6 ms·

> losing the moments I had with my family because my mind was so overloaded and preoccupied with things that ultimately didn't f*** matter. 12-18 mo after join

by blunte 5y ago

> losing the moments I had with my family because my mind was so overloaded and preoccupied with things that ultimately didn't f*** matter. 12-18 mo after joining most companies in my career, this was my feeling. It's awful. You literally fight to make things better in a company, to help the company earn a bit more profit. There are the enviable? people who can just work the 9 hours, do the job, not get committed or emotionally invested, and then leave the job when they walk out the door. But for some of us, there's the vision of what could be, and the absurd obstacles preventing us from reaching the what could be. Even so, the what could be often just means a percent or two more profit for the company. If you're saving babies and solving world hunger, it matters. If you're helping telecom companies recover from problems related to the 1980s billing systems which they never bit the bulled and replaced, it ultimately means nothing. > A weight was lifted off my shoulders. Until you feel this weight, and you walk away, you cannot know what this feels like. For the author, in such a short sentence, it sounds immediate. For me, 6 weeks after quitting a permanent contract (which is the kind of guaranteed security we're not used to in the US unless you're exective with a golden parachute), I'm finally coming to grips with my freedom. It's like a sponge that has been squeezed into a 1cm cube. If I could give my younger self advice, it would be to NEVER go work for a company unless you were absolutely passionate about their mission. Never work for the money. You could work for the money and die rich, never having lived authentically. Or you could live authentically, rich or poor, and die satisfied.

