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And after going "all USB-C, all the time" on their laptops Apple still can't figure out how to put USB-C on a phone. At some point you have to conclude Apple i

And after going "all USB-C, all the time" on their laptops Apple still can't figure out how to put USB-C on a phone. At some point you have to conclude Apple is fucking with us all on purpose, just because they can.

elromulous 5y ago
+1 Also this meme: https://youtu.be/-XSC_UG5_kU https://youtu.be/-XSC_UG5_kU
Hackbraten 5y ago
Changing a connector is not trivial if you have hundreds of millions of customers and a massive ecosystem of third-party vendors, each with their own roadmap. Of course, Apple could pull it off if they really wanted. They’ve done it it with iPads. But please don’t frame it as customer trolling. We’re better than that here.
- yellowapple 5y ago
  > Changing a connector is not trivial if you have hundreds of millions of customers and a massive ecosystem of third-party vendors, each with their own roadmap. And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning), but so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that for Android devices (specifically: migrating from USB micro-B to USB C).
  - masklinn 5y ago
    > And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning) That’s the point though is it not? Apple was just out of a connector switch, which required users to throw out all their old accessories and get new ones. They were not going to do that again within just a few years. > so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that for Android devices (specifically: migrating from USB micro-B to USB C). Historically, Android had nowhere near the accessories ecosystem of Apple. I believe that is why Apple is starting the switchover to USB-C, with the new iPad using USB-C: * the dock connector lived for about 10 years, we’re approaching the 10th year of Lightning, that’s a pretty good lifecycle for a connector * the universality of USB-C amongst Android manufacturers means there now is a large ecosystem of accessories and Apple won’t have to rebuild their ecosystem from scratch I wouldn’t be surprised if the ipad was basically a warning shot, and Apple switched the rest of their mobile devices over to USB-C with the 2022 releases.
    - 542354234235 5y ago
      >which required users to throw out all their old accessories and get new ones. Not if you migrate to the standard that every other device uses. Isn’t that the exact advantage of a universal standard?
      - Hackbraten 5y ago
        USB type C didn’t exist back then, while USB 2.0 type micro B didn’t offer the required bandwidth.
    - frosted-flakes 5y ago
      What accessories? A charging cable or headphone adapter? Ship them with the phone. There, done. In fact, Apple used to include both, but not USB-C.
  - Hackbraten 5y ago
    > And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning) I feel that only confirms my point. The switch happened ten years ago, yet many people are still being mad at Apple today over it. > but so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that I think I’m failing to see your point. None of those vendors has any amount of control over the USB accessory ecosystem, or do they?
    - yellowapple 5y ago
      > I feel that only confirms my point. The switch happened ten years ago, yet many people are still being mad at Apple today over it. It disproves your point from multiple directions: 1. It demonstrates that Apple has no qualms about abandoning proprietary connectors and leaving an entire connector ecosystem stranded overnight. 2. It demonstrates that said connector ecosystem has no qualms about adapting to a new proprietary connector - let alone a standardized one. And no, I know of precisely zero people upset about switching away from the iPod connector. The only thing about which anyone is upset about is the fact that Apple chose a different proprietary connector instead of using that opportunity to standardize. > I think I’m failing to see your point. None of those vendors has any amount of control over the USB accessory ecosystem, or do they? The bigger players absolutely do manufacture their own accessories, but that's secondary to my point: that the accessory market readily adapted to phone manufacturers switching connectors on its own. Apple, if anything, would have an easier time for the exact reason you indicate: Apple has control over the Apple accessory ecosystem, and can use that control to put additional pressure on accessory makers.
- hnbad 5y ago
  > We’re better than that here. What do people think they're saying by saying this? No, this has literally happened here by one of "us" so "we" are clearly not better than this. Heck, "we" have done and are continuously doing far worse than this.
  - Hackbraten 5y ago
    In case it’s not entirely clear: I was referring to HN guidelines. Accusing others of acting in bad faith is never helpful. I will continue to remind others of the rules, no matter how often they’ve been broken in the past.
    - dreamcompiler 5y ago
      Accusing people of acting in bad faith is impolite. Accusing companies of acting in bad faith when there is ample evidence of their wrongdoing is one's duty as a consumer.
      - Hackbraten 5y ago
        Ample evidence for Apple’s wrongdoing? Yes. Ample evidence for “Apple […] fucking with us all on purpose, just because they can?” Please elaborate.
    - hnbad 5y ago
