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Everything I read on the internet suggests that UK tech salaries are extremely low, and that the profession has a low level of respect overall. I have many man

Everything I read on the internet suggests that UK tech salaries are extremely low, and that the profession has a low level of respect overall. I have many many foreign or first generation immigrant coworkers, but almost no one British. I'm surprised, because there's no language barrier and a minimal cultural barrier, but still the vast majority of my coworkers are from places that are much harder to immigrate from. If any UKites have made it to this thread, is be curious to hear why so few people leave for countries with a stronger and higher paying tech sector?

dkdbejwi383 5y ago
> If any UKites have made it to this thread, is be curious to hear why so few people leave for countries with a stronger and higher paying tech sector? Where do you suggest? I only speak English to any decent level, German to a barely conversational degree, and given brexit, the right to work in a German speaking country is not a given. I sure as hell am not ever going to live in the (no offence) right-wing dystopia of the USA. That leaves me with what? Canada or Australia? Both far away, with equally “bad” salaries and far away from my roots?
- lostdog 5y ago
  I did mean the USA, but now see that it was implicit (sorry. I probably enforced a bunch of stereotypes right there). I'm very curious if "it's a right-wing dystopia" is a common viewpoint, and whether it comes from direct experience, or just reading about the US. (Not disagreeing at all).
  - Computeiful 5y ago
    I'd say "right-wing dystopia" is putting it too strongly. The USA is definitely further right than the UK, but the main perception I'd say is that the politics in the USA are toxic, highly polarised and all-consuming (very easy to get sucked into it and hard to get out). But I don't think that's a surprising perception given that for the last 6 years, the news we get about the USA across the pond is almost exclusively politically-orientated.
  - pavlov 5y ago
    I'm a European living in the US. It's not (yet) a right-wing dystopia, but the political system is clearly teetering at a point of collapse. The last presidential election was barely certified. Several people were killed in the national parliament building during an insurrection stoked by a candidate. Lies about election security are being spread to undermine public trust. Those are things that you'd expect to read about elections in some African country, not a Western democracy. Will they be able to certify the next election with only a handful of people killed? I don't know, but I'm planning to get out of here before that.
  - jwdunne 5y ago
    I think it is. Whenever I suggested I’d like to move out to the US one day to work on a start up or in the healthy tech scenes, most recoil as if I’m out of my mind. After seeing the number of massacres/shoot outs, losing an online friend to gun crime, healthcare bankruptcy and seeing Trump get voted in after he mocked a disabled journalist, I too decided I was out of my mind. I’m not sure if I’m welcome anyway - I’d fair better being a white male but that shouldn’t matter. It just doesn’t look good. I guess Boris was voted in over here but still… it’s bad but not quite the same level. I do okay on what I get, I guess.
  - Nextgrid 5y ago
    As an outsider what I don't like about the US is less the politics of particular candidates (I guess that's the point of politics and having multiple competing parties - people vote for those with whom they align with) but the "dynamics" and people's approach to politics. Everything seems politicized to a much higher extent than in the UK or European countries. As a recent example, masks and vaccines are seen as political messages by (seemingly) a lot of people.
- exolymph 5y ago
  Meanwhile, in the UK you can be arrested for insulting someone on Twitter.
  - pertymcpert 5y ago
    What do you think they're referring to by "right wing dystopia"? Do you think your reply was an effective counterpoint?
    - exolymph 5y ago
      Restricting speech is a hallmark of authoritarianism. That is what I meant to imply.
      - pertymcpert 5y ago
        I think you're incorrectly conflating right wing ideology with authoritarianism.
klelatti 5y ago
Not sure about the ‘extremely low salaries’ bit but don’t forget that in London for example finance can pay very well indeed so I suspect that lots of potential tech emigrees end up working in banking.
- als0 5y ago
  On average tech workers are paid more in London because the rent prices are crippling.
Computeiful 5y ago
UKite here, active in the London fintech scene. Everything I say is based purely on my perception of the situation. Anecdotally, I see more people in this sector moving to places such as Canada, Australia and New Zealand than to the USA. I think there is a perception here that while salaries might be higher in the USA, there are hidden costs both financially and socially (such as health insurance payments, getting to grips with the American "way of life" etc). The American "way of life" in particular is not seen as "glamorous" (again anecdotally) and I think most view it as a bit of a step down, while the other countries I mentioned are viewed as a step up. Afaik, there are more UK citizens living in Australia than all the rest of Europe combined.
- mmerlin 5y ago
  Perth has the highest per capita percentage migration from the UK, compared with the eastern states of Australia. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perth#Ancestry_and_immigration https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perth#Ancestry_and_immigrati...
  - iso1210 5y ago
    Perth feels a lot nearer to the UK (especially with the non-stop flight from London, 17 hours vs 24 with a layover to Sydney) than the rest of the continent. It's 7 hours ahead rather than 9 which I think makes a difference too.
- zz865 5y ago
  I moved to the US from the UK and I think it was a mistake. The first 5 years were great now my kids have settled I feel kinda stuck. I didn't mind working non stop and dedicating life to work, but its a drag.
  - mixmastamyk 5y ago
    When you get some experience and seniority is usually isn’t too bad. All my jobs would extend vacation when I asked, even if some portion were unpaid.
  - 5y ago
walshemj 5y ago
Science and Tech professions have much lower status in the UK basically we are a source of cheap well trained English speaking Engineers.
pydry 5y ago
UK contractor rates can rival US salaries - not equivalent but close enough to be comfortable. That said I know of a fair few people who emigrated.
ca01an 5y ago
UK salaries are a lot lower than US salaries but every country has lower salaries than the US and the UK fares better than most. I would guess this means brits have less incentive to emigrate than people from India or somewhere were salaries are even lower than the UK. It’s also quite difficult to move to the US from the UK, a lot easier to move to Canada, Australia, New Zealand or the rest of Europe.
