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Linus (the "tech tips" one) said something that sticks in my mind: "The only reason other companies can't do this - and Framework proved it - is because they do

Linus (the "tech tips" one) said something that sticks in my mind: "The only reason other companies can't do this - and Framework proved it - is because they don't care."

epistasis 5y ago
Well, the other reason is that customers don't care either. I certainly don't. The last desktop build I made 5 years ago hasn't had a single component changed in that entire time.
- Grimm1 5y ago
  Well no, you and people like you don’t, but as evidenced by all the people buying this there is a segment of the market that clearly does.
- bserge 5y ago
  I've only had laptops for over a decade. And I had system board failures. Honestly, I'd rage if I had to throw it out together with the perfectly good CPU, GPU/VRAM and maybe half the RAM and pay for a used replacement board with all of those integrated. Or what, buy a rework station and risk damaging them or having them work improperly due to shit soldering skills? I guess I could learn to fix the board itself. But that's pretty hard, there are no schematics, no components for most laptops, failures are not evident and one component can lead to a cascade of failures across the board. A used board was $100. Now they're ~$500 because there's a CPU and GPU there. My next computer will be a desktop in a handcrafted case (I'm also trying to fit a Li-Ion battery/UPS between the PSU and components).
  - y4mi 5y ago
    Why handcrafted instead of the framework laptop? Are you just itching to do that project, or is there some other issue you had with getting the laptop from them?
    - bserge 5y ago
      It's more future proof. And performance is unmatched. Handcrafted because I want the smallest, lightest microATX case. Should I share the design? I have it ready in SolidWorks. I will still need a laptop away from home and/or as a portable display, that'll be one of my old 17 inchers or the cheapest one I can get (Haswell gen lol).
  - bertjk 5y ago
    > (I'm also trying to fit a Li-Ion battery/UPS between the PSU and components) This should totally be a thing. I wish it was a thing. It doesn't even have to provide hours of runtime, just needs to be enough to handle the occasional stupid California brownout.
    - bserge 5y ago
      Yeah, it is the most efficient way to power everything (no conversion losses). 30 minutes is enough tbh. The battery will fit in an empty PSU case, I just need some custom cables and connectors for the passthrough, my biggest problem is charging and switchover. Looks like I will need a custom board for that. I thought it'd be easier heh
    - jhickok 5y ago
      Out of curiosity, wouldn't a conventional consumer UPS take care of that?
      - callmejoe 5y ago
        yeah. but it's more efficient to have the battery be on the output side of a PSU, since that's gonna be DC.
        topspin 5y ago
        You might want to reconsider. I've found a separate UPS to be invaluable because, as you'll find, just getting power to the box is not sufficient. Other devices need power as well, especially network switches and displays.
- topspin 5y ago
  "customers don't care either" People care about Right To Repair; that's why the FTC has been pressured into action recently on the matter (not that I entertain any hope that that bunch of bought-and-paid-for bureaucrats will actually achieve anything.) Framework has blown a vast hole through the false arguments offered in opposition. One must simply care. That's all it takes. Every manufacturer that has opposed RTR has the means and talent to do at least as well has Framework has done, and probably better. They just don't care. Thankfully the vestigial remains of our free market are sufficient to run the experiment.
  - epistasis 5y ago
    Do customers care though? Perhaps customer advocates do. And that's probably the best place for it, since it's such a niche and wonky idea. And that's why "free markets" will never solve this. (And that's whether the "free" in free markets means freedom from regulations, or freedom for people to participate in the market). IMHO this is why the European system of strong regulatory bodies tends to work better than the US system of "wait for a customer to experience damages, then recoup through the courts, and then the companies learn their lesson."
    - kaibee 5y ago
      > and then the companies learn their lesson. * analysts consider whether the cost > profit, if not then continue doing the same thing as before.
    - topspin 5y ago
      And yet here we are; despite the 446e6 strong market place the EU supposedly represents their regulatory power has not delivered what we see here. No, instead we have an American company motivated by only the belief that their product will succeed in the market kicking open the door.
      - epistasis 5y ago
        Well the question is do you want every laptop to have the customizability of Framework's laptops, or should there instead be a minimum bar set for warranty/repairability? I think the second is probably what's needed, and the EU has been better both at imposing standards and ensuring warranties and repairability.
- CivBase 5y ago
  The only a tiny minority of people probably care about the upgradability of their laptop. Many many more probably care about the repairability of their laptop, though.
  - AlexandrB 5y ago
    I think you're right. Many people "care" about repairability in the market sense of getting pissed off that a keyboard replacement costs >$500 for some reason. The right kind of marketing could bring them onboard.
