least not for practical software freedom. Most Android devices these days have bootloaders that cannot be unlocked,

by c0l0 5y ago

I am afraid it does not matter any more, at least not for practical software freedom. Most Android devices these days have bootloaders that cannot be unlocked, preventing device owners from installing custom kernel images onto their devices. And even if you have a phone where that isn't true, Google's SafetyNet will prevent you from using many crucial applications, like your bank's Android app, on that handset. It's an awful situation for people who would rather install software provided by a third party onto their hardware (due to not trusting the device manufacturer enough to only include software in their best interest, which is a very reasonable stance in my book), but I don't think there's a way out any more.

krageon 5y ago
> your bank's Android app Worst comes to worst you can decompile it and take out the checks, but it is admittedly a huge hassle.
- looperhacks 5y ago
  Not really. Safetynet runs on Google servers and communicate with your banks servers (if they have that enabled). If a modded app removes these checks, the bank will notice because they ask Google whether your device fulfills all requirements.
- danogentili 5y ago
  You can't really do that with safetynet, as it relies on sending an (often signed with a hardware key) payload to the servers of the app, which then connect to Google's server for validation, before allowing access to the APIs the app requires.
  - krageon 5y ago
    The checks I've seen when I have explored the possibility of doing this (in an explicitly legal way, I had permission) were easily bypassable client-side. It's not generally a good idea to assume the heaviest option was picked when a simpler one could also have been picked.
- arsome 5y ago
  The problem is SafetyNet uses remote attestation. And if the bank app is implemented properly that won't work because the server will check they attestation and fail your login. They very well may not bother with this though since they offer a web version anyways... which kind of makes the whole idea of putting root checking in the app pointless. Right now at least, there's no hardware attestation on many devices so you can just install Magisk and hide the fact you're rooted pretty easily from SafetyNet and still pass.
  - dane-pgp 5y ago
    > Right now at least, there's no hardware attestation on many devices How long do you think it will be before a country requires that all smartphones support this? And how long before it is a requirement for laptops too?
    - blibble 5y ago
      not sure about smartphones but Windows 11 will require a TPM, presumably for remote attestation
      - dane-pgp 5y ago
        That's a good point. Anyone who suspects that the government pressured Apple to add on-device file scanning (under the guise of "think of the children") should also conclude that making TPMs a requirement is intended to lay the groundwork for a future legislative change (presumably under the guise of "cyber-security").
ignoramous 5y ago
Replacing OEM Android is only one part of the equation. There are many components that run with full privileges (EL2/EL3?) outside of Android and never subject to Android's sandbox. Well, at least until Google can force OEMs to stricter standards with their effort to KVMize those privileged executables [0]. If you do not trust the OEM, replacing its ROM with GrapheneOS / CalyxOS / LineageOS isn't going to help much anyway. One right answer to this is fully open-source (hardware and software) phones like the PINE64 and Librem, among others. [0] https://lwn.net/Articles/836693/ https://lwn.net/Articles/836693/
- jacob019 5y ago
  I'm happy with my degoogled phone. There are so many great open source apps on f-droid. Still, it's 2021 and I need a few closed source apps on my main driver, so Aurora Store, MicroG, AdAway. Ok so I'm still using google servers for push notifications of the closed apps--compromises. I still have way more control and battery life. I love the idea of a linux phone, and maybe I could sacrafice the last few closed apps, but what I hear from users is that the hardware sucks. I want a nice phone.
  - deivid 5y ago
    you can get something like ubports on a poco f1. the apps will probably be lacking for you though
techrat 5y ago
> Most Android devices these days have bootloaders that cannot be unlocked [citation needed] I'm finding the majority of devices to be unlockable as long as you don't buy your device from a carrier. Carrier locked devices are not typically the norm but in the US. And if you truly cared about software freedom, you wouldn't be buying carrier locked devices in the first place. I really wish people would stop griping about losing security features when you flip the one switch that ensures the security of the system. Unlocking the bootloader means it is now possible to modify system files. Of course Safetynet is going to fail. The point of Safetynet is to ensure the system hasn't been tampered with. However, despite all of your doom and gloom posturing without actual examples, I've yet to actually use a single app (and I use several banking and root detecting apps like remote features for my car) that will prevent me from continuing to use the app if rooted. It just pops up and says "We see you're using a rooted device, this is not recommended." I click "OK" and proceed as normal. The alternative is to use Apple and whelp, that'll never happen... since I actually do care about software freedom.
