28 ms·

It feels like for years we were constantly told by these corporations "it's impossible to have slim, tiny laptops and make them customizable", and I guess at so

It feels like for years we were constantly told by these corporations "it's impossible to have slim, tiny laptops and make them customizable", and I guess at some level I believed that, and just accepted that laptops with upgradable components were a thing of the past. After seeing the framework, I'm more than a little annoyed that I fell for this. They proved you can have a slim, clean laptop that's somewhat modular, and more impressively, with something like 1% of Apple's budget to do it. Had I known about it, I probably wouldn't have paid an arm and a leg for a maxed-out Macbook Pro a year ago. MacOS is nice, probably my favorite consumer operating system currently available, but Apple's walled garden approach is beyond annoying.

topspin 5y ago
Linus (the "tech tips" one) said something that sticks in my mind: "The only reason other companies can't do this - and Framework proved it - is because they don't care."
- epistasis 5y ago
  Well, the other reason is that customers don't care either. I certainly don't. The last desktop build I made 5 years ago hasn't had a single component changed in that entire time.
  - Grimm1 5y ago
    Well no, you and people like you don’t, but as evidenced by all the people buying this there is a segment of the market that clearly does.
  - bserge 5y ago
    I've only had laptops for over a decade. And I had system board failures. Honestly, I'd rage if I had to throw it out together with the perfectly good CPU, GPU/VRAM and maybe half the RAM and pay for a used replacement board with all of those integrated. Or what, buy a rework station and risk damaging them or having them work improperly due to shit soldering skills? I guess I could learn to fix the board itself. But that's pretty hard, there are no schematics, no components for most laptops, failures are not evident and one component can lead to a cascade of failures across the board. A used board was $100. Now they're ~$500 because there's a CPU and GPU there. My next computer will be a desktop in a handcrafted case (I'm also trying to fit a Li-Ion battery/UPS between the PSU and components).
    - y4mi 5y ago
      Why handcrafted instead of the framework laptop? Are you just itching to do that project, or is there some other issue you had with getting the laptop from them?
      - bserge 5y ago
        It's more future proof. And performance is unmatched. Handcrafted because I want the smallest, lightest microATX case. Should I share the design? I have it ready in SolidWorks. I will still need a laptop away from home and/or as a portable display, that'll be one of my old 17 inchers or the cheapest one I can get (Haswell gen lol).
    - bertjk 5y ago
      > (I'm also trying to fit a Li-Ion battery/UPS between the PSU and components) This should totally be a thing. I wish it was a thing. It doesn't even have to provide hours of runtime, just needs to be enough to handle the occasional stupid California brownout.
      - bserge 5y ago
        Yeah, it is the most efficient way to power everything (no conversion losses). 30 minutes is enough tbh. The battery will fit in an empty PSU case, I just need some custom cables and connectors for the passthrough, my biggest problem is charging and switchover. Looks like I will need a custom board for that. I thought it'd be easier heh
      - jhickok 5y ago
        Out of curiosity, wouldn't a conventional consumer UPS take care of that?
        callmejoe 5y ago
        yeah. but it's more efficient to have the battery be on the output side of a PSU, since that's gonna be DC.
  - topspin 5y ago
    "customers don't care either" People care about Right To Repair; that's why the FTC has been pressured into action recently on the matter (not that I entertain any hope that that bunch of bought-and-paid-for bureaucrats will actually achieve anything.) Framework has blown a vast hole through the false arguments offered in opposition. One must simply care. That's all it takes. Every manufacturer that has opposed RTR has the means and talent to do at least as well has Framework has done, and probably better. They just don't care. Thankfully the vestigial remains of our free market are sufficient to run the experiment.
    - epistasis 5y ago
      Do customers care though? Perhaps customer advocates do. And that's probably the best place for it, since it's such a niche and wonky idea. And that's why "free markets" will never solve this. (And that's whether the "free" in free markets means freedom from regulations, or freedom for people to participate in the market). IMHO this is why the European system of strong regulatory bodies tends to work better than the US system of "wait for a customer to experience damages, then recoup through the courts, and then the companies learn their lesson."