- 1MachineElf 5y ago
  In an alternate universe where the Framework concept was commonplace, you might say the same thing about a laptop built 5 years ago. Framework means you can custom-build it, just like your desktop. Reparability aside, that alone is a milestone.
- squeaky-clean 5y ago
  But imagine if your next desktop build required you to also throw away your SSD, monitor, keyboard, mouse, and speakers. You can also re-use a case in future builds, and re-use a high quality PSU in future builds. I also don't really care to replace individual components in my systems, but being able to upgrade laptop hardware without throwing away the chasis and storage seems pretty nice to me.
  - epistasis 5y ago
    My next desktop build will require entirely new parts, and the prior build will be demoted to other uses, or given to someone else who has a better use for it. As a whole unit, it still has utility. If I scavenge an essential piece, all the rest go to waste. If it were a big energy hog (it's not), then it may make sense to put it out to pasture and scavenge the parts for others. The exception is my keyboard, is like my toothbrush, if toothbrushes could last for two decades. That I will keep and move to the new computer, as keyboard technology is not advancing. For laptops, I see even less utility for upgrades than for a desktop, but perhaps that's just me.
    - alpaca128 5y ago
      Easy upgrades mean easy repair. The opposite is also true. You can move your keyboard to a new computer because you are able to detach it without melting half the device with a heat gun. With laptops it's not that easy. When the MacBook keyboards broke all the time a few years ago, a keyboard replacement meant also replacing the speakers, battery and touchpad. Not for any technical reason, but because Apple doesn't like screws. The MS Surface Pro and Surface Laptop couldn't be repaired by anyone, not even MS themselves - if a single $20-30 part fails you have to spend $1000 again. Doesn't sound like a great deal if you ask me. You might not need or want upgrades and maybe you're lucky and nothing ever breaks. But having the choice only comes with upsides.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Whereas any dating of when my last desktop build was would be deceptive because they're replaced piece by piece. The closest occasion I can give is when I went from one to two desktops, but even then half the guts of the one I had before went into the new case, and were replaced in the old case with new purchases. I mean, I've met people that only wear underwear once or twice before throwing it away, too, but I wouldn't say that's normal. People would generally rather replace a drive, processor, ram, or screen than spend 10x as much on an entirely new system. They don't because the manufacturers make that option difficult or impossible. People didn't love VCR/TV combos, and people don't love this. Manufacturers love this.
- GordonS 5y ago
  It's not just about upgrading components, but also about having more choice during initial specification. It's a real PITA trying to find laptops that have almost everything you want, and inevitably you need to make multiple compromises. And it's also about replacing broken components without having to ditch the whole laptop. I'm really excited about how Framework could potentially shake up the whole industry!
  - CoolGuySteve 5y ago
    Yes, this exactly. For the past year I've been trying to buy a Ryzen 5800u with at least 32GB of RAM and it has been fucking impossible. As soon as Framework releases an AMD model I'm on board.
    - kaladin-jasnah 5y ago
      Second this. If they do release an AMD model, that (or maybe a ThinkPad) will be my next laptop.
      - KajMagnus 5y ago
        I've also been looking for a Ryzen that can be upgraded to 32 or 64 RAM :- )
  - zepto 5y ago
    > I'm really excited about how Framework could potentially shake up the whole industry! It won’t. The industry used to be like that back in the day before Apple proved that most people don’t want too many choices.
    - markkanof 5y ago
      I'm not pushing back too hard on this idea, because in general you are likely right about almost anything, that most people don't care that much. However, I'm not sure that Apple really proved that most people don't want too many choices. The choice to buy an Apple computer could be for any number of reasons. Like for example, I really like macOS and the integration between my iPhone and my MacBook for things like iMessage. Anytime I've bought an Apple computer it's felt like I have to compromise on the hardware options, but I still do it because I like other aspects of the overall ecosystem.
- webmobdev 5y ago
  That's only the half of it - everyone cares when they have to repair their device. You start to feel the unfairness of it when companies charge you exorbitant prices for common components because they've designed it in a non-standardised way for that particular device. Or when you face the reality of (for e.g.) having to pay to replace the whole board because of a malfunctioning soldered RAM or soldered SSD, and realise how shortsighted it was to buy a device that is designed not to be repaired.
- jonshariat 5y ago
  I wouldn't be interested in fixing myself but if I know that I can have my laptop repaired or upgraded for cheap, that would be amazing.
- simion314 5y ago
