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It's interesting to compare the situation Epic got itself into with previous episodes of Facebook & Google breaking Apple's rules. When Facebook and Google mis

by jasode 5y ago

It's interesting to compare the situation Epic got itself into with previous episodes of Facebook & Google breaking Apple's rules. When Facebook and Google misused Developer Enterprise certificates to go beyond internal testing and distribute apps to end-consumers, Apple revoked their accounts. Both Facebook & Google simply admitted they screwed up and Apple reinstated their accounts.[1] No lawsuits. Epic broke Apple's in-app-purchase rules and now Epic promises they will comply but Epic didn't get their dev account reinstated yet. Big difference is that Epic rolled the dice by filing a lawsuit about Apple's unfair rules and because they thought there was enough anti-Apple sentiment that they'd get a sympathetic judgement in their favor. Their gamble didn't work and in the process, Tim Sweeny's defiant attitude just made Apple dig in their heels even further. I'm reminded of that quote, "you come at the King, you best not miss." EDIT reply to some comments saying Epic didn't make a "promise" to comply with Apple's rules: >Did i miss something where they actually said that? In this thread's Fireball blogpost is a link to Tim Sweeney's tweet of an email screenshot to Apple's Phil Schiller stating his "promise": >Sep 16, 2021 at 5:01 PM; Subject: Fortnite and the App Store; To: Phil Schiller >[..] Epic promises that it will adhere to Apple’s guidelines whenever and wherever we release products on Apple platforms.[...] [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=apple+reinstates+google+facebook+developer+account https://www.google.com/search?q=apple+reinstates+google+face...