twalla 5y ago
My advice would be the absolute opposite. "You are not your job, don't break your back making some other (probably already rich) dbag rich(er), take care of yourself and those you care about first and foremost". It's entirely possible to live authentically without being particularly passionate about the field you earn your living in - I don't have a passion or "dream job" in the software field because I don't dream about labor. I'd much rather be skiing, building stuff in my shop or fishing. This doesn't mean I don't like my job or that I don't find it interesting or that I'm not a good/productive engineer - it simply means I derive meaning in life elsewhere.
- blunte 5y ago
  But in your day job, if your manager hands you a task which you know is futile, or shortsighted, and a week or month later you're all going to regret the way it was done, do you just dig the ditch on the beach quietly, or do you fight for real progress? [edit, added: why do anything without making effort to do it well? not that this is your attitude, but this sort of attitude is why a lot of software really sucks]
  - tharkun__ 5y ago
    If you can have fun digging the ditch on the beach and dig the best damn ditch you can, why not dig the ditch? And because you don't _really_ care that much about the ditch, it's easier not to burn yourself out. After 8 hours of digging you feel no remorse from going home. On some days you might dig for 10 hours (best damn ditch you're ever gonna dig while having fun, remember?) and feel no remorse when you stop digging real early next Friday.
    - Aeolun 5y ago
      Personally I don’t agree with ‘journey before destination’ that much. You may enjoy digging the ditch, but ultimately I would enjoy spending the same time on something more useful a lot better.
      - tharkun__ 5y ago
        I would tend to agree actually that digging a ditch on the beach together with the kids, seeing it fill with water, frantically trying to keep the walls from caving in and ultimately loosing to the incoming tide regardless is much more fun than digging a ditch in a swamp somewhere because $EMPLOYER likes swamp ditches. But swamp ditches pay the bills. I will happily dig beach ditches for employers, no doubt, but only with adequate shade and breaks (don't work 80 hour weeks), drinks provided etc.
  - twalla 5y ago
    At this point in my career I'm typically the one advising my manager(s) because someone else already paid me to make or watch someone else make the mistake we're considering making. Perhaps I've just been fortunate to work with mostly smart and reasonable people so my advice is usually respected or if it's not there's usually a good reason - if it was a consistent pattern that I was just being handed random, ill thought out tasks with no context or reasoning I'd probably question what I'd done to get myself into that situation in the first place. I consider advising and guiding the engineering organization as a whole part of my job description but there's a point at which just doing the damn thing wins out over protracted debate and sitting in endless meetings. At that point my focus typically shifts to mitigating toil/drudgery/future maintenance for myself and my teammates - I've cursed the names of people I've never met because I've spent months undoing work with their name all over it and my driving motivation in situations like that is to not have my name be the one being cursed by whoever takes my place. I take pride in my work but I don't really tie my sense of self-worth to it at all, which I've seen end poorly for engineers who become emotionally invested in their pet solution or project. When you realize anything you come up with, even if it's the greatest, most beautiful, most elegant solution will likely be replaced/rewritten/become full of hacky bullshit within the span of a few years it makes it easier to accept that.
randmeerkat 5y ago
> There are the enviable? people who can just work the 9 hours, do the job, not get committed or emotionally invested, and then leave the job when they walk out the door. If you’re working more than 8 you’re only robbing yourself of your life and your time, unless you’re a founder. > If I could give my younger self advice, it would be to NEVER go work for a company unless you were absolutely passionate about their mission. This constant theme of being “passionate” about the mission of a company that doesn’t care at all about you is so dystopian. What’s wrong with a job just being a job?
- blunte 5y ago
  9 hours is the practical time you spend at the office. 8 hours is the theoretical time worked. In reality, it can vary from 9 hours of solid focused work (rarely) to 3 hours of productive work. But either way, you're at the office for 9 hours. And with commute, figure 10 hours total. What's wrong with a job just being a job, for most jobs, is that it's 1/3 of your life being spent there. What excuse is there to do stupid, monotonous, or worse - counterproductive stuff for 1/3 of your life? I suppose if you're Hodor that's just fine. It's not fine for people who see potential and opportunities in every scenario. Ok, if you're a checkout clerk at a grocery store, there's not a lot of room for improvement unless you start to focus on having some good human interactions with your customers. But on HN, I figure that's not most of us. If you put the HN crowd on a road work crew, you know there would be a lot of workers who would identify significant opportunities for improving the process. Unless you're a monk, why would you do the slow and inefficient thing, excusing it as "it's just a job"? If you see a way to make your 8 hours of labor be worth twice as much to the company profit, or to the customers, or even to your joy and satisfaction, then why wouldn't you try?
  - randmeerkat 5y ago
    I’m not saying checkout for 8 hours, or to not try. You’re right, it’s at least 1/3rd of your life, you may as well do your best. It’s just, I don’t see the reason why everyone has to be passionate about their “company” and drink the koolaid. The company doesn’t care about you, someone somewhere in some leadership position has problematic morals, the person sitting across from you may have checked out, and your life / well-being is being dominated by someone that only cares about you inasmuch as you can give them something that helps them. You didn’t elect anyone in this position to rule you and you may or may not have had any input in the colleagues that were hired to work with you. No wonder people are so unhappy and burnt out right now… So don’t give your “company” any more of your soul than you have to, and certainly don’t give them your passion. Save that for yourself, your family, your friends, your side projects. A day job is trading the best hours of your life for someone else’s gain, don’t give them more than you have to.
deviation 5y ago
This is the reason I hop companies every ~2 years. The 3-6 month period after joining a new company is absolute bliss. Because of this I am less attached to the work, there is more wiggle room, and I am less stressed about meeting deadlines. Expectations from management will also be lower because you are a new-hire without any context. I'm not even going to get into the huge salary bumps you'll receive by hopping instead of waiting and fighting through performance reviews for a raise...