  >The last desktop build I made 5 years ago hasn't had a single component changed in that entire tim I upgraded my monitor and changed 2 keyboards(I am hard on them) with a laptop if you fuck your keyboard you probably have to use an external one or hope that replacing your laptop keyboard is cheap enough and you can find a spare.
- hkt 5y ago
  A friend of mine has a fairphone and broke its screen while he was staying with me. The fairphone is quite similar insofar as it is designed to be long lived and user serviceable. He ordered a screen, next day delivery, and changed it himself for about £60. Users care!
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- devwastaken 5y ago
  You will care next time you have to build one.
- topspin 5y ago
  "The last desktop build I made 5 years ago" A desktop you built using standardized components you sourced from a competitive market with a plethora of alternatives specifically designed for easy assembly. Should any component fail you can obtain a replacement and perform the repair yourself. Doubtless these affordances are a part of why you chose to assemble you're machine yourself. You do indeed care. The inability to extrapolate this to laptop machines seems obtuse.
  - epistasis 5y ago
    No, I still don't care at all about the customizability. I did it mostly because I had to use Windows but didn't want to deal with an OEM's crap ware. The customizability was actually an impediment to get what I wanted: a box. I don't doubt that a huge market of interchangeable parts made this easier. But it's important to separate the ends from the means here, when it comes to customer concerns. The customers that want customizability and upgradability are a vanishingly small slice of customers. (Just as are the ones who want to run Linux, and that small slice does include me.)
    - topspin 5y ago
      "I did it mostly because I had to use Windows but didn't want to deal with an OEM's crap ware." Can you not imagine the vast market of people that might want a laptop not loaded with OEM crap ware? Because that is exactly what could emerge if Framework manages to establish a market of commodity mobile components.
      - epistasis 5y ago
        The simpler route would be to have an OEM that didn't install crap ware, rather than having to order a basket of parts and assemble them. I went the basket route because it required less research for me, because I just wanted to get to my end result as quickly as possible. Grander goals about establishing ecosystems that serve other eventual end goals is not the way that most money is spent. (Though I do spend my money that way in other areas, such as with climate action, the PC market does not matter that much to me.)
- akiselev 5y ago
  > The last desktop build I made 5 years ago hasn't had a single component changed in that entire time. My last desktop build is still going strong nine years later. Swapped out a broken motherboard, upgraded to OCed DDR3, and stuck in a PCIe card for NVMe: good as new.
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    Graphics card I bought 5 years ago - 1060 6GB - is currently worth pretty much the same as it was then, despite the fact that it's used.
- wccrawford 5y ago
  Some don't, sure, but many do. I care. I often swap out parts. My family and friends care, because I help them swap out parts when needed, especially during critical failures when they need it working ASAP and can't risk some corporation formatting the hard drive for no reason. And my coworkers care because they're fellow techies and do this stuff, too.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- caeril 5y ago
  > I certainly don't. Reminder that Apple isn't the problem. Their customers are. I know movie quotes are seriously lowbrow for this audience, but somewhat relevant here, and correct: "That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy." Not to Godwin the thread, but this absurd apologia for anti-freedom products from the standpoint of convenience and apathy reminds me of the old quip about Hitler making the trains run on time. I hope a decade from now you love the soul-crushing Snow Crash-esque dystopia your choices will have created, because you will have absolutely no moral authority to complain about it.
  - leppr 5y ago
    The problem is that for most people there are no clear incentives to making the "good" choices in those matters, while there are many incentives to make the "bad" choice, like gaining an edge in the local competitive market by virtue of a more efficient tool. Prototypical tragedy of the commons.
- NotPractical 5y ago
  Your desktop doesn't have a battery in it, like laptops do. Batteries are the one component in a laptop that is guaranteed to degrade over the course of a few years and eventually make the product unusable. The battery is glued in on the MacBook Pro, so it will eventually become useless. It's as simple as that, and very unfortunate. It's nice to have the option to upgrade the other parts too, though, and why not expect this, if it's clearly possible, as the Framework laptop shows?
- christophilus 5y ago
  My laptop has a single thunderbolt port. I use it for my 5k monitor. If that port goes, I need to get a new laptop. (That new laptop will be the Framework laptop, if they offer a 15" hi-DPI option.) If my laptop was a Framework laptop, I'd just need to buy a pretty inexpensive new port and swap it out. It's a pretty big deal, in my opinion.
  - concinds 5y ago
    USB-C ports (the "internal" ones) are soldered to the motherbord on Framework, unlike on MacBooks, FYI
- sixothree 5y ago
  I am very happy for you to have such good luck.
ashtonkem 5y ago
