7 ms·

Apple can figure how to put USB-C on a phone, but perhaps does not because lightning's connector has preferable RF sensitivity profile. Not sure if it's measur

Apple can figure how to put USB-C on a phone, but perhaps does not because lightning's connector has preferable RF sensitivity profile. Not sure if it's measured as significant, but it's the sort of thing that RF engineering concerns itself with (preventing anything from detuning antennas or otherwise raising the noise floor).

toyg 5y ago
> but perhaps does not because lightning's connector has preferable RF sensitivity profile ... or because Lightning has a commercial "preferable profile" - it's another form of lock-in, and at the hardware level no less; such an extremely desirable feature, from a commercial perspective, is very, very hard to give up. It would open the door to a world where phone accessories are effectively universal, and surely we can't have that.
southerntofu 5y ago
> perhaps does not because lightning's connector has preferable RF sensitivity profile Given that literally every other smartphone on the market has a USB-C port, i'd say this is not the reason why Apple used a non-standard connector, failing (voluntarily) to comply with European interoperability laws/standards.
- aardvarkr 5y ago
  FYI the interpretability standards passed recently were for the charging block. Every device has to charge from a usb c port so that’s why Apple switched.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    Apple switched? Switched what? I'm not up to date :)
    - toyg 5y ago
      Apple are slowly migrating to solutions that feature USB-C at some level, even if they keep Lightning on the phone itself. That's because EU authorities have signalled that they know Apple are taking the mickey, and will continue making more stringent rules until Apple play ball. E.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58665809 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58665809
    - aardvarkr 5y ago
      They started giving you a USB C to lightning cable instead of the usual USB A
- jjtheblunt 5y ago
  Lightning was shipped before USB-C was standardized, if I recall. Sep 2012 for lightning shipped, and USB-C not ratified as a standard until Aug 2014.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    Micro-USB was the standard back then. All phone manufacturers had custom proprietary (though most jack-based) connectors, but due to european regulations they all switched to micro-USB to comply with standards... all, except Apple of course who went another way. Apple was not exactly unaware of these developments, as they have repeatedly signed the memorandums of understanding surrounding charger interoperability, according to wikipedia.
    - danudey 5y ago
      For what it's worth, Lightning is dramatically better than Micro-USB ever was, and IMHO it's still better than USB-C in terms of form factor (it's thinner, allowing for thinner ports, so thinner devices) but not compatibility (I have to have a bunch of C-to-lightning cables and a bunch of C-to-C cables).
qwerty456127 5y ago
In itself the Lightning connector apparently is better than USB-C but just look at the market of USB-C (and also USB-A which can be connected to USB-C easily) devices, compare it to that of Lightning and it becomes obvious which is better for you and why does Apple want the other.
- jjtheblunt 5y ago
  It makes me wonder if everything would be lightning connectors if Apple had allowed others to use it without royalties.
  - GuB-42 5y ago
    I think one reason why lightning works great is because it is made by Apple. Apple is expensive, and therefore, it can afford to spend the couple of extra cents needed to manufacture a good connector and install it properly. USB has to go on devices where the port already represent a sizable fraction of the cost, and there is a race to the bottom to whoever will produce the least expensive parts, and of course, it is shit. If lightning was standard, we would probably see a lot more failures, simply because not everyone has the same quality requirements as Apple. Of course, USB doesn't have te be terrible, but when you compare USB to lightning, you compare a mixed bag of good and bad parts to only good parts. To be fair, you should only compare USB implementations from reputable, expensive brands against lightning.
    - qwerty456127 5y ago
      > USB has to go on devices where the port already represent a sizable fraction of the cost, and there is a race to the bottom In this context USB-C has failed hilariously, given how much do reliable full-featured USB4 cables cost.
arvinsim 5y ago
Let's not kid ourselves. Apple earns money from Lightning royalties.
- jjtheblunt 5y ago
  to your point, Apple also earns money from a 2+ year head start on shipping thin-connector phones, shipped in Sep 2012 whereas usb-c had only reached a stable design decision in Aug 2014, so would wait even longer to ship.
  - oynqr 5y ago
    Come on, micro usb isn't that thick either
    - frosted-flakes 5y ago
      USB-C is actually slightly thicker than micro-USB.
    - PostThisTooFast 5y ago
      Micro-USB is also execrable junk.
    - rualca 5y ago
      USB-C is about 8.4*3.6 mm² whereas USB micro-A is 6.85*1.8mm². The difference might not be very noticeable, but USB-C is has around 3 times the area of USB micro-A.
krageon 5y ago
Apple hates you, the person that buys their stuff. It hates you so much they will go to any lengths to force you to buy more.
dreamcompiler 5y ago
And yet Samsung and Google and LG all figured it out. Maybe they have better RF engineers than Apple?
- jjtheblunt 5y ago
  Didn't Lightning ship (Sep 2012) before usb-c was standardized (Aug 2014)? So no idea about RF engineer comparisons, but Apple seems to have stopped waiting for consensus on what USB-C would be, in wanting to ship something thin before Samsung and Google and LG could even design something thin, by almost 2 years.
jjtheblunt 5y ago
Sep 2012: lightning shipped on iPhones Aug 2014: usb-c standard written, so no devices yet. this ordering keeps being overlooked in comments.
- frosted-flakes 5y ago
  USB-C has been standard on phones for 5 years now, yet new iPhones still have proprietary ports. Why?
  - jjtheblunt 5y ago
    I don't know the answer either. I wonder if some research suggests a port change would stall phone upgrades among enough users of earlier models, and that phone upgrades are lucrative.