- sprafa 5y ago
  There are also virtually equally exciting opportunities, I think. Deepmind has never moved from london, and google essentially just built their HQ around them in kings cross.
  - aix1 5y ago
    The new DeepMind building and the new Google building are close to each other, yes. However, G building their HQ around DM is quite a claim.
  - disgruntledphd2 5y ago
    Google have had a London office for at least fifteen years, well before they acquired Deepmind.
jon-wood 5y ago
Extremely low compared to what? I’m in a competitively paid position as a principle developer for a large London technology company. Not renowned for high salaries, but also not bottom of the market. Most people I know in basically any other industry make less money pre-tax than I have left over after tax, deductions, rent, and bills. I’m sure I could find things to do with more money, just as anyone can, but I definitely hit the point a while ago where more money would significantly improve my level of happiness. Given that, why would I pack up my entire life and start over in another country?
zz865 5y ago
Compared to SF/NY salaries are low. Compared to Chicago/Denver/Houston UK tech salaries are probably similar. Traditionally the big banks in the city paid very highly but since the financial collapse pay has stagnated. A low level of respect follows the money. London has a lot of traders, big company execs, politicians, lawyers, accountants etc they all pay more than IT.
michaelt 5y ago
> If any UKites have made it to this thread, is be curious to hear why so few people leave for countries with a stronger and higher paying tech sector? First of all, working in tech in the UK you can make $130,000 which is 3-4x the median annual salary. Very few Brits would describe that is "extremely low". That's enough money to have a few kids, a wife who doesn't work, and a pretty decent lifestyle. Why move a 10-hour flight away from all my friends and family, just because I could earn enough to drive a Lamborghini instead of a Lotus Elise?
- nodejs_rulez_1 5y ago
  > First of all, working in tech in the UK you can make $130,000 which is 3-4x the median annual salary. That's not a common compensation at all. I think USA gives way more choices, at the very least finance, big tech and start-ups (that actually offer noticeable equity, unlike UK).
  - fy20 5y ago
    I've been outside the UK for a few years, but when I was there £80k for a senior in London was fairly standard, and I had recruiters emailing me for £100k roles. That's the pre-tax salary; getting some extra compensation or perks would be somewhat expected, but not at US levels. Outside London it varies a lot though... I'm from the South West and £50k would be a good salary there. But that's no different from some places in the US. If you live in a small town, of course there is less opportunity. But most people who know their worth become contractors. I've had to work with people on £500/day who I wouldn't even trust to run the tests properly. Selling yourself as a "senior <insert hot language of the day> developer" you can easily command a few hundred more. And then there's fintech which goes even higher. In the UK there isn't that much difference in security from being an employee vs a contractor (you still have state health insurance at the end of the day). Even without the higher rates, the tax benefits alone make it very beneficial, which is why IR35 regulations have been brought in. I know someone who has a company car (Porsche Taycan) which they use to drive to the company yatch...
    - iso1210 5y ago
erdo 5y ago
Personally speaking (and I say this as a Brit who really likes the US, and Americans in general whenever I meet them). I haven't tried to move to the US because of the slightly distasteful situation in terms of education, healthcare and social security, car dependence, weirdly low holiday allowance, Foxnews, QAnon, an alarming gun lobby, and the current republican party in general is quite quite shocking to me in it's transparent gaslighting, racism and anti-democratic (small d) tendencies. The UK has its fair share of opportunistic charlatans too of course, ahem. That's why I now live in mainland Europe, get great health care, fast trains, fast internet, good work life balance etc though I probably earn less than I would if I was in the US There are plenty of good reasons to move [to the US] too of course, and I do know quite a few who have (including my sister who loves it, and I suspect is never going to move back to rainy Britain) There might be another reason you don't see many brit developers in the US though, we probably just don't produce that many of them. I worked in London for 20 years and the typical dev team had less than 50% Brits in it even there. Looking at Hollywood we seem to produce a lot more actors that can do a passable American accent than developers.
- dboreham 5y ago
  Hmm...I've worked in silicon valley (either there, or remote) for 25 years and have constantly run into brits. The holiday thing isn't quite what it seems because while brits will write down the 1/2 day they took off to go to the dentist, Americans do not. The racist/fascist thing is concerning, but the UK doesn't look so good these days either (Brexit, Boris, ...) US seems to be doing like Churchill said : Always Do the Right Thing — After Exhausting All the Alternatives
  - timomax2 5y ago
    Brits in white collar jobs don't take holiday to go to the dentist.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
    Brexit is neither fascist nor (intrinsically) racist. Boris certainly has some racist ministers working for him, and I don't doubt that he's casually racist; but then most people are, to some extent. I worked in the US for a year. I'll never go back. I saw too many black kids lying on their faces by the side of the highway, with cops standing over them pointing pistols at them. I never saw a carload of white kids getting that treatment. This was a daily experience (and I was only on the highway for about 10 minutes daily). It's completely normal. I was regularly told that when I leave my home, I shouldn't walk past Nth St., because that's a "bad neighbourhood" (i.e. black). My experience of living in US was restricted to Richmond, VA. I've been to other parts, but not lived in them. Sure, UK cops are racist too. But somehow the US cops seem to get a free pass - it's almost as if they're hired to be racists and bullies.
dukeyukey 5y ago
> Everything I read on the internet suggests that UK tech salaries are extremely low, and that the profession has a low level of respect overall. For salaries, we're better paid than the vast majority of white-collar workers to the point it becomes a running joke. I once got asked by a standup comedian doing a set what my job is, I said software dev, and he answered "blimey you must be fuckin loaded". We're not at the level of the US, but we're probably higher than most of Western Europe, at least after CoL (e.g. https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/uk-developers-best-paid-europe-2021-02/ https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/uk-developer...). It can be tricky to compare salaries across countries, but I can't imagine the massive amounts of European developers came to London for the climate. As for respect, I don't really know what you mean. Beyond professions like nurses/social workers, I (and I hope most people) don't really base respect on profession. We probably get more professional respect in the workplace, we get away with stuff the other departments definitely don't, but personal respect? Just doesn't come into it, unless you're a social worker or nurse or something.
- erdo 5y ago
  I think I might know what the OP means by respect. You see it in Thai dev recruitment ads, they sometimes mandate developers to be 27 years old or younger, the implication seems to be that if you are still a developer by the time you're 28, then there must be something wrong with you. It can be seen as something akin to an admin role, for which more than two years experience would be pointless. I never experienced that in London, quite the opposite, devs have a mystic status as the person who probably earns more than anyone else, doing something no one understands and still wears a t-shirt to work. I do see the low respect attitude in Paris a little though (or perhaps it's simply budget constraints). The best development is the cheapest, for instance there are a lot more react native gigs here where they want one person to do both an iOS and an Android app, and the contract is for 3 months. I don't touch those with a barge pole because they'll end up with junk that barely works of course
digianarchist 5y ago
I left the UK because of the dire salaries. £25,000 South East England £30,000 North West England £45,000 London (last offer in UK I didn't take) Moved to Canada £60,000 Toronto £75,000 Toronto £85,000 Toronto £105,000 base £35,000 RSUs Toronto
1_player 5y ago
> If any UKites have made it to this thread, is be curious to hear why so few people leave for countries with a stronger and higher paying tech sector? If by "countries with higher paying tech sector" you mean the USA, with all due respect and without going into a huge discussion, I much prefer staying in UK, or the European continent in general. There is more to life, happiness, comfort, long-term goals and self-realisation than the number of dollars deposited in my bank account by my employer. With remote working and the Internet the idea of relocating where your job is, is quite antiquated, at least for my standards. If I really need the money, I'll try and find a way to get paid US salaries while living in the EU. As a software engineer working 100% remote and living in London I get paid 3-4x the average London salary, which is enough _for me_ to live more than comfortably and I don't really feel I need to earn $500k a year to improve my quality of life. I can't afford a private jet, but I don't need one, either.
- tudorizer 5y ago
  100% my thoughts too. US seems to have a lot of hidden costs , plus the value of the $ dropped quite a bit in recent times.
  - ta988 5y ago
    If you want to live in a big city yes cost can be high. But it can also be extremely low if you choose to live in less dense areas.
cameronh90 5y ago
Extremely low? Not as high as SF, sure, but easily top 5% for the country after a few years experience. Salary aside, many people find life a lot more enjoyable here. I know plenty of people who've worked for a period in the US and come back, as well as myself having done a stint for a US company for a while. US corporate working culture is rather different to here. Here, if you don't take 4+ weeks holiday, your manager will have a word with you for working too much. Complaining about being back at work after a holiday is expected. At the end of the day, you log off and go home, and you don't think about work again until the next morning except in exceptional cases. Everyone knows and accepts that work is work, not the point of your life. 3PM Friday drinks is still a part of the culture in many companies, as is knocking off early on a nice day and going to the pub. Obviously it's not like this in every job (particularly low salary or menial), but every job I and most of my acquaintances have had has been vaguely like this. Then of course there's safety, environment, toxic politics, healthcare, etc. plus generally just liking what you're familiar with. I love the USA, but there are things that are hard to get used to, like car-only suburbs, jaywalking laws, beaches that close at night or are privately owned, rules against outdoor drinking... I also find UK tech has less of an ageism problem than the USA. People sometimes return here after they start to find their age is causing problems finding work in the US.
- piker 5y ago
  > US corporate working culture is rather different to here. Here, if you don't take 4+ weeks holiday, your manager will have a word with you for working too much. Complaining about being back at work after a holiday is expected. At the end of the day, you log off and go home, and you don't think about work again until the next morning except in exceptional cases. Everyone knows and accepts that work is work, not the point of your life. 3PM Friday drinks is still a part of the culture in many companies, as is knocking off early on a nice day and going to the pub. This is a classic view in London's legal industry. In truth, solicitors in London work as hard as New York corporate lawyers and earn 25%-33% of the pay. Yes, they do tend to take more vacation days and don't have to pay for health insurance, but the health insurance component is made up for taxes and otherwise vacation days are about the only difference.
  - 5y ago
lostdog 5y ago
[Thanks to all the brits for educating me! I did not realize there where bands of SWE pay that were relatively well compensated. I have also learned a lot about perceptions of the U.S. Later tonight, when I don the armor I constructed from discarded soda bottles, and leave my home storage locker to scavenge the dumpster scraps from a Kardashian's birthday party, I will reflect on the downsides of Americans' societal choices.]
randomsearch 5y ago
One datapoint fwiw, but someone recently asked me why I hadn’t moved to the US. I reflected on it a while. First point, I’ve travelled a lot to the US and would definitely not live in SF due to the insane levels of inequality and homelessness. I also like diversity and think it’s a competitive advantage in some domains, SF seems to be a bit of a monoculture. But I do like cities like Boulder and NYC. So it may depend on where in the US you’re looking. I did consider a move to the US. The biggest deciding factor was the lack of social services, primarily a national health service, but also a welfare state. Partly this was for selfish reasons - I want a safety net for me and my family - but also because I don’t want to see other people suffering. The U.K. is headed towards the same inequality and poor social provision as the US, we’re both already outliers in the western world, but the additional factor of older family here means I’m unlikely to move to the EU (if I can), at least not yet. So if anything, I’m headed in the other direction.
GlennS 5y ago
The fraction of a given population that will voluntarily migrate is pretty low I think. The gap between London and UK-but-not-London salaries is probably pretty comparable to the one between London and San Francisco, but most people won't move a few hundred kilometers to London to get the extra money. The proportion of people willing to move across the ocean, leave behind friends and family, and embrace a new culture, is lower still. But I think the other commenters have it right: when British people dream of living overseas, they dream of Australia, Canada, Spain, and the south of France.
- zimpenfish 5y ago
  > most people won't move a few hundred kilometers to London to get the extra money There are a bunch of logistical problems there though - London house and rent prices, for example, are ludicrous right now.
- mattmanser 5y ago
  There's a huge number of UK expats in the north of France btw, no need to get snobby about the latitude!
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    True but the weather there is almost British, so...
andresp 5y ago
I would have to get a 5x+ opportunity to consider leaving London for the US and I am not even British. I think you have an idea of American exceptionalism which is not really shared by most people in Europe.
pjc50 5y ago
This may be controversial, but I think most of us Brits, even the liberal-internationalist ones, have enough national attachment to the place that it makes it hard to leave. We can tell you the top fifty things wrong with the country if you have the time, but have no intention of quitting just because it's a bit shit. The taint of cynical fatalism is the main thing that distinguishes us from the rest of the Anglosphere. It makes us unable to participate in corporate boosterism. And it often prevents us from taking opportunities. Nowhere on the same level as the Russian national character, but it's definitely an important part of British culture and humor. As is snobbishness about Americans. This dates back to the war and beyond ("over paid and over here" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/united-kingdom/articles/us-servicemen-in-east-anglia/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/unite...), and I suspect this lurks beneath the surface; moving to America would not only mean surrounding yourself with Americans, but admitting that they'd won. (Again, even if you're a liberal-internationalist Brit, Americans are the last foreigners it's OK to be prejudiced against) Having moved from Cambridge to Edinburgh to secure a better salary/house price tradeoff, I get a double dose of this: Scotland is entirely made of people whose ancestors didn't flee the country in a previous economic disaster (either the Highland Clearances, the end of Empire, or Thatcherism), and that biases people against leaving. (I've thought about it myself on a couple of occasions; the first time I was young and single and feared moving to a country where I knew nobody, and the second time was yesterday reading a government statement that we're definitely not running out of gas over the winter)
- deleted 5y ago
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nanna 5y ago
> there's no language barrier As a Brit who's spent a fair amount of time in the Midwest I beg to differ. One example I often came across was that I would interlace what I said with relatively subtle humour, as everyone does back home, but find that instead of conveying multiple meanings people would take everything in flat earnest, often being rather miffed and perplexed. On the other hand Americans would smack me in the face with their gregarious intonations and beaming white teeth whenever they thought they had something funny to say, something that grew more and more irritating and bizarre to me over my stay. It also bothered me that even close friends often struggled to understand my pretty typical London accent, when I've had to guzzle American speech patterns off of screens my entire life. The only British English dialect you could expect anyone to be familiar with was that off of 1960s TV shows like Monty bloody Python. Grrr.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> I have many many foreign or first generation immigrant coworkers, but almost no one British. Because math, plus UK immigrants are a lot less obvious in the US > I'm surprised, because there's no language barrier There's actually some language barrier (UK English is not US English). But its lower than for lots of other places, sure. That just means its a lot faster for a UK immigrant to pass (in speech) for a native. > and a minimal cultural barrier, I’m not really sure that's true. > the vast majority of my coworkers are from places that are much harder to immigrate from Sure, but the vast majority of people who aren't currently in the US are from places that (1) aren't the UK, and (2) have a much bigger income deficit for software engineers than the UK does compared to the US.
sprafa 5y ago
Because they earn well for the UK and living in Europe while earning London tech salaries is pretty dope. You don’t have Uk co workers because they don’t want to leave the country. What’s low paying for you is one of the best paid professions in the Uk.
ben_w 5y ago
I’m a British citizen who moved to Berlin. My move was partly because of the Investigatory Powers Act, partly because of Brexit. I considered several countries, including the USA, Ireland, Canada, New Zealand. My reasons for rejecting the USA were a mixture of political and economic: even the Democrats are uncomfortably right-wing for me; I place a negative value on the 2nd amendment; I would rather walk or cycle than have a car; the legal minimum paid holiday in the EU is 4 weeks[0], plus public holidays, plus (this might just be Germany IDK) paid sick leave and paid compassionate leave and (not that this has yet happened but it is on my bucket list) an enormous amount of paid parental leave; the American healthcare system is terrifying (I am currently getting adverts on Facebook to crowdfund some American strangers’ care, not even sure why I see that ad); every anecdote about American cops (even the experiences of people I know personally) has been negative. I do like several of the things America has done — Big tech, everything NASA — and there is appeal in both the higher salaries and better weather the Bay Area has compared to both the UK and Berlin, and I severely underestimated the difficulty of learning German, but given the nature of my political rejection of the UK is such that even Democrats in control of every branch of DC would still be marginal for me, Trump winning (and on a platform that denigrated migrants, a category I became a member of the moment I left the UK) totally eliminated it. [0] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32003L0088:EN:HTML https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX... Edit: Forgot to mention: when actually visiting the US on four separate one-month visits, I was repeatedly shocked by poor tech adoption, poor quality housing, and the high cost of healthy food options even in supermarkets.

dkdbejwi383 5y ago

> If any UKites have made it to this thread, is be curious to hear why so few people leave for countries with a stronger and higher paying tech sector? Where do you suggest? I only speak English to any decent level, German to a barely conversational degree, and given brexit, the right to work in a German speaking country is not a given. I sure as hell am not ever going to live in the (no offence) right-wing dystopia of the USA. That leaves me with what? Canada or Australia? Both far away, with equally “bad” salaries and far away from my roots?

lostdog 5y ago
I did mean the USA, but now see that it was implicit (sorry. I probably enforced a bunch of stereotypes right there). I'm very curious if "it's a right-wing dystopia" is a common viewpoint, and whether it comes from direct experience, or just reading about the US. (Not disagreeing at all).
- Computeiful 5y ago
  I'd say "right-wing dystopia" is putting it too strongly. The USA is definitely further right than the UK, but the main perception I'd say is that the politics in the USA are toxic, highly polarised and all-consuming (very easy to get sucked into it and hard to get out). But I don't think that's a surprising perception given that for the last 6 years, the news we get about the USA across the pond is almost exclusively politically-orientated.
- pavlov 5y ago
  I'm a European living in the US. It's not (yet) a right-wing dystopia, but the political system is clearly teetering at a point of collapse. The last presidential election was barely certified. Several people were killed in the national parliament building during an insurrection stoked by a candidate. Lies about election security are being spread to undermine public trust. Those are things that you'd expect to read about elections in some African country, not a Western democracy. Will they be able to certify the next election with only a handful of people killed? I don't know, but I'm planning to get out of here before that.
- jwdunne 5y ago
  I think it is. Whenever I suggested I’d like to move out to the US one day to work on a start up or in the healthy tech scenes, most recoil as if I’m out of my mind. After seeing the number of massacres/shoot outs, losing an online friend to gun crime, healthcare bankruptcy and seeing Trump get voted in after he mocked a disabled journalist, I too decided I was out of my mind. I’m not sure if I’m welcome anyway - I’d fair better being a white male but that shouldn’t matter. It just doesn’t look good. I guess Boris was voted in over here but still… it’s bad but not quite the same level. I do okay on what I get, I guess.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  As an outsider what I don't like about the US is less the politics of particular candidates (I guess that's the point of politics and having multiple competing parties - people vote for those with whom they align with) but the "dynamics" and people's approach to politics. Everything seems politicized to a much higher extent than in the UK or European countries. As a recent example, masks and vaccines are seen as political messages by (seemingly) a lot of people.
exolymph 5y ago
Meanwhile, in the UK you can be arrested for insulting someone on Twitter.
- pertymcpert 5y ago
  What do you think they're referring to by "right wing dystopia"? Do you think your reply was an effective counterpoint?
  - exolymph 5y ago
    Restricting speech is a hallmark of authoritarianism. That is what I meant to imply.
    - pertymcpert 5y ago
      I think you're incorrectly conflating right wing ideology with authoritarianism.

klelatti 5y ago

Not sure about the ‘extremely low salaries’ bit but don’t forget that in London for example finance can pay very well indeed so I suspect that lots of potential tech emigrees end up working in banking.

als0 5y ago
On average tech workers are paid more in London because the rent prices are crippling.

Computeiful 5y ago

UKite here, active in the London fintech scene. Everything I say is based purely on my perception of the situation. Anecdotally, I see more people in this sector moving to places such as Canada, Australia and New Zealand than to the USA. I think there is a perception here that while salaries might be higher in the USA, there are hidden costs both financially and socially (such as health insurance payments, getting to grips with the American "way of life" etc). The American "way of life" in particular is not seen as "glamorous" (again anecdotally) and I think most view it as a bit of a step down, while the other countries I mentioned are viewed as a step up. Afaik, there are more UK citizens living in Australia than all the rest of Europe combined.

mmerlin 5y ago
Perth has the highest per capita percentage migration from the UK, compared with the eastern states of Australia. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perth#Ancestry_and_immigration https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perth#Ancestry_and_immigrati...
- iso1210 5y ago
  Perth feels a lot nearer to the UK (especially with the non-stop flight from London, 17 hours vs 24 with a layover to Sydney) than the rest of the continent. It's 7 hours ahead rather than 9 which I think makes a difference too.
zz865 5y ago
I moved to the US from the UK and I think it was a mistake. The first 5 years were great now my kids have settled I feel kinda stuck. I didn't mind working non stop and dedicating life to work, but its a drag.
- mixmastamyk 5y ago
  When you get some experience and seniority is usually isn’t too bad. All my jobs would extend vacation when I asked, even if some portion were unpaid.
- 5y ago

walshemj 5y ago

Science and Tech professions have much lower status in the UK basically we are a source of cheap well trained English speaking Engineers.

pydry 5y ago

UK contractor rates can rival US salaries - not equivalent but close enough to be comfortable. That said I know of a fair few people who emigrated.

ca01an 5y ago

UK salaries are a lot lower than US salaries but every country has lower salaries than the US and the UK fares better than most. I would guess this means brits have less incentive to emigrate than people from India or somewhere were salaries are even lower than the UK. It’s also quite difficult to move to the US from the UK, a lot easier to move to Canada, Australia, New Zealand or the rest of Europe.