gameswithgo 5y ago
Tim is in the fight for idealogical reasons, not calculated business ones.
- PedroBatista 5y ago
  And thank "God" for people like him[1]. Life is unbearable under Tim Cook's "vision", the greed, arrogance and pettiness is at an all-time high, and it's not like it was low before.. [1] Also, nothing is black and white, of course Tim/Epic were looking to get more money from what their customers paid.
  - rawbot 5y ago
    This isn't Tim Cook's vision. The closed nature of the App Store is Steve Jobs' legacy. Cook just refuses to kill the Golden Goose. I'm not a fan of Epic, but I hope Apple loses and we get some sort of alternate way to load applications on iOS devices.
    - OrvalWintermute 5y ago
      I actually think this is not the golden goose. 30% is enough to ensure that competitors arise, competitors outcompete them on everything plus price. If Appstore pricing was a neglible amount it would significantly impact the interest of competitors to enter the market. Obligatory Marvel Reference https://youtu.be/Bj6yMYaQPrw?t=75 https://youtu.be/Bj6yMYaQPrw?t=75
  - p2t2p 5y ago
    My life under Tim Cook's "vision" is pretty sweet when it comes to electronic devices. With a tap of a button I fill my house with lossless quality of music that is playing on astonishingly capable speakers. Those speakers also answer my questions and run automations on my phone which I can create in a very nice and user-friendly interface. I'm currently watching an episode of a TV Series that is playing from my NAS on my mac through the only player on my Mac (I tried mpv, IINA and VLC) that is capable of playing 8k MKVs without hiccups - Infuse. That player is a port from an iPad app btw. When I finished with my work I say "Hey, Siri, I'm done" and leave the room. Monitor's lightbar, other lights turns off. When it is getting dark my chosen lights turn on automatically, provided somebody's home. My printer doesn't consume electricity in the night because HomeKit automatically turns it off in the evening and turns it on in the morning. I don't need to worry about my daughter putting her fingers into shredder because it is always turned off. When I need it, I say "Hey Siri, turn on shredder". The shredder turns on and it then automatically turns off after 90 seconds. When I get in my car I have a very nice screen on the dashboard that most of the time is capable of guessing where I'm about to go and suggests one-tap navigation. And the music starts playing from where I left off. My photos are downloaded on several devices and backed up in the cloud. The albums are shared with my Mom who is very happy every time when I upload new photos of here granddaughter. My private drm-free music collection is also uploaded to the cloud and synchronised to every device I've got. I can say "Hey Siri, facetime Mom" and I'll see my mother's face over the distance of 17000km in a magnificent quality. My books are synchronised and downloaded across all my devices as well and whenever I feel like reading one, it's right here. None of those books were bought from Apple btw, they are DRM-free. The other day I was wondering if I should buy an iMac for my wife - would it fit in the kitchen or not? Well, there's AR technology on my phone that had no troubles presenting me how it would sit on the counter. Now there's also an AR app that helps me manage my arachnophobia. I am an immigrant. In the past 5 years I had to do so many paperwork that it could fill a little closet. Luckily, compared to my peers I didn't have to print all of those PDFs out. I was able to sign them from my MacBook in Preview and using markup feature on my iPad. I am also a software developer. I value and appreciate Unix core utils. Turns out my Mac is a certified Unix and I am able to automate a lot of things in my day-to-day job using small Unix tools that are imprinted into my fingers. All that while looking at _magnificent_ 4k monitor that delivers 100% of Adobe's gamut and doesn't make my eyes with weird font issues. I love travelling into Australian Outback with my wife and we take some magnificent photos there with our iPhones without having to carry a lot of heavy equipment. We then are able to send this photos to each other whilst being completely off-the-grid, some hundreds of KM from nearest cell tower using AirDrop. It takes milliseconds. On the long drives my daughter can pick up here iPad and just watch some cartoons. iPad connects to the internet using my iPhone automatically when there's reception and Infuse has stuff that it downloaded form my Emby installation when there's none. My podcasts are downloaded automatically without my intervention and put onto my watch. When I go for my walks I don't have to carry my phone. My watch and headphones suffice. When I browse the web using my phone or my mac I don't see any advertisements and popups and auto-playing videos. Safari on my phone and mac is capable of having extensions and has APIs for adblocking applications. 