- the8472 5y ago
  > I really wish people would stop griping about losing security features when you flip the one switch that ensures the security of the system. Unlocking the bootloader means it is now possible to modify system files. Of course Safetynet is going to fail. The point of Safetynet is to ensure the system hasn't been tampered with. That's pretty much drinking the DRM koolaid. You can have both, verified boot and freedom. All it takes is a mechanism to replace the manufacturer's trust root with an owner-supplied one. The process would wipe anything secured by the trusted components (including keys securing the user data) but that should be fine since you can make a backup. The only thing that wouldn't work is software that wants to ensure that the user has no control over the system - DRM or "the user is too dumb to be trusted with their own device" security theater.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    It is no longer a security theater when the user gets a malicious app installed, that takes over their bank management app.
izacus 5y ago
> Most Android devices these days have bootloaders that cannot be unlocked, preventing device owners from installing custom kernel images onto their devices. And even if you have a phone where that isn't true, Google's SafetyNet will prevent you from using many crucial applications, like your bank's Android app, on that handset. Googles own devices not only allow you to unlock the bootloader, but to relock it with your own signing keys. So your statement is just wierd - if you care, vote with your wallet and don't complain how "most devices" don't give you feature you're not ready to pay for.
- gchamonlive 5y ago
  Except Pixel phones are not officially available worldwide.
- SXX 5y ago
  > Googles own devices not only allow you to unlock the bootloader, but to relock it with your own signing keys. And does it let you pass SafetyNet and run most of the apps. AFAIK it's not so re-lockable bootloader is useless.
  - dmm 5y ago
    I use a pixel phone with my own signing keys and I find it very useful. I can live without SafetyNet, whatever that is.
    - krzyk 5y ago
      It basically allows you running most banking apps (and anything that is related to money).
      - bilkow 5y ago
        Where I live, both of my banking apps work without SafetyNet and even Google Play Services. I have missed one or another app for having no Play Services, but nothing too important and it's offset by having the option to block all internet connection for other apps.
Semaphor 5y ago
Most I see are unlockable, but then I’d check first anyway. > And even if you have a phone where that isn't true, Google's SafetyNet will prevent you from using many crucial applications, like your bank's Android app, on that handset. There is still MagiskHide, though it often requires a bunch of trial and error to get it working. In addition, there are still banks with apps that allow you to install them on rooted devices (N26 in Germany is such a bank).
- seniorivn 5y ago
  as far is i know, the main(almost only) magisk developer got hired by google this summer, so it's likely there won't be magiskhide anymore
  - Semaphor 5y ago
    Thanks for the info. Looks like it will indeed be dropped, [0] has some more details. I stopped using it because the whole cat-and-mouse game that is mentioned was too annoying for me as well, probably a lot worse for the dev. [0] https://www.xda-developers.com/magisk-development-continues-without-magiskhide/ https://www.xda-developers.com/magisk-development-continues-...
marbu 5y ago
While this won't solve all problems with practical software freedom, it's still an important step into right direction, which will definitely help the free software ecosystem. You can still buy phones with bootloader which can be unlocked, such as sony[1], but I agree that most doesn't have this option. The fact that google's proprietary services are necessary for most proprietary applications to work doesn't mean that there isn't a value in a phone running kernel which is closer to an upstream. When you run a custom operating system based on linux kernel, you are less likely to run the proprietary google services anyway. [1] https://developer.sony.com/develop/open-devices/get-started/unlock-bootloader/ https://developer.sony.com/develop/open-devices/get-started/...
- summm 5y ago
  Sony? Who promise only 2 years of security updates on their 1300€ phones, which turns out to be only 1.5 years after their usual delay to HW availability, and for most of their better phones they never provide any open source support? Nope...
marcodiego 5y ago
> I am afraid it does not matter any more, at least not for practical software freedom. These new policies allow more "cross pollination" between mainline linux and the fork used by android. Waydroid running smoothly on an unmodified kernel is a result of this. Waydroid is important "for practical software freedom" because it allows pinephone and librem-5 to run android apps.
codedokode 5y ago
> Google's SafetyNet will prevent you from using many crucial applications, like your bank's Android app I don't think that installing your bank's app is a good idea. First, banks are interested in collecting as much data about their customers as possible so the app will be used as a spyware. Second, installing an app eliminates second factor for authorization - now if your phone gets hacked, the criminals will be able to steal all your savings. It is better to use only bank's website from desktop computer and use a phone only as a second factor to confirm transactions.
bsdubernerd 5y ago
I wish I could upvote you more. There's nothing about "freedom" in this post, it's all about developer's convenience. It's easier to keep local changes and push them later if the upstream is not changing much. If your upstream is a moving target, doing anything but upstream-first is only making it worse for yourself in the long run. Nothing to add regarding bootloader locking and safetynet on top. I don't want multiple phones (I actually don't want one), but I was forced to to install my banking app 2nd factor app. I cannot root it, I cannot remove GA, safetynet prevents me to reflash it with something else, even though I theoretically can. The best part is that at some point you can choose between: - old/vulnerable/unpatchable android with safetynet => banking apps will be happy to work with it or - new fixed android which is safer, but won't pass safetynet Yeah.. "safety".
- summm 5y ago
  Instead of replacing your phone, have you thought about replacing your bank? Is there any competition that does not force this bullshit onto it's customers?
  - bsdubernerd 5y ago
    Yes. I couldn't. The alternatives were worse. I need remote banking (travelling too frequently). No alternative allowed plain login without a second factor. I've seen other banks here _charging_ for the hardware OTP dongle separately. The yearly price of the dongle was more expensive than simply getting another crap phone and installing the app.
thingification 5y ago
> I don't think there's a way out any more. Whenever you estimate something bad to be inevitable like this, please consider the many terrible inevitable things in the past. Those in the past thought they were inevitable, but they weren't. - everyday violence on a much higher level than today - inability to correct mistakes of government in the long run (voting, free speech) - lack of power of women - vulnerability to many diseases - protection of law I think any one of these is composed of many traditions that when I think about them seem almost impossible to come about, in the same way that an evolved animal seems remarkable: how did that ever happen? They do happen! People worked hard and incrementally to make them happen. Estimating them to be inevitable I think can be a discouragement to that hard work.
DCKing 5y ago
> I am afraid it does not matter any more, at least not for practical software freedom. The reason Google appears to be doing this is not software freedom, but enabling longer software updates. Google themselves cannot provide anything remotely competitive to iOS updates if Qualcomm or other SoC vendors effectively keep their proprietary Android builds hostage. Getting stuff mainlined and unshackling Android kernels from vendor shenanigans is a very, very important step. The Google Pixel 6 is the first time in a long while an Android phone excites me, just by virtue of Google's credible 5 years of update promise. To your point: practical software freedom has been very, very hard on Android from the start. Smartphones are complex devices, and the custom kernels they run have barely been successfully reproduced anywhere else. You can find a small handful of old devices that you can get up and running in a somewhat acceptable state, but you have to restrict yourself to hard to use old stuff to get anything workable at all. While more software freedom is not really a goal of this project, this does potentially have side effects of more software freedom down the line. Similarly, Google's Project Treble has not delivered everything people wanted, but does allow people to run say (a buggy version of) Ubuntu Touch on a fair number of Android phones [0]. In the Android ecosystem, you have to count your blessings. (And hey, it's not iOS or Windows Phone either!) [0]: https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/gsi-arm64-a-ab-ubuntu-touch-ubports.4110581/ https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/gsi-arm64-a-ab-ubuntu-tou...