That’s almost always the reality when a company “can’t” do something.
fabianhjr 5y ago
They care about keeping new laptop sales up and repairable anything goes against that.
bitwize 5y ago
Linus has now invested in Framework, which constrains how he is allowed to review laptops on his channel because of the possibility of a conflict of interest. He says it's worth it to support what he believes is a great company with an awesome product vision.
- jagger27 5y ago
  Linus has shown his flagrant disregard for impartiality or any form of integrity over and over again. Look through the LTT back catalogue and you’ll see that Intel is big sponsor of theirs. The fact that he gives “honest” reviews of Intel products doesn’t magically make it okay. You’d never see Dr. Ian Cutress of AnandTech or Steve from GamersNexus pulling this shit. Of course he makes much more money than both of them combined. Make no mistake that he is an entertainer and a businessman.
  - easton 5y ago
    There is a conflict of interest there, but as a counterpoint, pretty much every time he does a build video it seems like he picks AMD (at least, post Ryzen).
    - onli 5y ago
      Even now with the Framework laptop said he would like to help with making an AMD version possible.
  - onli 5y ago
    GamersNexus is all the time reviewing stuff positively and then taking on the same enterprise as sponsor. They can do that because their viewers know that they will still be very critical with the next product. LTT also really always had the proper balance. Sponsored reviews are marked, sponsored segments are marked, and they are not holding back on negative reviews for long term channel sponsors. They totally ripped into Intel again and again for the failure to compete with AMD, and at the same time have Intel sponsor new hardware upgrades for team members in a sponsored mini-series. Totally fair.
m463 5y ago
I would clarify that - it is not in their best interests to care. what they want is: To sell you a laptop with a current cpu and memory. If you are "price insensitive" they will allow you to get a better cpu or more memory for a significant upcharge. next year, they want: To sell you a laptop with a current cpu and memory. They do not want you upgrading the cpu or memory yourself They do not want you to add next-year's cpu yourself next year.
- qorrect 5y ago
  Yeah came here to say this, I think what they meant to say is "It cant be done at the profit margins we want" not "It cant be done".
- conradfr 5y ago
  I wanted to buy a new laptop last year and was shocked: 1/ A lot of them (most?) had 8Go of RAM. 16Go is rare and 32Go even more. What year is it?! 2/ Most have soldiered RAM without an additional slot.
  - dwaite 5y ago
    Soldered ram significantly decreases repair incidents (from unseated laptop ram) and increases runtime reliability (from direct electrical contact of said ram). It allows for the machine to ship with an optimized ram configuration (lane count, timing). It also reduces the part cost and device footprint.
    - donmcronald 5y ago
      Most RAM comes with a "lifetime" warranty. IMO if the soldered RAM is so great, they should give me a lifetime guarantee they'll replace the MB if the soldered RAM fails. Then I'd be ok with it.
      - dwaite 5y ago
        In the sense that products which do not support third-party repairability should generally have a higher first party warranty requirement, I agree.
slabity 5y ago
Another quote from Linus that's relevant: "Imagine being an engineer at a company at Apple, and it being your job to design the mechanism that makes it so that machine cannot start up unless the chassis is fully sealed. Apple spent actual fucking money making sure that product would not work unless it is in the exact chassis they shipped it in." That goes beyond not caring.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  Where is that quote from? I wasn't able to find it via Google. Anyway, a computer that refuses to turn on after been tampered with does have its uses, particularly if your threat model is government secret services.
  - CubityFirst 5y ago
    From his latest video where he disclosed / explained his philosphy in investing into Framework. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg
  - trutannus 5y ago
    > threat model is government secret services Realistically, if your threat model is government secret services, and you're using unmodified consumer grade electronics, then you're in 'danger' no matter what. You can't effectively mitigate a threat at the state level using resources produced under the watchful eye of the same state. All they have to do is ask the producer to swap out the device they gave you with a device that comes compromised out of the box. And that's assuming the tech is perfect. Most likely they just hire someone to defeat the countermeasures. However many resources Apple has, I assure you even the most janky state has more.
    - javajosh 5y ago
      Special hardware seems 007 childish to me. What's better, having a high-tech tricked-out phone/laptop, or to just have a random stock Android with an inoffensive sim card in it? It seems obvious to me that if you're being targeted, tailed and tracked and probed, you've already lost.
agumonkey 5y ago
This effect exists all across society. Some culture seems to drive laziness / selfishness across the (irl) social network. Every would care but nobody can pull the whole network in the right direction. That's how your company doesn't have the right tool, the right app, the right something.
hamilyon2 5y ago
Now we are being told the same about phones

Linus (the "tech tips" one) said something that sticks in my mind: "The only reason other companies can't do this - and Framework proved it - is because they don't care."

epistasis 5y ago

Well, the other reason is that customers don't care either. I certainly don't. The last desktop build I made 5 years ago hasn't had a single component changed in that entire time.

Grimm1 5y ago
Well no, you and people like you don’t, but as evidenced by all the people buying this there is a segment of the market that clearly does.
bserge 5y ago
I've only had laptops for over a decade. And I had system board failures. Honestly, I'd rage if I had to throw it out together with the perfectly good CPU, GPU/VRAM and maybe half the RAM and pay for a used replacement board with all of those integrated. Or what, buy a rework station and risk damaging them or having them work improperly due to shit soldering skills? I guess I could learn to fix the board itself. But that's pretty hard, there are no schematics, no components for most laptops, failures are not evident and one component can lead to a cascade of failures across the board. A used board was $100. Now they're ~$500 because there's a CPU and GPU there. My next computer will be a desktop in a handcrafted case (I'm also trying to fit a Li-Ion battery/UPS between the PSU and components).
- y4mi 5y ago
  Why handcrafted instead of the framework laptop? Are you just itching to do that project, or is there some other issue you had with getting the laptop from them?
  - bserge 5y ago
    It's more future proof. And performance is unmatched. Handcrafted because I want the smallest, lightest microATX case. Should I share the design? I have it ready in SolidWorks. I will still need a laptop away from home and/or as a portable display, that'll be one of my old 17 inchers or the cheapest one I can get (Haswell gen lol).
- bertjk 5y ago
  > (I'm also trying to fit a Li-Ion battery/UPS between the PSU and components) This should totally be a thing. I wish it was a thing. It doesn't even have to provide hours of runtime, just needs to be enough to handle the occasional stupid California brownout.
  - bserge 5y ago
    Yeah, it is the most efficient way to power everything (no conversion losses). 30 minutes is enough tbh. The battery will fit in an empty PSU case, I just need some custom cables and connectors for the passthrough, my biggest problem is charging and switchover. Looks like I will need a custom board for that. I thought it'd be easier heh
  - jhickok 5y ago
    Out of curiosity, wouldn't a conventional consumer UPS take care of that?
    - callmejoe 5y ago
      yeah. but it's more efficient to have the battery be on the output side of a PSU, since that's gonna be DC.
      - topspin 5y ago
        You might want to reconsider. I've found a separate UPS to be invaluable because, as you'll find, just getting power to the box is not sufficient. Other devices need power as well, especially network switches and displays.
topspin 5y ago
"customers don't care either" People care about Right To Repair; that's why the FTC has been pressured into action recently on the matter (not that I entertain any hope that that bunch of bought-and-paid-for bureaucrats will actually achieve anything.) Framework has blown a vast hole through the false arguments offered in opposition. One must simply care. That's all it takes. Every manufacturer that has opposed RTR has the means and talent to do at least as well has Framework has done, and probably better. They just don't care. Thankfully the vestigial remains of our free market are sufficient to run the experiment.
- epistasis 5y ago
  Do customers care though? Perhaps customer advocates do. And that's probably the best place for it, since it's such a niche and wonky idea. And that's why "free markets" will never solve this. (And that's whether the "free" in free markets means freedom from regulations, or freedom for people to participate in the market). IMHO this is why the European system of strong regulatory bodies tends to work better than the US system of "wait for a customer to experience damages, then recoup through the courts, and then the companies learn their lesson."
  - kaibee 5y ago
    > and then the companies learn their lesson. * analysts consider whether the cost > profit, if not then continue doing the same thing as before.
  - topspin 5y ago
    And yet here we are; despite the 446e6 strong market place the EU supposedly represents their regulatory power has not delivered what we see here. No, instead we have an American company motivated by only the belief that their product will succeed in the market kicking open the door.
    - epistasis 5y ago
      Well the question is do you want every laptop to have the customizability of Framework's laptops, or should there instead be a minimum bar set for warranty/repairability? I think the second is probably what's needed, and the EU has been better both at imposing standards and ensuring warranties and repairability.
CivBase 5y ago
The only a tiny minority of people probably care about the upgradability of their laptop. Many many more probably care about the repairability of their laptop, though.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  I think you're right. Many people "care" about repairability in the market sense of getting pissed off that a keyboard replacement costs >$500 for some reason. The right kind of marketing could bring them onboard.
1MachineElf 5y ago
In an alternate universe where the Framework concept was commonplace, you might say the same thing about a laptop built 5 years ago. Framework means you can custom-build it, just like your desktop. Reparability aside, that alone is a milestone.
squeaky-clean 5y ago
But imagine if your next desktop build required you to also throw away your SSD, monitor, keyboard, mouse, and speakers. You can also re-use a case in future builds, and re-use a high quality PSU in future builds. I also don't really care to replace individual components in my systems, but being able to upgrade laptop hardware without throwing away the chasis and storage seems pretty nice to me.
- epistasis 5y ago
  My next desktop build will require entirely new parts, and the prior build will be demoted to other uses, or given to someone else who has a better use for it. As a whole unit, it still has utility. If I scavenge an essential piece, all the rest go to waste. If it were a big energy hog (it's not), then it may make sense to put it out to pasture and scavenge the parts for others. The exception is my keyboard, is like my toothbrush, if toothbrushes could last for two decades. That I will keep and move to the new computer, as keyboard technology is not advancing. For laptops, I see even less utility for upgrades than for a desktop, but perhaps that's just me.
  - alpaca128 5y ago
    Easy upgrades mean easy repair. The opposite is also true. You can move your keyboard to a new computer because you are able to detach it without melting half the device with a heat gun. With laptops it's not that easy. When the MacBook keyboards broke all the time a few years ago, a keyboard replacement meant also replacing the speakers, battery and touchpad. Not for any technical reason, but because Apple doesn't like screws. The MS Surface Pro and Surface Laptop couldn't be repaired by anyone, not even MS themselves - if a single $20-30 part fails you have to spend $1000 again. Doesn't sound like a great deal if you ask me. You might not need or want upgrades and maybe you're lucky and nothing ever breaks. But having the choice only comes with upsides.
pessimizer 5y ago
Whereas any dating of when my last desktop build was would be deceptive because they're replaced piece by piece. The closest occasion I can give is when I went from one to two desktops, but even then half the guts of the one I had before went into the new case, and were replaced in the old case with new purchases. I mean, I've met people that only wear underwear once or twice before throwing it away, too, but I wouldn't say that's normal. People would generally rather replace a drive, processor, ram, or screen than spend 10x as much on an entirely new system. They don't because the manufacturers make that option difficult or impossible. People didn't love VCR/TV combos, and people don't love this. Manufacturers love this.
GordonS 5y ago
It's not just about upgrading components, but also about having more choice during initial specification. It's a real PITA trying to find laptops that have almost everything you want, and inevitably you need to make multiple compromises. And it's also about replacing broken components without having to ditch the whole laptop. I'm really excited about how Framework could potentially shake up the whole industry!
- CoolGuySteve 5y ago
  Yes, this exactly. For the past year I've been trying to buy a Ryzen 5800u with at least 32GB of RAM and it has been fucking impossible. As soon as Framework releases an AMD model I'm on board.
  - kaladin-jasnah 5y ago
    Second this. If they do release an AMD model, that (or maybe a ThinkPad) will be my next laptop.
    - KajMagnus 5y ago
      I've also been looking for a Ryzen that can be upgraded to 32 or 64 RAM :- )
- zepto 5y ago
  > I'm really excited about how Framework could potentially shake up the whole industry! It won’t. The industry used to be like that back in the day before Apple proved that most people don’t want too many choices.
  - markkanof 5y ago
    I'm not pushing back too hard on this idea, because in general you are likely right about almost anything, that most people don't care that much. However, I'm not sure that Apple really proved that most people don't want too many choices. The choice to buy an Apple computer could be for any number of reasons. Like for example, I really like macOS and the integration between my iPhone and my MacBook for things like iMessage. Anytime I've bought an Apple computer it's felt like I have to compromise on the hardware options, but I still do it because I like other aspects of the overall ecosystem.
webmobdev 5y ago
That's only the half of it - everyone cares when they have to repair their device. You start to feel the unfairness of it when companies charge you exorbitant prices for common components because they've designed it in a non-standardised way for that particular device. Or when you face the reality of (for e.g.) having to pay to replace the whole board because of a malfunctioning soldered RAM or soldered SSD, and realise how shortsighted it was to buy a device that is designed not to be repaired.
jonshariat 5y ago
I wouldn't be interested in fixing myself but if I know that I can have my laptop repaired or upgraded for cheap, that would be amazing.
simion314 5y ago