- blunte 5y ago
  This is spot on. And it's such a shame. Most good raises come from quitting and changing jobs. The first few months, once you've passed the interview and been accepted, you have ridiculous room to be a loser (not suggesting you are) before the company will begin to recognize that. Consequently, you may look around and see a lot of actual losers who are underperforming because they're lazy or inadequate. Freelance, learning to play the consulting game, charging a lot, and negotiating unreasonable things (like pay me in advance for a year of income and you have my attention for a year for any project) is the way to go for people who feel this way. Or you build a SaaS or other business and make it work. Or marry rich.
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
> If I could give my younger self advice, it would be to NEVER go work for a company unless you were absolutely passionate about their mission. Never work for the money. You could work for the money and die rich, never having lived authentically. Or you could live authentically, rich or poor, and die satisfied. I liked the article. It was an authentic (I assume) personal story. It wasn't a "strawman," or a "this is the way things should be" thing. It was a fairly plain-spoken personal chronicle. I enjoyed it, and wish the author well. For myself, I worked at a company that had a mission I was passionate about. I'm also a xenophile, and it was a Japanese company. I was fascinated by the Japanese commitment to Quality (at that company). I like working in teams; the more varied and exotic, the better. I joined, planning on an 18-month stay (like my previous two gigs), but left, 27 years later. I made some effort to find new work, after leaving that company, but became quite disillusioned with the process. I had acquired a "nest egg" that would allow me to retire, early. After a few insulting and rather demoralizing interactions with a few corporations, I decided that it was time to hang up my chinos, and write the code I always wanted to write, the way I wanted to write it; with no one taking a dump on it. I have never been happier. I am probably working harder than I ever have, in my life, and having a blast.
- ceocoder 5y ago
  Oh hey Chris! Good to see you here again, completely off topic follow up: did you or your siblings ever end up writing about work your father did with three letter agencies? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23812386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23812386
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
    Good to see you. No, I suspect that we have all the information that we will get. He earned a bronze star, silver star, and a couple of purple hearts, during WWII (I only found one, but he was wounded at least twice -maybe they just award one). It earned my parents a place in Arlington, with the whole caisson/21-gun salute thing, but we have no idea why he got them. There was a big fire, in St. Louis, in the 1950s (I think), that destroyed a lot of records. Forget hearing anything he did with The Company. He was one of the first field agents. I think he may have been recruited in the first year or so of the agency. We think at least one of his brothers may also have been a "company man," but we'll never know. He took that secret to the grave.
kelnos 5y ago
> If I could give my younger self advice, it would be to NEVER go work for a company unless you were absolutely passionate about their mission. Never work for the money. You could work for the money and die rich, never having lived authentically. Or you could live authentically, rich or poor, and die satisfied. My advice to my younger self would be to chase the money. Make as much as you can, as quickly as you can, so you don't have to work for someone else ever again. I've been passionate about my work before, and, with the exception of one employer, it led me to burnout and under-compensation for my hard work (with the executives of course still taking their fat paychecks). I think there's also a middle ground where you can get compensated fantastically for what you do, and also work on things that you agree with and think are ethically sound, but don't drive you to work past midnight regularly because you love it so much. Unless you are running the show, your passion is irrelevant. The people who run the show will do whatever they need to do to line their own pockets, and if that means exploiting your labor, or changing the mission to something you're not so passionate about anymore (or, worse, something you're actively against), they'll do it, and they won't be apologetic about it in the least. Ironically, I think a good way to be compensated while doing something you're passionate about is as a consultant/contractor, where you get to set your rates and schedule. If you're getting paid hourly, all the better, because you know that every hour you put into it is going to earn you more money. As a salaried employee, working harder just dilutes your effective per-hour rate. And as a contractor, it's a lot easier to quit and move on to something else when the company inevitably changes direction in ways you aren't happy with.
- Gortal278 5y ago
  I agree with everything you said in this post! Get the money! Though contracting rates are stuck low unfortunately, I never found anything better than 125/hr.
dismalpedigree 5y ago
I recently walked away from well over 7 figures for this very reason. Its one of the best damn decisions I have ever made. So much happier now.
nwallin 5y ago
> If I could give my younger self advice, it would be to NEVER go work for a company unless you were absolutely passionate about their mission. Never work for the money. There's something more here I think. It's perfectly fine to just have a job that pays the bills. But it's not fine if you take that job home with you. It's not fine if the job takes a mental or physical toll on your mind or body. It's not fine to be married to a job. Any job IMHO, even one that you're absolutely passionate about or whatever. Even if you're saving babies and solving world hunger or whatever it's not worth sacrificing your family/friend time. Personally I make about half as much money at my current job as my last job, but I work half as many hours, and there's no expectation of being a "team player" or "work hard play hard" nonsense, no phone calls at night or on the weekends, I don't have email or teams/slack installed on my phone, I have an office with a door that I can close. (well, I used to, in The Before Times) I make decent money (it's hard to get paid poorly as a software developer) but it's not early retirement money or fancy sports car money the way my last job was. I show up, I do my job, I go home. It's a nice company that does nice things in the world, but I don't really care. And I know all about the feeling of relief the author mentions. The idea of searching for the "perfect" job where you're passionate about working for such a wonderful company-- to me that sounds unrealistic. Like watching too many Disney princess movies as a kid and growing up expecting that you'll marry Prince Charming, or being pretty good at football in high school and expecting to play in the NFL, or the musician who keeps trying to get their lucky break. The world... well it's just not like that.