by c0l0 5y ago

krageon 5y ago

> your bank's Android app Worst comes to worst you can decompile it and take out the checks, but it is admittedly a huge hassle.

looperhacks 5y ago
Not really. Safetynet runs on Google servers and communicate with your banks servers (if they have that enabled). If a modded app removes these checks, the bank will notice because they ask Google whether your device fulfills all requirements.
danogentili 5y ago
You can't really do that with safetynet, as it relies on sending an (often signed with a hardware key) payload to the servers of the app, which then connect to Google's server for validation, before allowing access to the APIs the app requires.
- krageon 5y ago
  The checks I've seen when I have explored the possibility of doing this (in an explicitly legal way, I had permission) were easily bypassable client-side. It's not generally a good idea to assume the heaviest option was picked when a simpler one could also have been picked.
arsome 5y ago
The problem is SafetyNet uses remote attestation. And if the bank app is implemented properly that won't work because the server will check they attestation and fail your login. They very well may not bother with this though since they offer a web version anyways... which kind of makes the whole idea of putting root checking in the app pointless. Right now at least, there's no hardware attestation on many devices so you can just install Magisk and hide the fact you're rooted pretty easily from SafetyNet and still pass.
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  > Right now at least, there's no hardware attestation on many devices How long do you think it will be before a country requires that all smartphones support this? And how long before it is a requirement for laptops too?
  - blibble 5y ago
    not sure about smartphones but Windows 11 will require a TPM, presumably for remote attestation
    - dane-pgp 5y ago
      That's a good point. Anyone who suspects that the government pressured Apple to add on-device file scanning (under the guise of "think of the children") should also conclude that making TPMs a requirement is intended to lay the groundwork for a future legislative change (presumably under the guise of "cyber-security").

ignoramous 5y ago

Replacing OEM Android is only one part of the equation. There are many components that run with full privileges (EL2/EL3?) outside of Android and never subject to Android's sandbox. Well, at least until Google can force OEMs to stricter standards with their effort to KVMize those privileged executables [0]. If you do not trust the OEM, replacing its ROM with GrapheneOS / CalyxOS / LineageOS isn't going to help much anyway. One right answer to this is fully open-source (hardware and software) phones like the PINE64 and Librem, among others. [0] https://lwn.net/Articles/836693/ https://lwn.net/Articles/836693/

jacob019 5y ago
I'm happy with my degoogled phone. There are so many great open source apps on f-droid. Still, it's 2021 and I need a few closed source apps on my main driver, so Aurora Store, MicroG, AdAway. Ok so I'm still using google servers for push notifications of the closed apps--compromises. I still have way more control and battery life. I love the idea of a linux phone, and maybe I could sacrafice the last few closed apps, but what I hear from users is that the hardware sucks. I want a nice phone.
- deivid 5y ago
  you can get something like ubports on a poco f1. the apps will probably be lacking for you though

techrat 5y ago

> Most Android devices these days have bootloaders that cannot be unlocked [citation needed] I'm finding the majority of devices to be unlockable as long as you don't buy your device from a carrier. Carrier locked devices are not typically the norm but in the US. And if you truly cared about software freedom, you wouldn't be buying carrier locked devices in the first place. I really wish people would stop griping about losing security features when you flip the one switch that ensures the security of the system. Unlocking the bootloader means it is now possible to modify system files. Of course Safetynet is going to fail. The point of Safetynet is to ensure the system hasn't been tampered with. However, despite all of your doom and gloom posturing without actual examples, I've yet to actually use a single app (and I use several banking and root detecting apps like remote features for my car) that will prevent me from continuing to use the app if rooted. It just pops up and says "We see you're using a rooted device, this is not recommended." I click "OK" and proceed as normal. The alternative is to use Apple and whelp, that'll never happen... since I actually do care about software freedom.