>The last desktop build I made 5 years ago hasn't had a single component changed in that entire tim I upgraded my monitor and changed 2 keyboards(I am hard on them) with a laptop if you fuck your keyboard you probably have to use an external one or hope that replacing your laptop keyboard is cheap enough and you can find a spare.
hkt 5y ago
A friend of mine has a fairphone and broke its screen while he was staying with me. The fairphone is quite similar insofar as it is designed to be long lived and user serviceable. He ordered a screen, next day delivery, and changed it himself for about £60. Users care!
- deleted 5y ago
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devwastaken 5y ago
You will care next time you have to build one.
topspin 5y ago
"The last desktop build I made 5 years ago" A desktop you built using standardized components you sourced from a competitive market with a plethora of alternatives specifically designed for easy assembly. Should any component fail you can obtain a replacement and perform the repair yourself. Doubtless these affordances are a part of why you chose to assemble you're machine yourself. You do indeed care. The inability to extrapolate this to laptop machines seems obtuse.
- epistasis 5y ago
  No, I still don't care at all about the customizability. I did it mostly because I had to use Windows but didn't want to deal with an OEM's crap ware. The customizability was actually an impediment to get what I wanted: a box. I don't doubt that a huge market of interchangeable parts made this easier. But it's important to separate the ends from the means here, when it comes to customer concerns. The customers that want customizability and upgradability are a vanishingly small slice of customers. (Just as are the ones who want to run Linux, and that small slice does include me.)
  - topspin 5y ago
    "I did it mostly because I had to use Windows but didn't want to deal with an OEM's crap ware." Can you not imagine the vast market of people that might want a laptop not loaded with OEM crap ware? Because that is exactly what could emerge if Framework manages to establish a market of commodity mobile components.
    - epistasis 5y ago
      The simpler route would be to have an OEM that didn't install crap ware, rather than having to order a basket of parts and assemble them. I went the basket route because it required less research for me, because I just wanted to get to my end result as quickly as possible. Grander goals about establishing ecosystems that serve other eventual end goals is not the way that most money is spent. (Though I do spend my money that way in other areas, such as with climate action, the PC market does not matter that much to me.)
akiselev 5y ago
> The last desktop build I made 5 years ago hasn't had a single component changed in that entire time. My last desktop build is still going strong nine years later. Swapped out a broken motherboard, upgraded to OCed DDR3, and stuck in a PCIe card for NVMe: good as new.
- KptMarchewa 5y ago
  Graphics card I bought 5 years ago - 1060 6GB - is currently worth pretty much the same as it was then, despite the fact that it's used.
wccrawford 5y ago
Some don't, sure, but many do. I care. I often swap out parts. My family and friends care, because I help them swap out parts when needed, especially during critical failures when they need it working ASAP and can't risk some corporation formatting the hard drive for no reason. And my coworkers care because they're fellow techies and do this stuff, too.
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caeril 5y ago
> I certainly don't. Reminder that Apple isn't the problem. Their customers are. I know movie quotes are seriously lowbrow for this audience, but somewhat relevant here, and correct: "That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy." Not to Godwin the thread, but this absurd apologia for anti-freedom products from the standpoint of convenience and apathy reminds me of the old quip about Hitler making the trains run on time. I hope a decade from now you love the soul-crushing Snow Crash-esque dystopia your choices will have created, because you will have absolutely no moral authority to complain about it.
- leppr 5y ago
  The problem is that for most people there are no clear incentives to making the "good" choices in those matters, while there are many incentives to make the "bad" choice, like gaining an edge in the local competitive market by virtue of a more efficient tool. Prototypical tragedy of the commons.
NotPractical 5y ago
Your desktop doesn't have a battery in it, like laptops do. Batteries are the one component in a laptop that is guaranteed to degrade over the course of a few years and eventually make the product unusable. The battery is glued in on the MacBook Pro, so it will eventually become useless. It's as simple as that, and very unfortunate. It's nice to have the option to upgrade the other parts too, though, and why not expect this, if it's clearly possible, as the Framework laptop shows?
christophilus 5y ago
My laptop has a single thunderbolt port. I use it for my 5k monitor. If that port goes, I need to get a new laptop. (That new laptop will be the Framework laptop, if they offer a 15" hi-DPI option.) If my laptop was a Framework laptop, I'd just need to buy a pretty inexpensive new port and swap it out. It's a pretty big deal, in my opinion.
- concinds 5y ago
  USB-C ports (the "internal" ones) are soldered to the motherbord on Framework, unlike on MacBooks, FYI
sixothree 5y ago
I am very happy for you to have such good luck.