      - kaibee 5y ago
        > and then the companies learn their lesson. * analysts consider whether the cost > profit, if not then continue doing the same thing as before.
      - topspin 5y ago
        And yet here we are; despite the 446e6 strong market place the EU supposedly represents their regulatory power has not delivered what we see here. No, instead we have an American company motivated by only the belief that their product will succeed in the market kicking open the door.
        epistasis 5y ago
        Well the question is do you want every laptop to have the customizability of Framework's laptops, or should there instead be a minimum bar set for warranty/repairability? I think the second is probably what's needed, and the EU has been better both at imposing standards and ensuring warranties and repairability.
  - CivBase 5y ago
    The only a tiny minority of people probably care about the upgradability of their laptop. Many many more probably care about the repairability of their laptop, though.
    - AlexandrB 5y ago
      I think you're right. Many people "care" about repairability in the market sense of getting pissed off that a keyboard replacement costs >$500 for some reason. The right kind of marketing could bring them onboard.
  - 1MachineElf 5y ago
    In an alternate universe where the Framework concept was commonplace, you might say the same thing about a laptop built 5 years ago. Framework means you can custom-build it, just like your desktop. Reparability aside, that alone is a milestone.
  - squeaky-clean 5y ago
    But imagine if your next desktop build required you to also throw away your SSD, monitor, keyboard, mouse, and speakers. You can also re-use a case in future builds, and re-use a high quality PSU in future builds. I also don't really care to replace individual components in my systems, but being able to upgrade laptop hardware without throwing away the chasis and storage seems pretty nice to me.
    - epistasis 5y ago
      My next desktop build will require entirely new parts, and the prior build will be demoted to other uses, or given to someone else who has a better use for it. As a whole unit, it still has utility. If I scavenge an essential piece, all the rest go to waste. If it were a big energy hog (it's not), then it may make sense to put it out to pasture and scavenge the parts for others. The exception is my keyboard, is like my toothbrush, if toothbrushes could last for two decades. That I will keep and move to the new computer, as keyboard technology is not advancing. For laptops, I see even less utility for upgrades than for a desktop, but perhaps that's just me.
      - alpaca128 5y ago
        Easy upgrades mean easy repair. The opposite is also true. You can move your keyboard to a new computer because you are able to detach it without melting half the device with a heat gun. With laptops it's not that easy. When the MacBook keyboards broke all the time a few years ago, a keyboard replacement meant also replacing the speakers, battery and touchpad. Not for any technical reason, but because Apple doesn't like screws. The MS Surface Pro and Surface Laptop couldn't be repaired by anyone, not even MS themselves - if a single $20-30 part fails you have to spend $1000 again. Doesn't sound like a great deal if you ask me. You might not need or want upgrades and maybe you're lucky and nothing ever breaks. But having the choice only comes with upsides.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    Whereas any dating of when my last desktop build was would be deceptive because they're replaced piece by piece. The closest occasion I can give is when I went from one to two desktops, but even then half the guts of the one I had before went into the new case, and were replaced in the old case with new purchases. I mean, I've met people that only wear underwear once or twice before throwing it away, too, but I wouldn't say that's normal. People would generally rather replace a drive, processor, ram, or screen than spend 10x as much on an entirely new system. They don't because the manufacturers make that option difficult or impossible. People didn't love VCR/TV combos, and people don't love this. Manufacturers love this.
  - GordonS 5y ago
    It's not just about upgrading components, but also about having more choice during initial specification. It's a real PITA trying to find laptops that have almost everything you want, and inevitably you need to make multiple compromises. And it's also about replacing broken components without having to ditch the whole laptop. I'm really excited about how Framework could potentially shake up the whole industry!
    - CoolGuySteve 5y ago
      Yes, this exactly. For the past year I've been trying to buy a Ryzen 5800u with at least 32GB of RAM and it has been fucking impossible. As soon as Framework releases an AMD model I'm on board.
      - kaladin-jasnah 5y ago
        Second this. If they do release an AMD model, that (or maybe a ThinkPad) will be my next laptop.
        KajMagnus 5y ago
        I've also been looking for a Ryzen that can be upgraded to 32 or 64 RAM :- )
    - zepto 5y ago
      > I'm really excited about how Framework could potentially shake up the whole industry! It won’t. The industry used to be like that back in the day before Apple proved that most people don’t want too many choices.
      - markkanof 5y ago
        I'm not pushing back too hard on this idea, because in general you are likely right about almost anything, that most people don't care that much. However, I'm not sure that Apple really proved that most people don't want too many choices. The choice to buy an Apple computer could be for any number of reasons. Like for example, I really like macOS and the integration between my iPhone and my MacBook for things like iMessage. Anytime I've bought an Apple computer it's felt like I have to compromise on the hardware options, but I still do it because I like other aspects of the overall ecosystem.
  - webmobdev 5y ago
    That's only the half of it - everyone cares when they have to repair their device. You start to feel the unfairness of it when companies charge you exorbitant prices for common components because they've designed it in a non-standardised way for that particular device. Or when you face the reality of (for e.g.) having to pay to replace the whole board because of a malfunctioning soldered RAM or soldered SSD, and realise how shortsighted it was to buy a device that is designed not to be repaired.
  - jonshariat 5y ago
    I wouldn't be interested in fixing myself but if I know that I can have my laptop repaired or upgraded for cheap, that would be amazing.
  - simion314 5y ago
    >The last desktop build I made 5 years ago hasn't had a single component changed in that entire tim I upgraded my monitor and changed 2 keyboards(I am hard on them) with a laptop if you fuck your keyboard you probably have to use an external one or hope that replacing your laptop keyboard is cheap enough and you can find a spare.
  - hkt 5y ago
    A friend of mine has a fairphone and broke its screen while he was staying with me. The fairphone is quite similar insofar as it is designed to be long lived and user serviceable. He ordered a screen, next day delivery, and changed it himself for about £60. Users care!
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - devwastaken 5y ago
    You will care next time you have to build one.
  - topspin 5y ago
    "The last desktop build I made 5 years ago" A desktop you built using standardized components you sourced from a competitive market with a plethora of alternatives specifically designed for easy assembly. Should any component fail you can obtain a replacement and perform the repair yourself. Doubtless these affordances are a part of why you chose to assemble you're machine yourself. You do indeed care. The inability to extrapolate this to laptop machines seems obtuse.
    - epistasis 5y ago
      No, I still don't care at all about the customizability. I did it mostly because I had to use Windows but didn't want to deal with an OEM's crap ware. The customizability was actually an impediment to get what I wanted: a box. I don't doubt that a huge market of interchangeable parts made this easier. But it's important to separate the ends from the means here, when it comes to customer concerns. The customers that want customizability and upgradability are a vanishingly small slice of customers. (Just as are the ones who want to run Linux, and that small slice does include me.)
      - topspin 5y ago
        "I did it mostly because I had to use Windows but didn't want to deal with an OEM's crap ware." Can you not imagine the vast market of people that might want a laptop not loaded with OEM crap ware? Because that is exactly what could emerge if Framework manages to establish a market of commodity mobile components.
        epistasis 5y ago
        The simpler route would be to have an OEM that didn't install crap ware, rather than having to order a basket of parts and assemble them. I went the basket route because it required less research for me, because I just wanted to get to my end result as quickly as possible. Grander goals about establishing ecosystems that serve other eventual end goals is not the way that most money is spent. (Though I do spend my money that way in other areas, such as with climate action, the PC market does not matter that much to me.)
  - akiselev 5y ago
    > The last desktop build I made 5 years ago hasn't had a single component changed in that entire time. My last desktop build is still going strong nine years later. Swapped out a broken motherboard, upgraded to OCed DDR3, and stuck in a PCIe card for NVMe: good as new.
    - KptMarchewa 5y ago
      Graphics card I bought 5 years ago - 1060 6GB - is currently worth pretty much the same as it was then, despite the fact that it's used.
  - wccrawford 5y ago
    Some don't, sure, but many do. I care. I often swap out parts. My family and friends care, because I help them swap out parts when needed, especially during critical failures when they need it working ASAP and can't risk some corporation formatting the hard drive for no reason. And my coworkers care because they're fellow techies and do this stuff, too.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - caeril 5y ago
    > I certainly don't. Reminder that Apple isn't the problem. Their customers are. I know movie quotes are seriously lowbrow for this audience, but somewhat relevant here, and correct: "That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy." Not to Godwin the thread, but this absurd apologia for anti-freedom products from the standpoint of convenience and apathy reminds me of the old quip about Hitler making the trains run on time. I hope a decade from now you love the soul-crushing Snow Crash-esque dystopia your choices will have created, because you will have absolutely no moral authority to complain about it.
    - leppr 5y ago
      The problem is that for most people there are no clear incentives to making the "good" choices in those matters, while there are many incentives to make the "bad" choice, like gaining an edge in the local competitive market by virtue of a more efficient tool. Prototypical tragedy of the commons.
  - NotPractical 5y ago
    Your desktop doesn't have a battery in it, like laptops do. Batteries are the one component in a laptop that is guaranteed to degrade over the course of a few years and eventually make the product unusable. The battery is glued in on the MacBook Pro, so it will eventually become useless. It's as simple as that, and very unfortunate. It's nice to have the option to upgrade the other parts too, though, and why not expect this, if it's clearly possible, as the Framework laptop shows?
  - christophilus 5y ago
    My laptop has a single thunderbolt port. I use it for my 5k monitor. If that port goes, I need to get a new laptop. (That new laptop will be the Framework laptop, if they offer a 15" hi-DPI option.) If my laptop was a Framework laptop, I'd just need to buy a pretty inexpensive new port and swap it out. It's a pretty big deal, in my opinion.
    - concinds 5y ago
      USB-C ports (the "internal" ones) are soldered to the motherbord on Framework, unlike on MacBooks, FYI
  - sixothree 5y ago
    I am very happy for you to have such good luck.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  That’s almost always the reality when a company “can’t” do something.
- fabianhjr 5y ago
  They care about keeping new laptop sales up and repairable anything goes against that.
- bitwize 5y ago
  Linus has now invested in Framework, which constrains how he is allowed to review laptops on his channel because of the possibility of a conflict of interest. He says it's worth it to support what he believes is a great company with an awesome product vision.
  - jagger27 5y ago
    Linus has shown his flagrant disregard for impartiality or any form of integrity over and over again. Look through the LTT back catalogue and you’ll see that Intel is big sponsor of theirs. The fact that he gives “honest” reviews of Intel products doesn’t magically make it okay. You’d never see Dr. Ian Cutress of AnandTech or Steve from GamersNexus pulling this shit. Of course he makes much more money than both of them combined. Make no mistake that he is an entertainer and a businessman.
    - easton 5y ago
      There is a conflict of interest there, but as a counterpoint, pretty much every time he does a build video it seems like he picks AMD (at least, post Ryzen).
      - onli 5y ago
        Even now with the Framework laptop said he would like to help with making an AMD version possible.
    - onli 5y ago
      GamersNexus is all the time reviewing stuff positively and then taking on the same enterprise as sponsor. They can do that because their viewers know that they will still be very critical with the next product. LTT also really always had the proper balance. Sponsored reviews are marked, sponsored segments are marked, and they are not holding back on negative reviews for long term channel sponsors. They totally ripped into Intel again and again for the failure to compete with AMD, and at the same time have Intel sponsor new hardware upgrades for team members in a sponsored mini-series. Totally fair.
- m463 5y ago
  I would clarify that - it is not in their best interests to care. what they want is: To sell you a laptop with a current cpu and memory. If you are "price insensitive" they will allow you to get a better cpu or more memory for a significant upcharge. next year, they want: To sell you a laptop with a current cpu and memory. They do not want you upgrading the cpu or memory yourself They do not want you to add next-year's cpu yourself next year.
  - qorrect 5y ago
    Yeah came here to say this, I think what they meant to say is "It cant be done at the profit margins we want" not "It cant be done".
  - conradfr 5y ago
    I wanted to buy a new laptop last year and was shocked: 1/ A lot of them (most?) had 8Go of RAM. 16Go is rare and 32Go even more. What year is it?! 2/ Most have soldiered RAM without an additional slot.
    - dwaite 5y ago
      Soldered ram significantly decreases repair incidents (from unseated laptop ram) and increases runtime reliability (from direct electrical contact of said ram). It allows for the machine to ship with an optimized ram configuration (lane count, timing). It also reduces the part cost and device footprint.
      - donmcronald 5y ago
        Most RAM comes with a "lifetime" warranty. IMO if the soldered RAM is so great, they should give me a lifetime guarantee they'll replace the MB if the soldered RAM fails. Then I'd be ok with it.
        dwaite 5y ago
        In the sense that products which do not support third-party repairability should generally have a higher first party warranty requirement, I agree.
- slabity 5y ago
  Another quote from Linus that's relevant: "Imagine being an engineer at a company at Apple, and it being your job to design the mechanism that makes it so that machine cannot start up unless the chassis is fully sealed. Apple spent actual fucking money making sure that product would not work unless it is in the exact chassis they shipped it in." That goes beyond not caring.
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    Where is that quote from? I wasn't able to find it via Google. Anyway, a computer that refuses to turn on after been tampered with does have its uses, particularly if your threat model is government secret services.
    - CubityFirst 5y ago
      From his latest video where he disclosed / explained his philosphy in investing into Framework. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg
    - trutannus 5y ago
      > threat model is government secret services Realistically, if your threat model is government secret services, and you're using unmodified consumer grade electronics, then you're in 'danger' no matter what. You can't effectively mitigate a threat at the state level using resources produced under the watchful eye of the same state. All they have to do is ask the producer to swap out the device they gave you with a device that comes compromised out of the box. And that's assuming the tech is perfect. Most likely they just hire someone to defeat the countermeasures. However many resources Apple has, I assure you even the most janky state has more.
      - javajosh 5y ago
        Special hardware seems 007 childish to me. What's better, having a high-tech tricked-out phone/laptop, or to just have a random stock Android with an inoffensive sim card in it? It seems obvious to me that if you're being targeted, tailed and tracked and probed, you've already lost.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  This effect exists all across society. Some culture seems to drive laziness / selfishness across the (irl) social network. Every would care but nobody can pull the whole network in the right direction. That's how your company doesn't have the right tool, the right app, the right something.
- hamilyon2 5y ago
  Now we are being told the same about phones
cogman10 5y ago
We've been told for years that "slim and tiny is what you really want!" No, I don't want slim and tiny, I want to be able to replace and upgrade parts. I want a battery I can swap out or RAM I can replace. The problem is that being able to swap parts extends service life of machines. Can't have that when they want you to just buy a new one ever 3 years.
- NotPractical 5y ago
  As a student, I do want my laptop to be slim and tiny, but I was misled by Apple into thinking slim and tiny is only possible if the laptop isn't at all repairable. Might sell my MacBook Pro for this thing. Though macOS is a guilty pleasure I will miss :( Edit: Also the 16:10 aspect ratio :(
  - solarfair 5y ago
    For those who were curious like me, it seems that Hackintosh support is spotty at best.
    - NotPractical 5y ago
      I did a little research on this, and it seems the main (perhaps only?) problem is that all mobo configs come with an 11th gen Intel CPU with Iris Xe graphics.[1] Since the last Intel Macs used 10th gen chips with Iris Plus graphics, and Apple isn't making any more Intel Macs, it's likely that macOS will never support Iris Xe. What a shame. While I do intend to switch to Linux eventually, the ability to run macOS would have made it easier to switch from a MacBook. [1] https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Install-Guide/macos-limits.html#cpu-support https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Install-Guide/macos-limi...
  - fartcannon 5y ago
    You won't miss it after a few months in Linux's diverse desktop experience ecosystem.
    - 5y ago
tshaddox 5y ago
Do you actually have any example of a corporation that makes laptops saying that it’s impossible to have slim laptops that are customizable? I would be very surprised if this ever happened, but I’m willing to be proven wrong.
- kreeben 5y ago
  Do you have an example of a corporation that makes laptops that says it’s possible?
- tombert 5y ago
  You know, I can't think of a concrete example of that, when pressed, so it is possible this was just something repeated to me by coworkers and friends doing Apple apologia, and I just treated it as a truth. A quick Google doesn't appear to show Apple or any other corporation saying it, so I'll take the L on it. I think my overall point still stands. I still find it irritating that, until very recently, the only way to get a nice, slim laptop was to accept that everything is hard-wired in. Framework proved that that's not correct.
  - sneak 5y ago
    FWIW, I also remember this claim being made, but yes, it may have just been Apple apologists in comments, or perhaps Apple wrt the iPhone battery, ages ago.
  - powerwaif 5y ago
    You don't need a direct quote proving it. They just do it.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
    Your experience matches my own. I haven't heard it from a company but there are definitely Apple zealots/shills who would say that in threads about right to repair.
    - tombert 5y ago
jeffbee 5y ago
The Framework is larger and weighs more than contemporary machines that have larger displays (e.g. ThinkPad X1 Carbon 9th generation), and it has worse performance and shorter battery life because soldered-in RAM isn't some kind of scam, it's actually much better. In short, it was not a lie that you get smaller, lighter, and better laptops with integration. You do, in fact, get all of those things.
- tombert 5y ago
  Is that a property of the components being soldered in, or just a property of the fact that Framework cannot get access to the highest quality components on the market? Genuine question, I know very little about electrical components.
  - jeffbee 5y ago
    They have to use DDR4-3200 to be able to put the RAM on a stick. Integrated systems can use LPDDR4x-4267. You can't put that on a stick. It's a trade-off. It turns out it takes extra power to drive high-speed signals across long traces with connectors.
    - tombert 5y ago
      That's fair enough. I guess I just hope that we figure out a way to overcome this I suppose.
    - jagger27 5y ago
      I thought the power advantage mostly came from the total bus being half as wide (32-bit LPDDR4X versus 64-bit DDR4). Do you have a reference for why it can’t be put on a removable module?
      - jeffbee 5y ago
        I'm fairly sure the power advantage comes from VDDQ being much lower: .6V for LPDDR4x and 1.2V for DDR4. LPDDR4x is or at least can be 64 bits wide, just like DDR4.
soperj 5y ago
I don't even care about slim. Light yes. Slim doesn't really do a whole lot for me past a certain point (which for me was a decade ago). Being able to replace parts is way more important.
riedel 5y ago
Unfortunately currently framework says it is impossible to have a slim, tiny , customizable laptop with a trackpoint option (due to the keyboard height). Hopefully we will overcome this one too and I would be all in...
- wpietri 5y ago
  This is the barrier for me too. I'm writing this on a 4-year-old Thinkpad. (The "25th anniversary edition", which has my favorite keyboard.) If somebody figures that out, I'm happy to switch, as my feelings on the Thinkpad line are the same as Doctorow's: formerly great, now sadly declining.
- xondono 5y ago
  I’ve never understood the trackpoint use case, the (admittedly few) computers I’ve had with it, I just felt it a nuisance in the middle of the keyboard.
  - riedel 5y ago
    To the same goes for the trackpad for me. I am always disabling them to avoid accidental contact. I guess this is why we need more customizable devices.
xvector 5y ago
The Framework has half the battery life of similarly sized alternatives. No one was lying to you.
- rozap 5y ago
  As battery tech gets better, you can replace it. And the glued-in battery in the macbook pro won't be 100% capacity after a bunch of charge/discharges. It's a compromise in the short term maybe, but long term it's so much nicer.
  - NullPrefix 5y ago
    >battery in the macbook pro won't be 100% capacity after a bunch of charge/discharges You're supposed to replace the macbook by then.
    - paxys 5y ago
      That's the entire point of framework. Why should I have to replace my macbook when most of it runs perfect except for one part?
      - xvector 5y ago
        But you don't have to replace the MacBook, you can just replace the battery.
        paxys 5y ago
        On newer Macbooks the battery is literally glued in. An Apple authorized repair center is going to charge you $200+ for a replacement.
        xvector 5y ago
        Wow, didn't know this!
        5y ago
stakkur 5y ago
I love the Framework idea, and believe in repairability. But I’ll be interested to see what Framework does when they have the (enviable) challenge of manufacturing, distributing, and supporting half a billion of them.
azinman2 5y ago
> MacOS is nice, probably my favorite consumer operating system currently available, but Apple's walled garden approach is beyond annoying What’s the walled garden on macOS? You can run anything you want on the Mac.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  M1 macs no longer run unsigned code. Apps now check stapled OCSP. There's now a permissions dance to do much of anything.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    M1 Macs run self-signed code, though. You don't need a developer account or Apple keys.
  - nomel 5y ago
    > There's now a permissions dance to do much of anything. This is why we don't have secure computing in 2021. Users don't like the usability problems that come with security.
  - azinman2 5y ago
    You can turn off both gatekeeper and SIP.
    - vorpalhex 5y ago
      There is no longer an official gatekeeper off switch on M1 as far as I know.
      - azinman2 5y ago
        sudo spctl --master-disable
leetcrew 5y ago
I'm impressed that they have managed to take this product to market, and I'm glad that people who value modularity will finally have a viable option. at the same time, I personally don't see what all the fuss is about. you can upgrade both DIMMs, which is cool, but not exactly unheard of these days (I guess it's getting there in an ultraportable?). you're still stuck with DDR4, which is almost EOL, and the max capacity it entails. it's neat that you can customize your IO options, but how many people are going to do that more than once? being constrained by the chipset, it's not like you're going to be able to "upgrade" your IO in the future. the most likely parts of a laptop to fail are the SSD and the battery, both of which are fairly easy to replace on almost all laptops. past that, you aren't really gaining that much when you're locked into whatever CPU/chipset was current when you bought the laptop.
- FredFS456 5y ago
  Newer laptops are starting to come with soldered SSDs. Macbooks have had non-standard or soldered SSDs for the past 5+ years. Framework is also proactively making documentation, schematics, etc etc available for repair shops.
  - ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >Newer laptops are starting to come with soldered SSDs Which newer laptops? Other than Macs and crappy $199 Walmart grade tablet-chromebook thingamajigs, I don't know any mainstream PC laptop that does that (thankfully). Even super light and super slim laptops still have replaceable storage. Even niche Pocket Computers like the GPD and Valve Steam Deck still have replaceable SSDs. So I don't buy your statement.
    - ixwt 5y ago
      If Macs are doing it, others are soon to follow. Apple has been a trend setter for years. They were belittled for getting rid of the 3.5mm jack, only for flag ship phones to begin doing so.
      - 5y ago
5faulker 5y ago
This looks refreshing. