4 ms·

My advice would be the absolute opposite. "You are not your job, don't break your back making some other (probably already rich) dbag rich(er), take care of you

by twalla 5y ago

My advice would be the absolute opposite. "You are not your job, don't break your back making some other (probably already rich) dbag rich(er), take care of yourself and those you care about first and foremost". It's entirely possible to live authentically without being particularly passionate about the field you earn your living in - I don't have a passion or "dream job" in the software field because I don't dream about labor. I'd much rather be skiing, building stuff in my shop or fishing. This doesn't mean I don't like my job or that I don't find it interesting or that I'm not a good/productive engineer - it simply means I derive meaning in life elsewhere.

blunte 5y ago
But in your day job, if your manager hands you a task which you know is futile, or shortsighted, and a week or month later you're all going to regret the way it was done, do you just dig the ditch on the beach quietly, or do you fight for real progress? [edit, added: why do anything without making effort to do it well? not that this is your attitude, but this sort of attitude is why a lot of software really sucks]
- tharkun__ 5y ago
  If you can have fun digging the ditch on the beach and dig the best damn ditch you can, why not dig the ditch? And because you don't _really_ care that much about the ditch, it's easier not to burn yourself out. After 8 hours of digging you feel no remorse from going home. On some days you might dig for 10 hours (best damn ditch you're ever gonna dig while having fun, remember?) and feel no remorse when you stop digging real early next Friday.
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    Personally I don’t agree with ‘journey before destination’ that much. You may enjoy digging the ditch, but ultimately I would enjoy spending the same time on something more useful a lot better.
    - tharkun__ 5y ago
      I would tend to agree actually that digging a ditch on the beach together with the kids, seeing it fill with water, frantically trying to keep the walls from caving in and ultimately loosing to the incoming tide regardless is much more fun than digging a ditch in a swamp somewhere because $EMPLOYER likes swamp ditches. But swamp ditches pay the bills. I will happily dig beach ditches for employers, no doubt, but only with adequate shade and breaks (don't work 80 hour weeks), drinks provided etc.
- twalla 5y ago
  At this point in my career I'm typically the one advising my manager(s) because someone else already paid me to make or watch someone else make the mistake we're considering making. Perhaps I've just been fortunate to work with mostly smart and reasonable people so my advice is usually respected or if it's not there's usually a good reason - if it was a consistent pattern that I was just being handed random, ill thought out tasks with no context or reasoning I'd probably question what I'd done to get myself into that situation in the first place. I consider advising and guiding the engineering organization as a whole part of my job description but there's a point at which just doing the damn thing wins out over protracted debate and sitting in endless meetings. At that point my focus typically shifts to mitigating toil/drudgery/future maintenance for myself and my teammates - I've cursed the names of people I've never met because I've spent months undoing work with their name all over it and my driving motivation in situations like that is to not have my name be the one being cursed by whoever takes my place. I take pride in my work but I don't really tie my sense of self-worth to it at all, which I've seen end poorly for engineers who become emotionally invested in their pet solution or project. When you realize anything you come up with, even if it's the greatest, most beautiful, most elegant solution will likely be replaced/rewritten/become full of hacky bullshit within the span of a few years it makes it easier to accept that.
- BeetleB 5y ago
  > But in your day job, if your manager hands you a task which you know is futile, or shortsighted, and a week or month later you're all going to regret the way it was done, do you just dig the ditch on the beach quietly, or do you fight for real progress? I think the problem some have with your sentiments is that this scenario is as likely when you have a passion for something, and the control you have is the same as in the jobs you don't have a passion for. So the scenario is more one of: If the company is giving you pointless tasks, and has erected walls, is it worth the pain in trying to bang your head against those walls - knowing that the majority of the times you will not make a dent to those walls? Being passionate can lead to a lot more pain with virtually nothing to show for that pain. About half the jobs I had were for things I have some passion for. My experiences: 1. Jobs I had a passion for are all on the bottom half when it comes to my job satisfaction (without exception - no exaggeration). 2. Management in boring jobs are more likely to listen to me. If you're doing something that society puts a lot of value in (e.g. reducing world hunger), it will attract people who want glory, and they are harder to work with. 3. All the boring jobs have left me happier. 4. If I'm passionate about something, I will have my own definitions of success and metrics, and they never seem to align with the company's. What's the point of toiling away on something I'm passionate about if our goals differ? And then in the off chance I convince management to change, I'm as likely to get laid off as in the past. I know from experience how crappy it feels to accomplish something great, then be given the boot while they reap the rewards. And finally, I'm one of those odd people who doesn't separate job work from personal work. And with the passions that I have, there is no job/company out there that aligns with it. So the logical step is to find a way to minimize time at work and use the spare time to do something more meaningful to me. > why do anything without making effort to do it well? Invert it back to you: Why do something well if it has no benefit to you? Especially when you could use that time/energy doing things that are meaningful. People have different motives for doing things well, and they will do it if there is some payoff (and it need not be financial). > not that this is your attitude, but this sort of attitude is why a lot of software really sucks It definitely is, and that's unfortunately the point of stability when you look at the system as a whole. If you want better SW, work on the incentives. Don't expect people to go the extra mile that they will not be rewarded for. Time is finite. I used to work hard to make great SW, until I realized that I could use that time for more meaningful things. If my company rewarded me more than they do those who make crappy SW, I'd be more incentivized.