by blunte 5y ago

twalla 5y ago

My advice would be the absolute opposite. "You are not your job, don't break your back making some other (probably already rich) dbag rich(er), take care of yourself and those you care about first and foremost". It's entirely possible to live authentically without being particularly passionate about the field you earn your living in - I don't have a passion or "dream job" in the software field because I don't dream about labor. I'd much rather be skiing, building stuff in my shop or fishing. This doesn't mean I don't like my job or that I don't find it interesting or that I'm not a good/productive engineer - it simply means I derive meaning in life elsewhere.

blunte 5y ago
But in your day job, if your manager hands you a task which you know is futile, or shortsighted, and a week or month later you're all going to regret the way it was done, do you just dig the ditch on the beach quietly, or do you fight for real progress? [edit, added: why do anything without making effort to do it well? not that this is your attitude, but this sort of attitude is why a lot of software really sucks]
- tharkun__ 5y ago
  If you can have fun digging the ditch on the beach and dig the best damn ditch you can, why not dig the ditch? And because you don't _really_ care that much about the ditch, it's easier not to burn yourself out. After 8 hours of digging you feel no remorse from going home. On some days you might dig for 10 hours (best damn ditch you're ever gonna dig while having fun, remember?) and feel no remorse when you stop digging real early next Friday.
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    Personally I don’t agree with ‘journey before destination’ that much. You may enjoy digging the ditch, but ultimately I would enjoy spending the same time on something more useful a lot better.
    - tharkun__ 5y ago
      I would tend to agree actually that digging a ditch on the beach together with the kids, seeing it fill with water, frantically trying to keep the walls from caving in and ultimately loosing to the incoming tide regardless is much more fun than digging a ditch in a swamp somewhere because $EMPLOYER likes swamp ditches. But swamp ditches pay the bills. I will happily dig beach ditches for employers, no doubt, but only with adequate shade and breaks (don't work 80 hour weeks), drinks provided etc.
- twalla 5y ago
  At this point in my career I'm typically the one advising my manager(s) because someone else already paid me to make or watch someone else make the mistake we're considering making. Perhaps I've just been fortunate to work with mostly smart and reasonable people so my advice is usually respected or if it's not there's usually a good reason - if it was a consistent pattern that I was just being handed random, ill thought out tasks with no context or reasoning I'd probably question what I'd done to get myself into that situation in the first place. I consider advising and guiding the engineering organization as a whole part of my job description but there's a point at which just doing the damn thing wins out over protracted debate and sitting in endless meetings. At that point my focus typically shifts to mitigating toil/drudgery/future maintenance for myself and my teammates - I've cursed the names of people I've never met because I've spent months undoing work with their name all over it and my driving motivation in situations like that is to not have my name be the one being cursed by whoever takes my place. I take pride in my work but I don't really tie my sense of self-worth to it at all, which I've seen end poorly for engineers who become emotionally invested in their pet solution or project. When you realize anything you come up with, even if it's the greatest, most beautiful, most elegant solution will likely be replaced/rewritten/become full of hacky bullshit within the span of a few years it makes it easier to accept that.