the8472 5y ago
> I really wish people would stop griping about losing security features when you flip the one switch that ensures the security of the system. Unlocking the bootloader means it is now possible to modify system files. Of course Safetynet is going to fail. The point of Safetynet is to ensure the system hasn't been tampered with. That's pretty much drinking the DRM koolaid. You can have both, verified boot and freedom. All it takes is a mechanism to replace the manufacturer's trust root with an owner-supplied one. The process would wipe anything secured by the trusted components (including keys securing the user data) but that should be fine since you can make a backup. The only thing that wouldn't work is software that wants to ensure that the user has no control over the system - DRM or "the user is too dumb to be trusted with their own device" security theater.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  It is no longer a security theater when the user gets a malicious app installed, that takes over their bank management app.

izacus 5y ago

> Most Android devices these days have bootloaders that cannot be unlocked, preventing device owners from installing custom kernel images onto their devices. And even if you have a phone where that isn't true, Google's SafetyNet will prevent you from using many crucial applications, like your bank's Android app, on that handset. Googles own devices not only allow you to unlock the bootloader, but to relock it with your own signing keys. So your statement is just wierd - if you care, vote with your wallet and don't complain how "most devices" don't give you feature you're not ready to pay for.

gchamonlive 5y ago
Except Pixel phones are not officially available worldwide.
SXX 5y ago
> Googles own devices not only allow you to unlock the bootloader, but to relock it with your own signing keys. And does it let you pass SafetyNet and run most of the apps. AFAIK it's not so re-lockable bootloader is useless.
- dmm 5y ago
  I use a pixel phone with my own signing keys and I find it very useful. I can live without SafetyNet, whatever that is.
  - krzyk 5y ago
    It basically allows you running most banking apps (and anything that is related to money).
    - bilkow 5y ago
      Where I live, both of my banking apps work without SafetyNet and even Google Play Services. I have missed one or another app for having no Play Services, but nothing too important and it's offset by having the option to block all internet connection for other apps.

Semaphor 5y ago

Most I see are unlockable, but then I’d check first anyway. > And even if you have a phone where that isn't true, Google's SafetyNet will prevent you from using many crucial applications, like your bank's Android app, on that handset. There is still MagiskHide, though it often requires a bunch of trial and error to get it working. In addition, there are still banks with apps that allow you to install them on rooted devices (N26 in Germany is such a bank).

seniorivn 5y ago
as far is i know, the main(almost only) magisk developer got hired by google this summer, so it's likely there won't be magiskhide anymore
- Semaphor 5y ago
  Thanks for the info. Looks like it will indeed be dropped, [0] has some more details. I stopped using it because the whole cat-and-mouse game that is mentioned was too annoying for me as well, probably a lot worse for the dev. [0] https://www.xda-developers.com/magisk-development-continues-without-magiskhide/ https://www.xda-developers.com/magisk-development-continues-...

marbu 5y ago

While this won't solve all problems with practical software freedom, it's still an important step into right direction, which will definitely help the free software ecosystem. You can still buy phones with bootloader which can be unlocked, such as sony[1], but I agree that most doesn't have this option. The fact that google's proprietary services are necessary for most proprietary applications to work doesn't mean that there isn't a value in a phone running kernel which is closer to an upstream. When you run a custom operating system based on linux kernel, you are less likely to run the proprietary google services anyway. [1] https://developer.sony.com/develop/open-devices/get-started/unlock-bootloader/ https://developer.sony.com/develop/open-devices/get-started/...

summm 5y ago
Sony? Who promise only 2 years of security updates on their 1300€ phones, which turns out to be only 1.5 years after their usual delay to HW availability, and for most of their better phones they never provide any open source support? Nope...