sprafa 5y ago
There are also virtually equally exciting opportunities, I think. Deepmind has never moved from london, and google essentially just built their HQ around them in kings cross.
- aix1 5y ago
  The new DeepMind building and the new Google building are close to each other, yes. However, G building their HQ around DM is quite a claim.
- disgruntledphd2 5y ago
  Google have had a London office for at least fifteen years, well before they acquired Deepmind.

jon-wood 5y ago

Extremely low compared to what? I’m in a competitively paid position as a principle developer for a large London technology company. Not renowned for high salaries, but also not bottom of the market. Most people I know in basically any other industry make less money pre-tax than I have left over after tax, deductions, rent, and bills. I’m sure I could find things to do with more money, just as anyone can, but I definitely hit the point a while ago where more money would significantly improve my level of happiness. Given that, why would I pack up my entire life and start over in another country?

zz865 5y ago

Compared to SF/NY salaries are low. Compared to Chicago/Denver/Houston UK tech salaries are probably similar. Traditionally the big banks in the city paid very highly but since the financial collapse pay has stagnated. A low level of respect follows the money. London has a lot of traders, big company execs, politicians, lawyers, accountants etc they all pay more than IT.

michaelt 5y ago

> If any UKites have made it to this thread, is be curious to hear why so few people leave for countries with a stronger and higher paying tech sector? First of all, working in tech in the UK you can make $130,000 which is 3-4x the median annual salary. Very few Brits would describe that is "extremely low". That's enough money to have a few kids, a wife who doesn't work, and a pretty decent lifestyle. Why move a 10-hour flight away from all my friends and family, just because I could earn enough to drive a Lamborghini instead of a Lotus Elise?

nodejs_rulez_1 5y ago
> First of all, working in tech in the UK you can make $130,000 which is 3-4x the median annual salary. That's not a common compensation at all. I think USA gives way more choices, at the very least finance, big tech and start-ups (that actually offer noticeable equity, unlike UK).
- fy20 5y ago
  I've been outside the UK for a few years, but when I was there £80k for a senior in London was fairly standard, and I had recruiters emailing me for £100k roles. That's the pre-tax salary; getting some extra compensation or perks would be somewhat expected, but not at US levels. Outside London it varies a lot though... I'm from the South West and £50k would be a good salary there. But that's no different from some places in the US. If you live in a small town, of course there is less opportunity. But most people who know their worth become contractors. I've had to work with people on £500/day who I wouldn't even trust to run the tests properly. Selling yourself as a "senior <insert hot language of the day> developer" you can easily command a few hundred more. And then there's fintech which goes even higher. In the UK there isn't that much difference in security from being an employee vs a contractor (you still have state health insurance at the end of the day). Even without the higher rates, the tax benefits alone make it very beneficial, which is why IR35 regulations have been brought in. I know someone who has a company car (Porsche Taycan) which they use to drive to the company yatch...
  - iso1210 5y ago

erdo 5y ago

Personally speaking (and I say this as a Brit who really likes the US, and Americans in general whenever I meet them). I haven't tried to move to the US because of the slightly distasteful situation in terms of education, healthcare and social security, car dependence, weirdly low holiday allowance, Foxnews, QAnon, an alarming gun lobby, and the current republican party in general is quite quite shocking to me in it's transparent gaslighting, racism and anti-democratic (small d) tendencies. The UK has its fair share of opportunistic charlatans too of course, ahem. That's why I now live in mainland Europe, get great health care, fast trains, fast internet, good work life balance etc though I probably earn less than I would if I was in the US There are plenty of good reasons to move [to the US] too of course, and I do know quite a few who have (including my sister who loves it, and I suspect is never going to move back to rainy Britain) There might be another reason you don't see many brit developers in the US though, we probably just don't produce that many of them. I worked in London for 20 years and the typical dev team had less than 50% Brits in it even there. Looking at Hollywood we seem to produce a lot more actors that can do a passable American accent than developers.

dboreham 5y ago
Hmm...I've worked in silicon valley (either there, or remote) for 25 years and have constantly run into brits. The holiday thing isn't quite what it seems because while brits will write down the 1/2 day they took off to go to the dentist, Americans do not. The racist/fascist thing is concerning, but the UK doesn't look so good these days either (Brexit, Boris, ...) US seems to be doing like Churchill said : Always Do the Right Thing — After Exhausting All the Alternatives
- timomax2 5y ago
  Brits in white collar jobs don't take holiday to go to the dentist.
- denton-scratch 5y ago
  Brexit is neither fascist nor (intrinsically) racist. Boris certainly has some racist ministers working for him, and I don't doubt that he's casually racist; but then most people are, to some extent. I worked in the US for a year. I'll never go back. I saw too many black kids lying on their faces by the side of the highway, with cops standing over them pointing pistols at them. I never saw a carload of white kids getting that treatment. This was a daily experience (and I was only on the highway for about 10 minutes daily). It's completely normal. I was regularly told that when I leave my home, I shouldn't walk past Nth St., because that's a "bad neighbourhood" (i.e. black). My experience of living in US was restricted to Richmond, VA. I've been to other parts, but not lived in them. Sure, UK cops are racist too. But somehow the US cops seem to get a free pass - it's almost as if they're hired to be racists and bullies.

dukeyukey 5y ago

> Everything I read on the internet suggests that UK tech salaries are extremely low, and that the profession has a low level of respect overall. For salaries, we're better paid than the vast majority of white-collar workers to the point it becomes a running joke. I once got asked by a standup comedian doing a set what my job is, I said software dev, and he answered "blimey you must be fuckin loaded". We're not at the level of the US, but we're probably higher than most of Western Europe, at least after CoL (e.g. https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/uk-developers-best-paid-europe-2021-02/ https://www.electronicsweekly.com/news/business/uk-developer...). It can be tricky to compare salaries across countries, but I can't imagine the massive amounts of European developers came to London for the climate. As for respect, I don't really know what you mean. Beyond professions like nurses/social workers, I (and I hope most people) don't really base respect on profession. We probably get more professional respect in the workplace, we get away with stuff the other departments definitely don't, but personal respect? Just doesn't come into it, unless you're a social worker or nurse or something.

erdo 5y ago
I think I might know what the OP means by respect. You see it in Thai dev recruitment ads, they sometimes mandate developers to be 27 years old or younger, the implication seems to be that if you are still a developer by the time you're 28, then there must be something wrong with you. It can be seen as something akin to an admin role, for which more than two years experience would be pointless. I never experienced that in London, quite the opposite, devs have a mystic status as the person who probably earns more than anyone else, doing something no one understands and still wears a t-shirt to work. I do see the low respect attitude in Paris a little though (or perhaps it's simply budget constraints). The best development is the cheapest, for instance there are a lot more react native gigs here where they want one person to do both an iOS and an Android app, and the contract is for 3 months. I don't touch those with a barge pole because they'll end up with junk that barely works of course

digianarchist 5y ago

I left the UK because of the dire salaries. £25,000 South East England £30,000 North West England £45,000 London (last offer in UK I didn't take) Moved to Canada £60,000 Toronto £75,000 Toronto £85,000 Toronto £105,000 base £35,000 RSUs Toronto

1_player 5y ago

> If any UKites have made it to this thread, is be curious to hear why so few people leave for countries with a stronger and higher paying tech sector? If by "countries with higher paying tech sector" you mean the USA, with all due respect and without going into a huge discussion, I much prefer staying in UK, or the European continent in general. There is more to life, happiness, comfort, long-term goals and self-realisation than the number of dollars deposited in my bank account by my employer. With remote working and the Internet the idea of relocating where your job is, is quite antiquated, at least for my standards. If I really need the money, I'll try and find a way to get paid US salaries while living in the EU. As a software engineer working 100% remote and living in London I get paid 3-4x the average London salary, which is enough _for me_ to live more than comfortably and I don't really feel I need to earn $500k a year to improve my quality of life. I can't afford a private jet, but I don't need one, either.

tudorizer 5y ago
100% my thoughts too. US seems to have a lot of hidden costs , plus the value of the $ dropped quite a bit in recent times.
- ta988 5y ago
  If you want to live in a big city yes cost can be high. But it can also be extremely low if you choose to live in less dense areas.

cameronh90 5y ago

Extremely low? Not as high as SF, sure, but easily top 5% for the country after a few years experience. Salary aside, many people find life a lot more enjoyable here. I know plenty of people who've worked for a period in the US and come back, as well as myself having done a stint for a US company for a while. US corporate working culture is rather different to here. Here, if you don't take 4+ weeks holiday, your manager will have a word with you for working too much. Complaining about being back at work after a holiday is expected. At the end of the day, you log off and go home, and you don't think about work again until the next morning except in exceptional cases. Everyone knows and accepts that work is work, not the point of your life. 3PM Friday drinks is still a part of the culture in many companies, as is knocking off early on a nice day and going to the pub. Obviously it's not like this in every job (particularly low salary or menial), but every job I and most of my acquaintances have had has been vaguely like this. Then of course there's safety, environment, toxic politics, healthcare, etc. plus generally just liking what you're familiar with. I love the USA, but there are things that are hard to get used to, like car-only suburbs, jaywalking laws, beaches that close at night or are privately owned, rules against outdoor drinking... I also find UK tech has less of an ageism problem than the USA. People sometimes return here after they start to find their age is causing problems finding work in the US.

piker 5y ago
> US corporate working culture is rather different to here. Here, if you don't take 4+ weeks holiday, your manager will have a word with you for working too much. Complaining about being back at work after a holiday is expected. At the end of the day, you log off and go home, and you don't think about work again until the next morning except in exceptional cases. Everyone knows and accepts that work is work, not the point of your life. 3PM Friday drinks is still a part of the culture in many companies, as is knocking off early on a nice day and going to the pub. This is a classic view in London's legal industry. In truth, solicitors in London work as hard as New York corporate lawyers and earn 25%-33% of the pay. Yes, they do tend to take more vacation days and don't have to pay for health insurance, but the health insurance component is made up for taxes and otherwise vacation days are about the only difference.
- 5y ago

lostdog 5y ago

[Thanks to all the brits for educating me! I did not realize there where bands of SWE pay that were relatively well compensated. I have also learned a lot about perceptions of the U.S. Later tonight, when I don the armor I constructed from discarded soda bottles, and leave my home storage locker to scavenge the dumpster scraps from a Kardashian's birthday party, I will reflect on the downsides of Americans' societal choices.]

randomsearch 5y ago

One datapoint fwiw, but someone recently asked me why I hadn’t moved to the US. I reflected on it a while. First point, I’ve travelled a lot to the US and would definitely not live in SF due to the insane levels of inequality and homelessness. I also like diversity and think it’s a competitive advantage in some domains, SF seems to be a bit of a monoculture. But I do like cities like Boulder and NYC. So it may depend on where in the US you’re looking. I did consider a move to the US. The biggest deciding factor was the lack of social services, primarily a national health service, but also a welfare state. Partly this was for selfish reasons - I want a safety net for me and my family - but also because I don’t want to see other people suffering. The U.K. is headed towards the same inequality and poor social provision as the US, we’re both already outliers in the western world, but the additional factor of older family here means I’m unlikely to move to the EU (if I can), at least not yet. So if anything, I’m headed in the other direction.

GlennS 5y ago

The fraction of a given population that will voluntarily migrate is pretty low I think. The gap between London and UK-but-not-London salaries is probably pretty comparable to the one between London and San Francisco, but most people won't move a few hundred kilometers to London to get the extra money. The proportion of people willing to move across the ocean, leave behind friends and family, and embrace a new culture, is lower still. But I think the other commenters have it right: when British people dream of living overseas, they dream of Australia, Canada, Spain, and the south of France.

zimpenfish 5y ago
> most people won't move a few hundred kilometers to London to get the extra money There are a bunch of logistical problems there though - London house and rent prices, for example, are ludicrous right now.
mattmanser 5y ago
There's a huge number of UK expats in the north of France btw, no need to get snobby about the latitude!
- raverbashing 5y ago
  True but the weather there is almost British, so...

andresp 5y ago

I would have to get a 5x+ opportunity to consider leaving London for the US and I am not even British. I think you have an idea of American exceptionalism which is not really shared by most people in Europe.

pjc50 5y ago

This may be controversial, but I think most of us Brits, even the liberal-internationalist ones, have enough national attachment to the place that it makes it hard to leave. We can tell you the top fifty things wrong with the country if you have the time, but have no intention of quitting just because it's a bit shit. The taint of cynical fatalism is the main thing that distinguishes us from the rest of the Anglosphere. It makes us unable to participate in corporate boosterism. And it often prevents us from taking opportunities. Nowhere on the same level as the Russian national character, but it's definitely an important part of British culture and humor. As is snobbishness about Americans. This dates back to the war and beyond ("over paid and over here" https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/united-kingdom/articles/us-servicemen-in-east-anglia/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/europe/unite...), and I suspect this lurks beneath the surface; moving to America would not only mean surrounding yourself with Americans, but admitting that they'd won. (Again, even if you're a liberal-internationalist Brit, Americans are the last foreigners it's OK to be prejudiced against) Having moved from Cambridge to Edinburgh to secure a better salary/house price tradeoff, I get a double dose of this: Scotland is entirely made of people whose ancestors didn't flee the country in a previous economic disaster (either the Highland Clearances, the end of Empire, or Thatcherism), and that biases people against leaving. (I've thought about it myself on a couple of occasions; the first time I was young and single and feared moving to a country where I knew nobody, and the second time was yesterday reading a government statement that we're definitely not running out of gas over the winter)

deleted 5y ago
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nanna 5y ago

> there's no language barrier As a Brit who's spent a fair amount of time in the Midwest I beg to differ. One example I often came across was that I would interlace what I said with relatively subtle humour, as everyone does back home, but find that instead of conveying multiple meanings people would take everything in flat earnest, often being rather miffed and perplexed. On the other hand Americans would smack me in the face with their gregarious intonations and beaming white teeth whenever they thought they had something funny to say, something that grew more and more irritating and bizarre to me over my stay. It also bothered me that even close friends often struggled to understand my pretty typical London accent, when I've had to guzzle American speech patterns off of screens my entire life. The only British English dialect you could expect anyone to be familiar with was that off of 1960s TV shows like Monty bloody Python. Grrr.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> I have many many foreign or first generation immigrant coworkers, but almost no one British. Because math, plus UK immigrants are a lot less obvious in the US > I'm surprised, because there's no language barrier There's actually some language barrier (UK English is not US English). But its lower than for lots of other places, sure. That just means its a lot faster for a UK immigrant to pass (in speech) for a native. > and a minimal cultural barrier, I’m not really sure that's true. > the vast majority of my coworkers are from places that are much harder to immigrate from Sure, but the vast majority of people who aren't currently in the US are from places that (1) aren't the UK, and (2) have a much bigger income deficit for software engineers than the UK does compared to the US.

sprafa 5y ago

Because they earn well for the UK and living in Europe while earning London tech salaries is pretty dope. You don’t have Uk co workers because they don’t want to leave the country. What’s low paying for you is one of the best paid professions in the Uk.

ben_w 5y ago

I’m a British citizen who moved to Berlin. My move was partly because of the Investigatory Powers Act, partly because of Brexit. I considered several countries, including the USA, Ireland, Canada, New Zealand. My reasons for rejecting the USA were a mixture of political and economic: even the Democrats are uncomfortably right-wing for me; I place a negative value on the 2nd amendment; I would rather walk or cycle than have a car; the legal minimum paid holiday in the EU is 4 weeks[0], plus public holidays, plus (this might just be Germany IDK) paid sick leave and paid compassionate leave and (not that this has yet happened but it is on my bucket list) an enormous amount of paid parental leave; the American healthcare system is terrifying (I am currently getting adverts on Facebook to crowdfund some American strangers’ care, not even sure why I see that ad); every anecdote about American cops (even the experiences of people I know personally) has been negative. I do like several of the things America has done — Big tech, everything NASA — and there is appeal in both the higher salaries and better weather the Bay Area has compared to both the UK and Berlin, and I severely underestimated the difficulty of learning German, but given the nature of my political rejection of the UK is such that even Democrats in control of every branch of DC would still be marginal for me, Trump winning (and on a platform that denigrated migrants, a category I became a member of the moment I left the UK) totally eliminated it. [0] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:32003L0088:EN:HTML https://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX... Edit: Forgot to mention: when actually visiting the US on four separate one-month visits, I was repeatedly shocked by poor tech adoption, poor quality housing, and the high cost of healthy food options even in supermarkets.