randmeerkat 5y ago

> There are the enviable? people who can just work the 9 hours, do the job, not get committed or emotionally invested, and then leave the job when they walk out the door. If you’re working more than 8 you’re only robbing yourself of your life and your time, unless you’re a founder. > If I could give my younger self advice, it would be to NEVER go work for a company unless you were absolutely passionate about their mission. This constant theme of being “passionate” about the mission of a company that doesn’t care at all about you is so dystopian. What’s wrong with a job just being a job?

blunte 5y ago
9 hours is the practical time you spend at the office. 8 hours is the theoretical time worked. In reality, it can vary from 9 hours of solid focused work (rarely) to 3 hours of productive work. But either way, you're at the office for 9 hours. And with commute, figure 10 hours total. What's wrong with a job just being a job, for most jobs, is that it's 1/3 of your life being spent there. What excuse is there to do stupid, monotonous, or worse - counterproductive stuff for 1/3 of your life? I suppose if you're Hodor that's just fine. It's not fine for people who see potential and opportunities in every scenario. Ok, if you're a checkout clerk at a grocery store, there's not a lot of room for improvement unless you start to focus on having some good human interactions with your customers. But on HN, I figure that's not most of us. If you put the HN crowd on a road work crew, you know there would be a lot of workers who would identify significant opportunities for improving the process. Unless you're a monk, why would you do the slow and inefficient thing, excusing it as "it's just a job"? If you see a way to make your 8 hours of labor be worth twice as much to the company profit, or to the customers, or even to your joy and satisfaction, then why wouldn't you try?
- randmeerkat 5y ago
  I’m not saying checkout for 8 hours, or to not try. You’re right, it’s at least 1/3rd of your life, you may as well do your best. It’s just, I don’t see the reason why everyone has to be passionate about their “company” and drink the koolaid. The company doesn’t care about you, someone somewhere in some leadership position has problematic morals, the person sitting across from you may have checked out, and your life / well-being is being dominated by someone that only cares about you inasmuch as you can give them something that helps them. You didn’t elect anyone in this position to rule you and you may or may not have had any input in the colleagues that were hired to work with you. No wonder people are so unhappy and burnt out right now… So don’t give your “company” any more of your soul than you have to, and certainly don’t give them your passion. Save that for yourself, your family, your friends, your side projects. A day job is trading the best hours of your life for someone else’s gain, don’t give them more than you have to.

deviation 5y ago

This is the reason I hop companies every ~2 years. The 3-6 month period after joining a new company is absolute bliss. Because of this I am less attached to the work, there is more wiggle room, and I am less stressed about meeting deadlines. Expectations from management will also be lower because you are a new-hire without any context. I'm not even going to get into the huge salary bumps you'll receive by hopping instead of waiting and fighting through performance reviews for a raise...

blunte 5y ago
This is spot on. And it's such a shame. Most good raises come from quitting and changing jobs. The first few months, once you've passed the interview and been accepted, you have ridiculous room to be a loser (not suggesting you are) before the company will begin to recognize that. Consequently, you may look around and see a lot of actual losers who are underperforming because they're lazy or inadequate. Freelance, learning to play the consulting game, charging a lot, and negotiating unreasonable things (like pay me in advance for a year of income and you have my attention for a year for any project) is the way to go for people who feel this way. Or you build a SaaS or other business and make it work. Or marry rich.

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

> If I could give my younger self advice, it would be to NEVER go work for a company unless you were absolutely passionate about their mission. Never work for the money. You could work for the money and die rich, never having lived authentically. Or you could live authentically, rich or poor, and die satisfied. I liked the article. It was an authentic (I assume) personal story. It wasn't a "strawman," or a "this is the way things should be" thing. It was a fairly plain-spoken personal chronicle. I enjoyed it, and wish the author well. For myself, I worked at a company that had a mission I was passionate about. I'm also a xenophile, and it was a Japanese company. I was fascinated by the Japanese commitment to Quality (at that company). I like working in teams; the more varied and exotic, the better. I joined, planning on an 18-month stay (like my previous two gigs), but left, 27 years later. I made some effort to find new work, after leaving that company, but became quite disillusioned with the process. I had acquired a "nest egg" that would allow me to retire, early. After a few insulting and rather demoralizing interactions with a few corporations, I decided that it was time to hang up my chinos, and write the code I always wanted to write, the way I wanted to write it; with no one taking a dump on it. I have never been happier. I am probably working harder than I ever have, in my life, and having a blast.