marcodiego 5y ago

> I am afraid it does not matter any more, at least not for practical software freedom. These new policies allow more "cross pollination" between mainline linux and the fork used by android. Waydroid running smoothly on an unmodified kernel is a result of this. Waydroid is important "for practical software freedom" because it allows pinephone and librem-5 to run android apps.

codedokode 5y ago

> Google's SafetyNet will prevent you from using many crucial applications, like your bank's Android app I don't think that installing your bank's app is a good idea. First, banks are interested in collecting as much data about their customers as possible so the app will be used as a spyware. Second, installing an app eliminates second factor for authorization - now if your phone gets hacked, the criminals will be able to steal all your savings. It is better to use only bank's website from desktop computer and use a phone only as a second factor to confirm transactions.

bsdubernerd 5y ago

I wish I could upvote you more. There's nothing about "freedom" in this post, it's all about developer's convenience. It's easier to keep local changes and push them later if the upstream is not changing much. If your upstream is a moving target, doing anything but upstream-first is only making it worse for yourself in the long run. Nothing to add regarding bootloader locking and safetynet on top. I don't want multiple phones (I actually don't want one), but I was forced to to install my banking app 2nd factor app. I cannot root it, I cannot remove GA, safetynet prevents me to reflash it with something else, even though I theoretically can. The best part is that at some point you can choose between: - old/vulnerable/unpatchable android with safetynet => banking apps will be happy to work with it or - new fixed android which is safer, but won't pass safetynet Yeah.. "safety".

summm 5y ago
Instead of replacing your phone, have you thought about replacing your bank? Is there any competition that does not force this bullshit onto it's customers?
- bsdubernerd 5y ago
  Yes. I couldn't. The alternatives were worse. I need remote banking (travelling too frequently). No alternative allowed plain login without a second factor. I've seen other banks here _charging_ for the hardware OTP dongle separately. The yearly price of the dongle was more expensive than simply getting another crap phone and installing the app.

thingification 5y ago

> I don't think there's a way out any more. Whenever you estimate something bad to be inevitable like this, please consider the many terrible inevitable things in the past. Those in the past thought they were inevitable, but they weren't. - everyday violence on a much higher level than today - inability to correct mistakes of government in the long run (voting, free speech) - lack of power of women - vulnerability to many diseases - protection of law I think any one of these is composed of many traditions that when I think about them seem almost impossible to come about, in the same way that an evolved animal seems remarkable: how did that ever happen? They do happen! People worked hard and incrementally to make them happen. Estimating them to be inevitable I think can be a discouragement to that hard work.

DCKing 5y ago

> I am afraid it does not matter any more, at least not for practical software freedom. The reason Google appears to be doing this is not software freedom, but enabling longer software updates. Google themselves cannot provide anything remotely competitive to iOS updates if Qualcomm or other SoC vendors effectively keep their proprietary Android builds hostage. Getting stuff mainlined and unshackling Android kernels from vendor shenanigans is a very, very important step. The Google Pixel 6 is the first time in a long while an Android phone excites me, just by virtue of Google's credible 5 years of update promise. To your point: practical software freedom has been very, very hard on Android from the start. Smartphones are complex devices, and the custom kernels they run have barely been successfully reproduced anywhere else. You can find a small handful of old devices that you can get up and running in a somewhat acceptable state, but you have to restrict yourself to hard to use old stuff to get anything workable at all. While more software freedom is not really a goal of this project, this does potentially have side effects of more software freedom down the line. Similarly, Google's Project Treble has not delivered everything people wanted, but does allow people to run say (a buggy version of) Ubuntu Touch on a fair number of Android phones [0]. In the Android ecosystem, you have to count your blessings. (And hey, it's not iOS or Windows Phone either!) [0]: https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/gsi-arm64-a-ab-ubuntu-touch-ubports.4110581/ https://forum.xda-developers.com/t/gsi-arm64-a-ab-ubuntu-tou...