by twalla 5y ago

blunte 5y ago

But in your day job, if your manager hands you a task which you know is futile, or shortsighted, and a week or month later you're all going to regret the way it was done, do you just dig the ditch on the beach quietly, or do you fight for real progress? [edit, added: why do anything without making effort to do it well? not that this is your attitude, but this sort of attitude is why a lot of software really sucks]

tharkun__ 5y ago
If you can have fun digging the ditch on the beach and dig the best damn ditch you can, why not dig the ditch? And because you don't _really_ care that much about the ditch, it's easier not to burn yourself out. After 8 hours of digging you feel no remorse from going home. On some days you might dig for 10 hours (best damn ditch you're ever gonna dig while having fun, remember?) and feel no remorse when you stop digging real early next Friday.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  Personally I don’t agree with ‘journey before destination’ that much. You may enjoy digging the ditch, but ultimately I would enjoy spending the same time on something more useful a lot better.
  - tharkun__ 5y ago
    I would tend to agree actually that digging a ditch on the beach together with the kids, seeing it fill with water, frantically trying to keep the walls from caving in and ultimately loosing to the incoming tide regardless is much more fun than digging a ditch in a swamp somewhere because $EMPLOYER likes swamp ditches. But swamp ditches pay the bills. I will happily dig beach ditches for employers, no doubt, but only with adequate shade and breaks (don't work 80 hour weeks), drinks provided etc.
twalla 5y ago
At this point in my career I'm typically the one advising my manager(s) because someone else already paid me to make or watch someone else make the mistake we're considering making. Perhaps I've just been fortunate to work with mostly smart and reasonable people so my advice is usually respected or if it's not there's usually a good reason - if it was a consistent pattern that I was just being handed random, ill thought out tasks with no context or reasoning I'd probably question what I'd done to get myself into that situation in the first place. I consider advising and guiding the engineering organization as a whole part of my job description but there's a point at which just doing the damn thing wins out over protracted debate and sitting in endless meetings. At that point my focus typically shifts to mitigating toil/drudgery/future maintenance for myself and my teammates - I've cursed the names of people I've never met because I've spent months undoing work with their name all over it and my driving motivation in situations like that is to not have my name be the one being cursed by whoever takes my place. I take pride in my work but I don't really tie my sense of self-worth to it at all, which I've seen end poorly for engineers who become emotionally invested in their pet solution or project. When you realize anything you come up with, even if it's the greatest, most beautiful, most elegant solution will likely be replaced/rewritten/become full of hacky bullshit within the span of a few years it makes it easier to accept that.
BeetleB 5y ago
> But in your day job, if your manager hands you a task which you know is futile, or shortsighted, and a week or month later you're all going to regret the way it was done, do you just dig the ditch on the beach quietly, or do you fight for real progress? I think the problem some have with your sentiments is that this scenario is as likely when you have a passion for something, and the control you have is the same as in the jobs you don't have a passion for. So the scenario is more one of: If the company is giving you pointless tasks, and has erected walls, is it worth the pain in trying to bang your head against those walls - knowing that the majority of the times you will not make a dent to those walls? Being passionate can lead to a lot more pain with virtually nothing to show for that pain. About half the jobs I had were for things I have some passion for. My experiences: 1. Jobs I had a passion for are all on the bottom half when it comes to my job satisfaction (without exception - no exaggeration). 2. Management in boring jobs are more likely to listen to me. If you're doing something that society puts a lot of value in (e.g. reducing world hunger), it will attract people who want glory, and they are harder to work with. 3. All the boring jobs have left me happier. 4. If I'm passionate about something, I will have my own definitions of success and metrics, and they never seem to align with the company's. What's the point of toiling away on something I'm passionate about if our goals differ? And then in the off chance I convince management to change, I'm as likely to get laid off as in the past. I know from experience how crappy it feels to accomplish something great, then be given the boot while they reap the rewards. And finally, I'm one of those odd people who doesn't separate job work from personal work. And with the passions that I have, there is no job/company out there that aligns with it. So the logical step is to find a way to minimize time at work and use the spare time to do something more meaningful to me. > why do anything without making effort to do it well? Invert it back to you: Why do something well if it has no benefit to you? Especially when you could use that time/energy doing things that are meaningful. People have different motives for doing things well, and they will do it if there is some payoff (and it need not be financial). > not that this is your attitude, but this sort of attitude is why a lot of software really sucks It definitely is, and that's unfortunately the point of stability when you look at the system as a whole. If you want better SW, work on the incentives. Don't expect people to go the extra mile that they will not be rewarded for. Time is finite. I used to work hard to make great SW, until I realized that I could use that time for more meaningful things. If my company rewarded me more than they do those who make crappy SW, I'd be more incentivized.