ceocoder 5y ago
Oh hey Chris! Good to see you here again, completely off topic follow up: did you or your siblings ever end up writing about work your father did with three letter agencies? [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23812386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23812386
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
  Good to see you. No, I suspect that we have all the information that we will get. He earned a bronze star, silver star, and a couple of purple hearts, during WWII (I only found one, but he was wounded at least twice -maybe they just award one). It earned my parents a place in Arlington, with the whole caisson/21-gun salute thing, but we have no idea why he got them. There was a big fire, in St. Louis, in the 1950s (I think), that destroyed a lot of records. Forget hearing anything he did with The Company. He was one of the first field agents. I think he may have been recruited in the first year or so of the agency. We think at least one of his brothers may also have been a "company man," but we'll never know. He took that secret to the grave.

kelnos 5y ago

> If I could give my younger self advice, it would be to NEVER go work for a company unless you were absolutely passionate about their mission. Never work for the money. You could work for the money and die rich, never having lived authentically. Or you could live authentically, rich or poor, and die satisfied. My advice to my younger self would be to chase the money. Make as much as you can, as quickly as you can, so you don't have to work for someone else ever again. I've been passionate about my work before, and, with the exception of one employer, it led me to burnout and under-compensation for my hard work (with the executives of course still taking their fat paychecks). I think there's also a middle ground where you can get compensated fantastically for what you do, and also work on things that you agree with and think are ethically sound, but don't drive you to work past midnight regularly because you love it so much. Unless you are running the show, your passion is irrelevant. The people who run the show will do whatever they need to do to line their own pockets, and if that means exploiting your labor, or changing the mission to something you're not so passionate about anymore (or, worse, something you're actively against), they'll do it, and they won't be apologetic about it in the least. Ironically, I think a good way to be compensated while doing something you're passionate about is as a consultant/contractor, where you get to set your rates and schedule. If you're getting paid hourly, all the better, because you know that every hour you put into it is going to earn you more money. As a salaried employee, working harder just dilutes your effective per-hour rate. And as a contractor, it's a lot easier to quit and move on to something else when the company inevitably changes direction in ways you aren't happy with.

Gortal278 5y ago
I agree with everything you said in this post! Get the money! Though contracting rates are stuck low unfortunately, I never found anything better than 125/hr.

dismalpedigree 5y ago

I recently walked away from well over 7 figures for this very reason. Its one of the best damn decisions I have ever made. So much happier now.

nwallin 5y ago

> If I could give my younger self advice, it would be to NEVER go work for a company unless you were absolutely passionate about their mission. Never work for the money. There's something more here I think. It's perfectly fine to just have a job that pays the bills. But it's not fine if you take that job home with you. It's not fine if the job takes a mental or physical toll on your mind or body. It's not fine to be married to a job. Any job IMHO, even one that you're absolutely passionate about or whatever. Even if you're saving babies and solving world hunger or whatever it's not worth sacrificing your family/friend time. Personally I make about half as much money at my current job as my last job, but I work half as many hours, and there's no expectation of being a "team player" or "work hard play hard" nonsense, no phone calls at night or on the weekends, I don't have email or teams/slack installed on my phone, I have an office with a door that I can close. (well, I used to, in The Before Times) I make decent money (it's hard to get paid poorly as a software developer) but it's not early retirement money or fancy sports car money the way my last job was. I show up, I do my job, I go home. It's a nice company that does nice things in the world, but I don't really care. And I know all about the feeling of relief the author mentions. The idea of searching for the "perfect" job where you're passionate about working for such a wonderful company-- to me that sounds unrealistic. Like watching too many Disney princess movies as a kid and growing up expecting that you'll marry Prince Charming, or being pretty good at football in high school and expecting to play in the NFL, or the musician who keeps trying to get their lucky break. The world... well it's just not like that.