1Blocker takes a good care of me when it comes to ads. My phone provides me with tools to take care of my digital well-being. It lets me know which applications I used the most and when and lets me to block those applications for certain periods of time if I find an unhealthy habit. I write my notes on my iPad. I don't need to cut trees anymore and it is more comfortable. With Notability I can zoom and cut my handwritten nodes and move them around and do all sorts of stuff I can't with regular pen and paper. I recently bought an iPad for my Mom and added her into my Apple One subscription. Now she's in Russia and I'm in Australia and she is able to listen to her beloved old soviet decedent music virtually for free without needing to download it anywhere. I am calm and confident that she's safe using this device and probably of her getting scammed is quite a bit lower compare to any other device. I'm looking forward to what other quality of life improvements Tim Cook's vision will bring to my life. I feel privileged that I have access to this magnificent technology and thankful for that.
- flohofwoe 5y ago
  Would that be Apple's Tim or Epic's Tim? ;)
- ribit 5y ago
  Yes, if by ideological reasons you mean „moneyz“.
  - gameswithgo 5y ago
    It is easy to be cynical because cynical is usually correct but that really isn’t Sweeny’s motivation here.
    - odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
      https://9to5mac.com/2020/08/21/epic-games-asked-for-special-fortnite-deal-before-protesting-app-store-apple-legal-filing-reveals/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/08/21/epic-games-asked-for-special-... I really don't understand how people still think it is Sweeny's ideology playing here, when he literally emailed Apple for an exception for Epic alone.
- smachiz 5y ago
  No he isn't. If he was, he'd go after Xbox and PS stores as well which also take 30%. But they make up like 70% of the revenue for Fortnite, so they haven't picked that fight. They went after the bottom 20% of their revenue. That is exactly a calculated business fight.
- ncr100 5y ago
  Him being rich and powerful lord of the Metaverse idealogy, IMO.
Aerroon 5y ago
I don't think that quote is quite as apt though. Epic seems to be in far less trouble than Apple. Epic might not have gained what they wanted, but a lot of it is a giant like of evidence about Apple for other countries and cases.
- dubcanada 5y ago
  How is the most wealthy company in the world in trouble? Epic made 5 billion last year most from a game that can easily be replaced and will eventually (they all eventually get replaced), Apple has 200 billion in cash just sitting there and makes 60 billion a year on average. They are not even close.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    This lawsuit will cost Apple way more than Epic. It might not hurt Apple that much as a percentage, but in absolute terms it will hurt them plenty. There is a reason they fight this so fervently.
    - xwdv 5y ago
      No, people wish it will hurt Apple way more, but it won’t. It won’t even make a dent in their universe.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - Razengan 5y ago
        Not people. Not users. Just the greedy companies and developers who wish that they could prey upon a billion users and fleece them with impunity without Apple getting in the way. And they will do their darnedest to conceal their true motives. “BUT WE CARE!” they will howl, while salivating with fork and knife in grubby hands.
    - MikeDelta 5y ago
      Indeed, the future of their business model is at stake. If Epic succeeds and many more try to circumvent paying 30% to Apple, then they will feel it.
vimy 5y ago
I don’t think Epic intended to win the lawsuit. It’s part of a broader strategy to force lawmakers to change app store rules.
- golemotron 5y ago
  The company that buys the remains of Epic can carry on with the lawsuit, I guess.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    Epic isn't going anywhere, the appstore wasn't a very significant part of their income. They wouldn't have picked this fight if they couldn't afford it.
    - bigbizisverywyz 5y ago
      >the appstore wasn't a very significant part of their income. So why did they even pick the fight?
      - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
        because if they won the fight it could have become a significant source of income?
      - vimy 5y ago
        This is about the future of the metaverse. Longread: https://medium.com/gamemakers/the-economy-of-the-metaverse-interview-with-epic-ceo-tim-sweeney-1822eed01ddf https://medium.com/gamemakers/the-economy-of-the-metaverse-i...
      - doikor 5y ago
        To make more money. More is more even if it is not making their most important thing make more money. Just like Apple has not killed most of their desktop offering just because they are not a very significant part of their income. Also a big chunk of it is probably just Tim Sweeneys personal opinions (he owns over 50% epic by himself so what he says happens pretty much). Basically he is rather strongly (and very openly) against any walled garden platforms.
ribit 5y ago
Epic didn’t promise that they will comply. Actually, Epic made it very clear that they do not want to comply. You can’t say „sure I’m ok with it“ while simultaneously filing an legal appeal on a court verdict forcing you to comply.
- nulbyte 5y ago
  > You can’t say „sure I’m ok with it“ while simultaneously filing an legal appeal They didn't say that. They said they will comply, not that they should comply. Complying doesn't preclude continuing a lawsuit because they believe they should not have to comply.
madeofpalk 5y ago
> Epic promises they will comply Did i miss something where they actually said that? My understanding is that in the past Sweeney's statements have consistently said they will not exclusively offer Apple's IAP which indicates they promise to not comply with the rules.
- jasode 5y ago
  >>> Epic promises they will comply >Did i miss something where they actually said that? In this thread's Fireball blogpost is a link to Tim Sweeney's tweet of an email screenshot to Apple's Phil Schiller stating his "promise": >Sep 16, 2021 at 5:01 PM; Subject: Fortnite and the App Store; To: Phil Schiller >[..] Epic promises that it will adhere to Apple’s guidelines whenever and wherever we release products on Apple platforms.[...]
  - abduhl 5y ago
    Tim Sweeney and Epic planned and executed an entire campaign (hilariously even given a secret code name as if Epic was either some super hero or villain) that was predicated on knowingly breaching a contract (read: a promise). Then they sued. Then they lost. Now they have a new promise? Their promises are worth less than dogshit. Apple apparently isn’t in the market for dogshit.
  - madeofpalk 5y ago
    Continue reading. The next paragraph in the email from Sweeney: > Whether Epic chooses to bring Fortnite back to iOS consumers depends on whether and where Apple updates its guidelines to provide for a level playing field between Apple In-App Purchase and other methods of payment. Epic said "if you update your terms to something we would like to follow, we promise to follow them".
simonh 5y ago
Epic is very clearly and definitely not agreeing to follow the App Store rules. They are appealing the judgement precisely because they do not agree with the App Store rules. Trying to overturn them is not agreeing to them. Epic are agreeing to comply with the court order, for now, but they are not agreeing to the rules. This is not semantics, Apple's offer was that if Epic dropped he suit, they would be let back in. Epic knows this perfectly well.
- gpm 5y ago
  They are very clearly agreeing to follow the app store rules. They're also trying to force them to change, but they are very clearly agreeing to follow whatever the rules are at all times. The rules do not include "you cannot sue us" or "you cannot appeal decisions". If apple tried to put those in the rules, the court would quickly remove them from the rules, but also Apple did not, and almost certainly will not even attempt to put them in the rules.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - simonh 5y ago
    It’s been perfectly clear all along, to anyone closely following the case and Apples deposition and legal statements exactly what Apples position was. Their conditions for letting Fortnite back in was Epic agreeing to drop the case and follow the rules. This has never changed.
    - elpool2 5y ago
      The statement Apple made that most people are referring to was "As we've said all along, we would welcome Epic's return to the App Store if they agree to play by the same rules as everyone else." so it doesn't seem like "drop the case" was a condition, at least according to this one statement.
      - simonh 5y ago
Terretta 5y ago