      Cool. Yet this behavior (and worse) is widespread and not being punished by moderators except for the most blatantly obnoxious cases. Guidelines are only relevant to the extent that they are enforced, otherwise they're just a wish list, not a code of conduct. Speaking of good faith, a good faith reading of their comment would be that they think Apple is intentionally maintaining a non-standard connector for their smartphone range despite knowing that switching to USB-C would be beneficial to their users. Alleging that Apple acts in bad faith hardly seems like a violation of HN guidelines. If anything, the claim that they put the needs of the users first would seem the preposterous one as one would expect them to be beholden to their shareholders (and thus profit) above all, not their customers, and there are plenty of reasons why maintaining their own connector might be more profitable.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  Before USB-C, the universal, international standard was micro-USB and every phone manufacturer (at least in Europe) was bound by law to implement it. Apple has changed its connectors since socket interoperability became effective and they could have adopted the standard. They just purposefully ignored the consumer-respecting standards in order to keep their 40$-connector business flowing. According to European regulations, Apple's actions are strictly illegal, but if any law enforcement actually cared to protect people from wealthy corporations, we probably wouldn't have any climate change, tax evasion, planned obsolescence, science-denial smoking ads, corporate land grabs, companies stealing water supplies from local populations... As always, laws that protect the weak from the powerful are betrayed, while laws that protect the powerful from the weak are strongly enforced.
  - himinlomax 5y ago
    Let's be charitable here, the lightning connector appears to be more durable than USB-C, at least on the device side. There's no protrusion, whereas in USB-C the contacts are on a very thin prong that çan be damaged if something small enough manages to get inside the connector.
    - The_Colonel 5y ago
      There's a difference between charitable and naive. I doubt the USB-C durability is a large scale problem. I follow smartphone world quite closely and have never heard/read about USB-C issues.
      - rualca 5y ago
        > I follow smartphone world quite closely and have never heard/read about USB-C issues. This isn't an effective point as the "smartphone world" is plagued by ephemeral devices which are either susceptible to programmed obsolescence or are caught in an upgrade treadmill due to a myriad of reasons (non-replaceable batteries failing, screen problems, camera issues, hardware failing due to wear, blocked software updates, fads, etc..)
    - 5y ago
jjtheblunt 5y ago
Apple can figure how to put USB-C on a phone, but perhaps does not because lightning's connector has preferable RF sensitivity profile. Not sure if it's measured as significant, but it's the sort of thing that RF engineering concerns itself with (preventing anything from detuning antennas or otherwise raising the noise floor).
- toyg 5y ago
  > but perhaps does not because lightning's connector has preferable RF sensitivity profile ... or because Lightning has a commercial "preferable profile" - it's another form of lock-in, and at the hardware level no less; such an extremely desirable feature, from a commercial perspective, is very, very hard to give up. It would open the door to a world where phone accessories are effectively universal, and surely we can't have that.
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > perhaps does not because lightning's connector has preferable RF sensitivity profile Given that literally every other smartphone on the market has a USB-C port, i'd say this is not the reason why Apple used a non-standard connector, failing (voluntarily) to comply with European interoperability laws/standards.
  - aardvarkr 5y ago
    FYI the interpretability standards passed recently were for the charging block. Every device has to charge from a usb c port so that’s why Apple switched.
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      Apple switched? Switched what? I'm not up to date :)
      - toyg 5y ago
        Apple are slowly migrating to solutions that feature USB-C at some level, even if they keep Lightning on the phone itself. That's because EU authorities have signalled that they know Apple are taking the mickey, and will continue making more stringent rules until Apple play ball. E.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58665809 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58665809
eecc 5y ago
IMHO it’s a shame that Lightning didn’t become the standard connector for USBC. There’s a reason for that: socket fragility. The socket is the most expensive part of the connection and when it breaks, it’s bad news. If you’re lucky and the bean counters didn’t overrule engineering over a microcent saving, the socket is on a daughter card otherwise you’re stuck with a one-port-down device, or an expensive motherboard replacement. Instead, the Lightning connector is as stupid as it gets, worst issue is pocket lint you can easily remove with a toothpick
- happyhardcore 5y ago
  I'd disagree with that one, with Lightning the pins are in the connector. I've broken my iPhone before trying to get lint out of the charging port and bending the pins by accident. USB C on the other hand has all the pins cable-side so there isn't anything to worry about ramming whatever you fancy into your phone or laptop since it's just a PCB with pads on rather than anything you can bend.
  - eecc 5y ago
    So you’re saying that PCB [1] and those pads are more solid than the low profile pins in Lightning? I guess only a mechanical engineer can settle the argument. Anyone? [1] https://www.mouser.sg/new/molex/molex-usb-type-c/ https://www.mouser.sg/new/molex/molex-usb-type-c/
    - jmgao 5y ago
      The receptacle housing generally prevents you from bending the connector tongue, and even if you manage to do it somehow, AFAIK it's almost never FR4 in the receptacle (although USB-C receptacles printed directly on 0.8mm PCBs work great!). It'll generally be some sort of injection molded thermoplastic that's fairly flexible, so even if you manage to bend it, it'll spring back. As for pins vs pads, you can make pads almost arbitrarily more durable by increasing the gold plating thickness, whereas it's really hard to make pins not bend.
  - bayindirh 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

elromulous 5y ago

+1 Also this meme: https://youtu.be/-XSC_UG5_kU https://youtu.be/-XSC_UG5_kU

Hackbraten 5y ago

Changing a connector is not trivial if you have hundreds of millions of customers and a massive ecosystem of third-party vendors, each with their own roadmap. Of course, Apple could pull it off if they really wanted. They’ve done it it with iPads. But please don’t frame it as customer trolling. We’re better than that here.