ashtonkem 5y ago

That’s almost always the reality when a company “can’t” do something.

fabianhjr 5y ago

They care about keeping new laptop sales up and repairable anything goes against that.

bitwize 5y ago

Linus has now invested in Framework, which constrains how he is allowed to review laptops on his channel because of the possibility of a conflict of interest. He says it's worth it to support what he believes is a great company with an awesome product vision.

jagger27 5y ago
Linus has shown his flagrant disregard for impartiality or any form of integrity over and over again. Look through the LTT back catalogue and you’ll see that Intel is big sponsor of theirs. The fact that he gives “honest” reviews of Intel products doesn’t magically make it okay. You’d never see Dr. Ian Cutress of AnandTech or Steve from GamersNexus pulling this shit. Of course he makes much more money than both of them combined. Make no mistake that he is an entertainer and a businessman.
- easton 5y ago
  There is a conflict of interest there, but as a counterpoint, pretty much every time he does a build video it seems like he picks AMD (at least, post Ryzen).
  - onli 5y ago
    Even now with the Framework laptop said he would like to help with making an AMD version possible.
- onli 5y ago
  GamersNexus is all the time reviewing stuff positively and then taking on the same enterprise as sponsor. They can do that because their viewers know that they will still be very critical with the next product. LTT also really always had the proper balance. Sponsored reviews are marked, sponsored segments are marked, and they are not holding back on negative reviews for long term channel sponsors. They totally ripped into Intel again and again for the failure to compete with AMD, and at the same time have Intel sponsor new hardware upgrades for team members in a sponsored mini-series. Totally fair.

m463 5y ago

I would clarify that - it is not in their best interests to care. what they want is: To sell you a laptop with a current cpu and memory. If you are "price insensitive" they will allow you to get a better cpu or more memory for a significant upcharge. next year, they want: To sell you a laptop with a current cpu and memory. They do not want you upgrading the cpu or memory yourself They do not want you to add next-year's cpu yourself next year.

qorrect 5y ago
Yeah came here to say this, I think what they meant to say is "It cant be done at the profit margins we want" not "It cant be done".
conradfr 5y ago
I wanted to buy a new laptop last year and was shocked: 1/ A lot of them (most?) had 8Go of RAM. 16Go is rare and 32Go even more. What year is it?! 2/ Most have soldiered RAM without an additional slot.
- dwaite 5y ago
  Soldered ram significantly decreases repair incidents (from unseated laptop ram) and increases runtime reliability (from direct electrical contact of said ram). It allows for the machine to ship with an optimized ram configuration (lane count, timing). It also reduces the part cost and device footprint.
  - donmcronald 5y ago
    Most RAM comes with a "lifetime" warranty. IMO if the soldered RAM is so great, they should give me a lifetime guarantee they'll replace the MB if the soldered RAM fails. Then I'd be ok with it.
    - dwaite 5y ago
      In the sense that products which do not support third-party repairability should generally have a higher first party warranty requirement, I agree.

slabity 5y ago

Another quote from Linus that's relevant: "Imagine being an engineer at a company at Apple, and it being your job to design the mechanism that makes it so that machine cannot start up unless the chassis is fully sealed. Apple spent actual fucking money making sure that product would not work unless it is in the exact chassis they shipped it in." That goes beyond not caring.

mschuster91 5y ago
Where is that quote from? I wasn't able to find it via Google. Anyway, a computer that refuses to turn on after been tampered with does have its uses, particularly if your threat model is government secret services.
- CubityFirst 5y ago
  From his latest video where he disclosed / explained his philosphy in investing into Framework. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg
- trutannus 5y ago
  > threat model is government secret services Realistically, if your threat model is government secret services, and you're using unmodified consumer grade electronics, then you're in 'danger' no matter what. You can't effectively mitigate a threat at the state level using resources produced under the watchful eye of the same state. All they have to do is ask the producer to swap out the device they gave you with a device that comes compromised out of the box. And that's assuming the tech is perfect. Most likely they just hire someone to defeat the countermeasures. However many resources Apple has, I assure you even the most janky state has more.
  - javajosh 5y ago
    Special hardware seems 007 childish to me. What's better, having a high-tech tricked-out phone/laptop, or to just have a random stock Android with an inoffensive sim card in it? It seems obvious to me that if you're being targeted, tailed and tracked and probed, you've already lost.

agumonkey 5y ago

This effect exists all across society. Some culture seems to drive laziness / selfishness across the (irl) social network. Every would care but nobody can pull the whole network in the right direction. That's how your company doesn't have the right tool, the right app, the right something.

hamilyon2 5y ago

Now we are being told the same about phones