> EDIT reply to some comments saying Epic didn't make a "promise" to comply with Apple's rules… There is no such promise. There’s a pile of “if” Apple ignores the rulings and does what Epic wanted in the first place, including rewriting the rules(!), then Epic will comply with the rules rewritten Epic’s way: ”Whether Epic chooses to bring Fortnite back to iOS consumers depends on whether and where Apple updates its guidelines to provide for a level playing field between Apple In-App Purchase and other methods of payment.”
- comex 5y ago
  Read the letter again. Epic is saying that Apple changes the rules, it will resubmit Fortnite for iOS; if not, it will only resubmit Fortnite for Mac and use the account to internally test Fortnite for iOS; either way, it will follow the rules for what it does submit.
chrisfinazzo 5y ago
Not to put too fine a point on it, but for all practical purposes Apple can't boot Facebook or Google from the App Store, regardless of what they do. Tim Cook's head would end up on the chopping block if several billion users suddently left iOS because FB, Instagram and the rest weren't available. With Google, the userbase is potentially even bigger and some of what they do really is fundamental to most people's experience of the web. Users would certainly revolt. The same might be true of Fortnite, but despite the fact that we now know most App Store revenue comes from games, Epic is still one of many, regardless of how popular their titles are.
- vxNsr 5y ago
  Additionally epic wants to stop paying apple, so essentially it’s 0 lost revenue either way.
- cptskippy 5y ago
  > The same might be true of Fortnite It would seem that Fortnite's demographic is preteen kids. Are they playing Fortnite on their parent's device or one they own? If it's the later then Apple could be fostering a lifelong mistrust or dislike for their platform. If it's the former then Parents might just install another App for them and that's the end of Fortnite. I guess it comes down to how many people are willing to jump ship for Fortnite. I have a feeling Apple probably already knows the answer since Fortnite hasn't been in the App store for some time.
  - withinboredom 5y ago
    I think many of them (including me) were waiting for this to play out. I can remember walking into a cell phone store years and years ago to look around. I remember overhearing this: Kid: I really like this phone. Dad: That’s a Windows Phone, you don’t want that. It doesn’t have that many apps. You want an Android because you get all the apps out there. I can see a similar argument for Android vs. Apple now. “Get Android, you’ll get all the apps. With Apple, you only get Apple approved apps, which includes malware, but not that game you like to play, what’s it called? Fortnight?”
edoceo 5y ago
That quote is by Omar Little in the TV show The Wire. That show was amazing. The actor (Michael?) recently died :(
- arbitrage 5y ago
  His name was Michael Kenneth Williams, and he was in many shows. Boardwalk Empire The Wire Community Trapped in the Closet The Spoils Before Dying Hap and Leonard When We Rise When They See Us Lovecraft Country
OmarComin 5y ago
> you come at the King, you best not miss "it's all in the game [App Store ecosystem's contractual specifications] yo"
MisterBastahrd 5y ago
The scenarios couldn't be more different. To Facebook and Google, you are the product. They are trying to get at your data to sell to third parties. To Epic, Fortnite is the product. They are trying to sell things to their users via their app.
criddell 5y ago
> Epic promises they will comply They also made that promise when they opened their developer account. Do you think they really mean it this time?
- spzb 5y ago
  It’s a pinky promise this time. No backsies.
passivate 5y ago
>Big difference is that Epic rolled the dice by filing a lawsuit about Apple's unfair rules and because they thought there was enough anti-Apple sentiment that they'd get a sympathetic judgement in their favor. I think they're doing a great service (at their cost) to raise the issue time and time again. After Apple, I think Steam and other platforms are next. Pretty much all developers who make money on the app store agree with Epic on the fact that Apple should not engage in a 30% money-grab.
gerash 5y ago
In the Google case, it wasn't using the dev license to develop apps for the general public or "end-users". Basically iOS is a very popular yet closed hardware and software platform and if others want to run anything on them it needs to go through Apple's approval process which might be both good and bad depending on your perspective.