yellowapple 5y ago
> Changing a connector is not trivial if you have hundreds of millions of customers and a massive ecosystem of third-party vendors, each with their own roadmap. And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning), but so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that for Android devices (specifically: migrating from USB micro-B to USB C).
- masklinn 5y ago
  > And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning) That’s the point though is it not? Apple was just out of a connector switch, which required users to throw out all their old accessories and get new ones. They were not going to do that again within just a few years. > so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that for Android devices (specifically: migrating from USB micro-B to USB C). Historically, Android had nowhere near the accessories ecosystem of Apple. I believe that is why Apple is starting the switchover to USB-C, with the new iPad using USB-C: * the dock connector lived for about 10 years, we’re approaching the 10th year of Lightning, that’s a pretty good lifecycle for a connector * the universality of USB-C amongst Android manufacturers means there now is a large ecosystem of accessories and Apple won’t have to rebuild their ecosystem from scratch I wouldn’t be surprised if the ipad was basically a warning shot, and Apple switched the rest of their mobile devices over to USB-C with the 2022 releases.
  - 542354234235 5y ago
    >which required users to throw out all their old accessories and get new ones. Not if you migrate to the standard that every other device uses. Isn’t that the exact advantage of a universal standard?
    - Hackbraten 5y ago
      USB type C didn’t exist back then, while USB 2.0 type micro B didn’t offer the required bandwidth.
  - frosted-flakes 5y ago
    What accessories? A charging cable or headphone adapter? Ship them with the phone. There, done. In fact, Apple used to include both, but not USB-C.
- Hackbraten 5y ago
  > And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning) I feel that only confirms my point. The switch happened ten years ago, yet many people are still being mad at Apple today over it. > but so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that I think I’m failing to see your point. None of those vendors has any amount of control over the USB accessory ecosystem, or do they?
  - yellowapple 5y ago
    > I feel that only confirms my point. The switch happened ten years ago, yet many people are still being mad at Apple today over it. It disproves your point from multiple directions: 1. It demonstrates that Apple has no qualms about abandoning proprietary connectors and leaving an entire connector ecosystem stranded overnight. 2. It demonstrates that said connector ecosystem has no qualms about adapting to a new proprietary connector - let alone a standardized one. And no, I know of precisely zero people upset about switching away from the iPod connector. The only thing about which anyone is upset about is the fact that Apple chose a different proprietary connector instead of using that opportunity to standardize. > I think I’m failing to see your point. None of those vendors has any amount of control over the USB accessory ecosystem, or do they? The bigger players absolutely do manufacture their own accessories, but that's secondary to my point: that the accessory market readily adapted to phone manufacturers switching connectors on its own. Apple, if anything, would have an easier time for the exact reason you indicate: Apple has control over the Apple accessory ecosystem, and can use that control to put additional pressure on accessory makers.
hnbad 5y ago
> We’re better than that here. What do people think they're saying by saying this? No, this has literally happened here by one of "us" so "we" are clearly not better than this. Heck, "we" have done and are continuously doing far worse than this.
- Hackbraten 5y ago
  In case it’s not entirely clear: I was referring to HN guidelines. Accusing others of acting in bad faith is never helpful. I will continue to remind others of the rules, no matter how often they’ve been broken in the past.
  - dreamcompiler 5y ago
    Accusing people of acting in bad faith is impolite. Accusing companies of acting in bad faith when there is ample evidence of their wrongdoing is one's duty as a consumer.
    - Hackbraten 5y ago
      Ample evidence for Apple’s wrongdoing? Yes. Ample evidence for “Apple […] fucking with us all on purpose, just because they can?” Please elaborate.
  - hnbad 5y ago
    Cool. Yet this behavior (and worse) is widespread and not being punished by moderators except for the most blatantly obnoxious cases. Guidelines are only relevant to the extent that they are enforced, otherwise they're just a wish list, not a code of conduct. Speaking of good faith, a good faith reading of their comment would be that they think Apple is intentionally maintaining a non-standard connector for their smartphone range despite knowing that switching to USB-C would be beneficial to their users. Alleging that Apple acts in bad faith hardly seems like a violation of HN guidelines. If anything, the claim that they put the needs of the users first would seem the preposterous one as one would expect them to be beholden to their shareholders (and thus profit) above all, not their customers, and there are plenty of reasons why maintaining their own connector might be more profitable.
southerntofu 5y ago
Before USB-C, the universal, international standard was micro-USB and every phone manufacturer (at least in Europe) was bound by law to implement it. Apple has changed its connectors since socket interoperability became effective and they could have adopted the standard. They just purposefully ignored the consumer-respecting standards in order to keep their 40$-connector business flowing. According to European regulations, Apple's actions are strictly illegal, but if any law enforcement actually cared to protect people from wealthy corporations, we probably wouldn't have any climate change, tax evasion, planned obsolescence, science-denial smoking ads, corporate land grabs, companies stealing water supplies from local populations... As always, laws that protect the weak from the powerful are betrayed, while laws that protect the powerful from the weak are strongly enforced.
- himinlomax 5y ago
  Let's be charitable here, the lightning connector appears to be more durable than USB-C, at least on the device side. There's no protrusion, whereas in USB-C the contacts are on a very thin prong that çan be damaged if something small enough manages to get inside the connector.
  - The_Colonel 5y ago
    There's a difference between charitable and naive. I doubt the USB-C durability is a large scale problem. I follow smartphone world quite closely and have never heard/read about USB-C issues.
    - rualca 5y ago
      > I follow smartphone world quite closely and have never heard/read about USB-C issues. This isn't an effective point as the "smartphone world" is plagued by ephemeral devices which are either susceptible to programmed obsolescence or are caught in an upgrade treadmill due to a myriad of reasons (non-replaceable batteries failing, screen problems, camera issues, hardware failing due to wear, blocked software updates, fads, etc..)
  - 5y ago

jjtheblunt 5y ago

Apple can figure how to put USB-C on a phone, but perhaps does not because lightning's connector has preferable RF sensitivity profile. Not sure if it's measured as significant, but it's the sort of thing that RF engineering concerns itself with (preventing anything from detuning antennas or otherwise raising the noise floor).

toyg 5y ago
> but perhaps does not because lightning's connector has preferable RF sensitivity profile ... or because Lightning has a commercial "preferable profile" - it's another form of lock-in, and at the hardware level no less; such an extremely desirable feature, from a commercial perspective, is very, very hard to give up. It would open the door to a world where phone accessories are effectively universal, and surely we can't have that.
southerntofu 5y ago
> perhaps does not because lightning's connector has preferable RF sensitivity profile Given that literally every other smartphone on the market has a USB-C port, i'd say this is not the reason why Apple used a non-standard connector, failing (voluntarily) to comply with European interoperability laws/standards.
- aardvarkr 5y ago
  FYI the interpretability standards passed recently were for the charging block. Every device has to charge from a usb c port so that’s why Apple switched.
  - southerntofu 5y ago
    Apple switched? Switched what? I'm not up to date :)
    - toyg 5y ago
      Apple are slowly migrating to solutions that feature USB-C at some level, even if they keep Lightning on the phone itself. That's because EU authorities have signalled that they know Apple are taking the mickey, and will continue making more stringent rules until Apple play ball. E.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58665809 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-58665809

eecc 5y ago

IMHO it’s a shame that Lightning didn’t become the standard connector for USBC. There’s a reason for that: socket fragility. The socket is the most expensive part of the connection and when it breaks, it’s bad news. If you’re lucky and the bean counters didn’t overrule engineering over a microcent saving, the socket is on a daughter card otherwise you’re stuck with a one-port-down device, or an expensive motherboard replacement. Instead, the Lightning connector is as stupid as it gets, worst issue is pocket lint you can easily remove with a toothpick

happyhardcore 5y ago
I'd disagree with that one, with Lightning the pins are in the connector. I've broken my iPhone before trying to get lint out of the charging port and bending the pins by accident. USB C on the other hand has all the pins cable-side so there isn't anything to worry about ramming whatever you fancy into your phone or laptop since it's just a PCB with pads on rather than anything you can bend.
- eecc 5y ago
  So you’re saying that PCB [1] and those pads are more solid than the low profile pins in Lightning? I guess only a mechanical engineer can settle the argument. Anyone? [1] https://www.mouser.sg/new/molex/molex-usb-type-c/ https://www.mouser.sg/new/molex/molex-usb-type-c/
  - jmgao 5y ago
    The receptacle housing generally prevents you from bending the connector tongue, and even if you manage to do it somehow, AFAIK it's almost never FR4 in the receptacle (although USB-C receptacles printed directly on 0.8mm PCBs work great!). It'll generally be some sort of injection molded thermoplastic that's fairly flexible, so even if you manage to bend it, it'll spring back. As for pins vs pads, you can make pads almost arbitrarily more durable by increasing the gold plating thickness, whereas it's really hard to make pins not bend.
- bayindirh 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]