toyg 5y ago

> but perhaps does not because lightning's connector has preferable RF sensitivity profile ... or because Lightning has a commercial "preferable profile" - it's another form of lock-in, and at the hardware level no less; such an extremely desirable feature, from a commercial perspective, is very, very hard to give up. It would open the door to a world where phone accessories are effectively universal, and surely we can't have that.

southerntofu 5y ago

> perhaps does not because lightning's connector has preferable RF sensitivity profile Given that literally every other smartphone on the market has a USB-C port, i'd say this is not the reason why Apple used a non-standard connector, failing (voluntarily) to comply with European interoperability laws/standards.

aardvarkr 5y ago
FYI the interpretability standards passed recently were for the charging block. Every device has to charge from a usb c port so that’s why Apple switched.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  Apple switched? Switched what? I'm not up to date :)
  - toyg 5y ago
    Apple are slowly migrating to solutions that feature USB-C at some level, even if they keep Lightning on the phone itself. That's because EU authorities have signalled that they know Apple are taking the mickey, and will continue making more stringent rules until Apple play ball. E.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58665809 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58665809
  - aardvarkr 5y ago
    They started giving you a USB C to lightning cable instead of the usual USB A
jjtheblunt 5y ago
Lightning was shipped before USB-C was standardized, if I recall. Sep 2012 for lightning shipped, and USB-C not ratified as a standard until Aug 2014.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  Micro-USB was the standard back then. All phone manufacturers had custom proprietary (though most jack-based) connectors, but due to european regulations they all switched to micro-USB to comply with standards... all, except Apple of course who went another way. Apple was not exactly unaware of these developments, as they have repeatedly signed the memorandums of understanding surrounding charger interoperability, according to wikipedia.
  - danudey 5y ago
    For what it's worth, Lightning is dramatically better than Micro-USB ever was, and IMHO it's still better than USB-C in terms of form factor (it's thinner, allowing for thinner ports, so thinner devices) but not compatibility (I have to have a bunch of C-to-lightning cables and a bunch of C-to-C cables).

qwerty456127 5y ago

In itself the Lightning connector apparently is better than USB-C but just look at the market of USB-C (and also USB-A which can be connected to USB-C easily) devices, compare it to that of Lightning and it becomes obvious which is better for you and why does Apple want the other.

jjtheblunt 5y ago
It makes me wonder if everything would be lightning connectors if Apple had allowed others to use it without royalties.
- GuB-42 5y ago
  I think one reason why lightning works great is because it is made by Apple. Apple is expensive, and therefore, it can afford to spend the couple of extra cents needed to manufacture a good connector and install it properly. USB has to go on devices where the port already represent a sizable fraction of the cost, and there is a race to the bottom to whoever will produce the least expensive parts, and of course, it is shit. If lightning was standard, we would probably see a lot more failures, simply because not everyone has the same quality requirements as Apple. Of course, USB doesn't have te be terrible, but when you compare USB to lightning, you compare a mixed bag of good and bad parts to only good parts. To be fair, you should only compare USB implementations from reputable, expensive brands against lightning.
  - qwerty456127 5y ago
    > USB has to go on devices where the port already represent a sizable fraction of the cost, and there is a race to the bottom In this context USB-C has failed hilariously, given how much do reliable full-featured USB4 cables cost.

arvinsim 5y ago

Let's not kid ourselves. Apple earns money from Lightning royalties.

jjtheblunt 5y ago
to your point, Apple also earns money from a 2+ year head start on shipping thin-connector phones, shipped in Sep 2012 whereas usb-c had only reached a stable design decision in Aug 2014, so would wait even longer to ship.
- oynqr 5y ago
  Come on, micro usb isn't that thick either
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    USB-C is actually slightly thicker than micro-USB.
  - PostThisTooFast 5y ago
    Micro-USB is also execrable junk.
  - rualca 5y ago
    USB-C is about 8.4*3.6 mm² whereas USB micro-A is 6.85*1.8mm². The difference might not be very noticeable, but USB-C is has around 3 times the area of USB micro-A.

krageon 5y ago

Apple hates you, the person that buys their stuff. It hates you so much they will go to any lengths to force you to buy more.

dreamcompiler 5y ago

And yet Samsung and Google and LG all figured it out. Maybe they have better RF engineers than Apple?

jjtheblunt 5y ago
Didn't Lightning ship (Sep 2012) before usb-c was standardized (Aug 2014)? So no idea about RF engineer comparisons, but Apple seems to have stopped waiting for consensus on what USB-C would be, in wanting to ship something thin before Samsung and Google and LG could even design something thin, by almost 2 years.

jjtheblunt 5y ago

Sep 2012: lightning shipped on iPhones Aug 2014: usb-c standard written, so no devices yet. this ordering keeps being overlooked in comments.

frosted-flakes 5y ago
USB-C has been standard on phones for 5 years now, yet new iPhones still have proprietary ports. Why?
- jjtheblunt 5y ago
  I don't know the answer either. I wonder if some research suggests a port change would stall phone upgrades among enough users of earlier models, and that phone upgrades are lucrative.