by jasode 5y ago

gameswithgo 5y ago

Tim is in the fight for idealogical reasons, not calculated business ones.

PedroBatista 5y ago
And thank "God" for people like him[1]. Life is unbearable under Tim Cook's "vision", the greed, arrogance and pettiness is at an all-time high, and it's not like it was low before.. [1] Also, nothing is black and white, of course Tim/Epic were looking to get more money from what their customers paid.
- rawbot 5y ago
  This isn't Tim Cook's vision. The closed nature of the App Store is Steve Jobs' legacy. Cook just refuses to kill the Golden Goose. I'm not a fan of Epic, but I hope Apple loses and we get some sort of alternate way to load applications on iOS devices.
  - OrvalWintermute 5y ago
    I actually think this is not the golden goose. 30% is enough to ensure that competitors arise, competitors outcompete them on everything plus price. If Appstore pricing was a neglible amount it would significantly impact the interest of competitors to enter the market. Obligatory Marvel Reference https://youtu.be/Bj6yMYaQPrw?t=75 https://youtu.be/Bj6yMYaQPrw?t=75
- p2t2p 5y ago
  My life under Tim Cook's "vision" is pretty sweet when it comes to electronic devices. With a tap of a button I fill my house with lossless quality of music that is playing on astonishingly capable speakers. Those speakers also answer my questions and run automations on my phone which I can create in a very nice and user-friendly interface. I'm currently watching an episode of a TV Series that is playing from my NAS on my mac through the only player on my Mac (I tried mpv, IINA and VLC) that is capable of playing 8k MKVs without hiccups - Infuse. That player is a port from an iPad app btw. When I finished with my work I say "Hey, Siri, I'm done" and leave the room. Monitor's lightbar, other lights turns off. When it is getting dark my chosen lights turn on automatically, provided somebody's home. My printer doesn't consume electricity in the night because HomeKit automatically turns it off in the evening and turns it on in the morning. I don't need to worry about my daughter putting her fingers into shredder because it is always turned off. When I need it, I say "Hey Siri, turn on shredder". The shredder turns on and it then automatically turns off after 90 seconds. When I get in my car I have a very nice screen on the dashboard that most of the time is capable of guessing where I'm about to go and suggests one-tap navigation. And the music starts playing from where I left off. My photos are downloaded on several devices and backed up in the cloud. The albums are shared with my Mom who is very happy every time when I upload new photos of here granddaughter. My private drm-free music collection is also uploaded to the cloud and synchronised to every device I've got. I can say "Hey Siri, facetime Mom" and I'll see my mother's face over the distance of 17000km in a magnificent quality. My books are synchronised and downloaded across all my devices as well and whenever I feel like reading one, it's right here. None of those books were bought from Apple btw, they are DRM-free. The other day I was wondering if I should buy an iMac for my wife - would it fit in the kitchen or not? Well, there's AR technology on my phone that had no troubles presenting me how it would sit on the counter. Now there's also an AR app that helps me manage my arachnophobia. I am an immigrant. In the past 5 years I had to do so many paperwork that it could fill a little closet. Luckily, compared to my peers I didn't have to print all of those PDFs out. I was able to sign them from my MacBook in Preview and using markup feature on my iPad. I am also a software developer. I value and appreciate Unix core utils. Turns out my Mac is a certified Unix and I am able to automate a lot of things in my day-to-day job using small Unix tools that are imprinted into my fingers. All that while looking at _magnificent_ 4k monitor that delivers 100% of Adobe's gamut and doesn't make my eyes with weird font issues. I love travelling into Australian Outback with my wife and we take some magnificent photos there with our iPhones without having to carry a lot of heavy equipment. We then are able to send this photos to each other whilst being completely off-the-grid, some hundreds of KM from nearest cell tower using AirDrop. It takes milliseconds. On the long drives my daughter can pick up here iPad and just watch some cartoons. iPad connects to the internet using my iPhone automatically when there's reception and Infuse has stuff that it downloaded form my Emby installation when there's none. My podcasts are downloaded automatically without my intervention and put onto my watch. When I go for my walks I don't have to carry my phone. My watch and headphones suffice. When I browse the web using my phone or my mac I don't see any advertisements and popups and auto-playing videos. Safari on my phone and mac is capable of having extensions and has APIs for adblocking applications. 1Blocker takes a good care of me when it comes to ads. My phone provides me with tools to take care of my digital well-being. It lets me know which applications I used the most and when and lets me to block those applications for certain periods of time if I find an unhealthy habit. I write my notes on my iPad. I don't need to cut trees anymore and it is more comfortable. With Notability I can zoom and cut my handwritten nodes and move them around and do all sorts of stuff I can't with regular pen and paper. I recently bought an iPad for my Mom and added her into my Apple One subscription. Now she's in Russia and I'm in Australia and she is able to listen to her beloved old soviet decedent music virtually for free without needing to download it anywhere. I am calm and confident that she's safe using this device and probably of her getting scammed is quite a bit lower compare to any other device. I'm looking forward to what other quality of life improvements Tim Cook's vision will bring to my life. I feel privileged that I have access to this magnificent technology and thankful for that.
flohofwoe 5y ago
Would that be Apple's Tim or Epic's Tim? ;)
ribit 5y ago
Yes, if by ideological reasons you mean „moneyz“.
- gameswithgo 5y ago
  It is easy to be cynical because cynical is usually correct but that really isn’t Sweeny’s motivation here.
  - odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
    https://9to5mac.com/2020/08/21/epic-games-asked-for-special-fortnite-deal-before-protesting-app-store-apple-legal-filing-reveals/ https://9to5mac.com/2020/08/21/epic-games-asked-for-special-... I really don't understand how people still think it is Sweeny's ideology playing here, when he literally emailed Apple for an exception for Epic alone.
smachiz 5y ago
No he isn't. If he was, he'd go after Xbox and PS stores as well which also take 30%. But they make up like 70% of the revenue for Fortnite, so they haven't picked that fight. They went after the bottom 20% of their revenue. That is exactly a calculated business fight.
ncr100 5y ago
Him being rich and powerful lord of the Metaverse idealogy, IMO.

Aerroon 5y ago

I don't think that quote is quite as apt though. Epic seems to be in far less trouble than Apple. Epic might not have gained what they wanted, but a lot of it is a giant like of evidence about Apple for other countries and cases.

dubcanada 5y ago
How is the most wealthy company in the world in trouble? Epic made 5 billion last year most from a game that can easily be replaced and will eventually (they all eventually get replaced), Apple has 200 billion in cash just sitting there and makes 60 billion a year on average. They are not even close.
- Jensson 5y ago
  This lawsuit will cost Apple way more than Epic. It might not hurt Apple that much as a percentage, but in absolute terms it will hurt them plenty. There is a reason they fight this so fervently.
  - xwdv 5y ago
    No, people wish it will hurt Apple way more, but it won’t. It won’t even make a dent in their universe.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - Razengan 5y ago
      Not people. Not users. Just the greedy companies and developers who wish that they could prey upon a billion users and fleece them with impunity without Apple getting in the way. And they will do their darnedest to conceal their true motives. “BUT WE CARE!” they will howl, while salivating with fork and knife in grubby hands.
  - MikeDelta 5y ago
    Indeed, the future of their business model is at stake. If Epic succeeds and many more try to circumvent paying 30% to Apple, then they will feel it.

vimy 5y ago

I don’t think Epic intended to win the lawsuit. It’s part of a broader strategy to force lawmakers to change app store rules.

golemotron 5y ago
The company that buys the remains of Epic can carry on with the lawsuit, I guess.
- Jensson 5y ago
  Epic isn't going anywhere, the appstore wasn't a very significant part of their income. They wouldn't have picked this fight if they couldn't afford it.
  - bigbizisverywyz 5y ago
    >the appstore wasn't a very significant part of their income. So why did they even pick the fight?
    - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
      because if they won the fight it could have become a significant source of income?
    - vimy 5y ago
      This is about the future of the metaverse. Longread: https://medium.com/gamemakers/the-economy-of-the-metaverse-interview-with-epic-ceo-tim-sweeney-1822eed01ddf https://medium.com/gamemakers/the-economy-of-the-metaverse-i...
    - doikor 5y ago
      To make more money. More is more even if it is not making their most important thing make more money. Just like Apple has not killed most of their desktop offering just because they are not a very significant part of their income. Also a big chunk of it is probably just Tim Sweeneys personal opinions (he owns over 50% epic by himself so what he says happens pretty much). Basically he is rather strongly (and very openly) against any walled garden platforms.

ribit 5y ago

Epic didn’t promise that they will comply. Actually, Epic made it very clear that they do not want to comply. You can’t say „sure I’m ok with it“ while simultaneously filing an legal appeal on a court verdict forcing you to comply.

nulbyte 5y ago
> You can’t say „sure I’m ok with it“ while simultaneously filing an legal appeal They didn't say that. They said they will comply, not that they should comply. Complying doesn't preclude continuing a lawsuit because they believe they should not have to comply.

madeofpalk 5y ago

> Epic promises they will comply Did i miss something where they actually said that? My understanding is that in the past Sweeney's statements have consistently said they will not exclusively offer Apple's IAP which indicates they promise to not comply with the rules.

jasode 5y ago
>>> Epic promises they will comply >Did i miss something where they actually said that? In this thread's Fireball blogpost is a link to Tim Sweeney's tweet of an email screenshot to Apple's Phil Schiller stating his "promise": >Sep 16, 2021 at 5:01 PM; Subject: Fortnite and the App Store; To: Phil Schiller >[..] Epic promises that it will adhere to Apple’s guidelines whenever and wherever we release products on Apple platforms.[...]
- abduhl 5y ago
  Tim Sweeney and Epic planned and executed an entire campaign (hilariously even given a secret code name as if Epic was either some super hero or villain) that was predicated on knowingly breaching a contract (read: a promise). Then they sued. Then they lost. Now they have a new promise? Their promises are worth less than dogshit. Apple apparently isn’t in the market for dogshit.
- madeofpalk 5y ago
  Continue reading. The next paragraph in the email from Sweeney: > Whether Epic chooses to bring Fortnite back to iOS consumers depends on whether and where Apple updates its guidelines to provide for a level playing field between Apple In-App Purchase and other methods of payment. Epic said "if you update your terms to something we would like to follow, we promise to follow them".

simonh 5y ago

Epic is very clearly and definitely not agreeing to follow the App Store rules. They are appealing the judgement precisely because they do not agree with the App Store rules. Trying to overturn them is not agreeing to them. Epic are agreeing to comply with the court order, for now, but they are not agreeing to the rules. This is not semantics, Apple's offer was that if Epic dropped he suit, they would be let back in. Epic knows this perfectly well.

gpm 5y ago
They are very clearly agreeing to follow the app store rules. They're also trying to force them to change, but they are very clearly agreeing to follow whatever the rules are at all times. The rules do not include "you cannot sue us" or "you cannot appeal decisions". If apple tried to put those in the rules, the court would quickly remove them from the rules, but also Apple did not, and almost certainly will not even attempt to put them in the rules.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- simonh 5y ago
  It’s been perfectly clear all along, to anyone closely following the case and Apples deposition and legal statements exactly what Apples position was. Their conditions for letting Fortnite back in was Epic agreeing to drop the case and follow the rules. This has never changed.
  - elpool2 5y ago
    The statement Apple made that most people are referring to was "As we've said all along, we would welcome Epic's return to the App Store if they agree to play by the same rules as everyone else." so it doesn't seem like "drop the case" was a condition, at least according to this one statement.
    - simonh 5y ago

Terretta 5y ago

> EDIT reply to some comments saying Epic didn't make a "promise" to comply with Apple's rules… There is no such promise. There’s a pile of “if” Apple ignores the rulings and does what Epic wanted in the first place, including rewriting the rules(!), then Epic will comply with the rules rewritten Epic’s way: ”Whether Epic chooses to bring Fortnite back to iOS consumers depends on whether and where Apple updates its guidelines to provide for a level playing field between Apple In-App Purchase and other methods of payment.”

comex 5y ago
Read the letter again. Epic is saying that Apple changes the rules, it will resubmit Fortnite for iOS; if not, it will only resubmit Fortnite for Mac and use the account to internally test Fortnite for iOS; either way, it will follow the rules for what it does submit.

chrisfinazzo 5y ago

Not to put too fine a point on it, but for all practical purposes Apple can't boot Facebook or Google from the App Store, regardless of what they do. Tim Cook's head would end up on the chopping block if several billion users suddently left iOS because FB, Instagram and the rest weren't available. With Google, the userbase is potentially even bigger and some of what they do really is fundamental to most people's experience of the web. Users would certainly revolt. The same might be true of Fortnite, but despite the fact that we now know most App Store revenue comes from games, Epic is still one of many, regardless of how popular their titles are.

vxNsr 5y ago
Additionally epic wants to stop paying apple, so essentially it’s 0 lost revenue either way.
cptskippy 5y ago
> The same might be true of Fortnite It would seem that Fortnite's demographic is preteen kids. Are they playing Fortnite on their parent's device or one they own? If it's the later then Apple could be fostering a lifelong mistrust or dislike for their platform. If it's the former then Parents might just install another App for them and that's the end of Fortnite. I guess it comes down to how many people are willing to jump ship for Fortnite. I have a feeling Apple probably already knows the answer since Fortnite hasn't been in the App store for some time.
- withinboredom 5y ago
  I think many of them (including me) were waiting for this to play out. I can remember walking into a cell phone store years and years ago to look around. I remember overhearing this: Kid: I really like this phone. Dad: That’s a Windows Phone, you don’t want that. It doesn’t have that many apps. You want an Android because you get all the apps out there. I can see a similar argument for Android vs. Apple now. “Get Android, you’ll get all the apps. With Apple, you only get Apple approved apps, which includes malware, but not that game you like to play, what’s it called? Fortnight?”

edoceo 5y ago

That quote is by Omar Little in the TV show The Wire. That show was amazing. The actor (Michael?) recently died :(

arbitrage 5y ago
His name was Michael Kenneth Williams, and he was in many shows. Boardwalk Empire The Wire Community Trapped in the Closet The Spoils Before Dying Hap and Leonard When We Rise When They See Us Lovecraft Country

OmarComin 5y ago

> you come at the King, you best not miss "it's all in the game [App Store ecosystem's contractual specifications] yo"

MisterBastahrd 5y ago

The scenarios couldn't be more different. To Facebook and Google, you are the product. They are trying to get at your data to sell to third parties. To Epic, Fortnite is the product. They are trying to sell things to their users via their app.

criddell 5y ago

> Epic promises they will comply They also made that promise when they opened their developer account. Do you think they really mean it this time?

spzb 5y ago
It’s a pinky promise this time. No backsies.

passivate 5y ago

>Big difference is that Epic rolled the dice by filing a lawsuit about Apple's unfair rules and because they thought there was enough anti-Apple sentiment that they'd get a sympathetic judgement in their favor. I think they're doing a great service (at their cost) to raise the issue time and time again. After Apple, I think Steam and other platforms are next. Pretty much all developers who make money on the app store agree with Epic on the fact that Apple should not engage in a 30% money-grab.

gerash 5y ago

In the Google case, it wasn't using the dev license to develop apps for the general public or "end-users". Basically iOS is a very popular yet closed hardware and software platform and if others want to run anything on them it needs to go through Apple's approval process which might be both good and bad depending on your perspective.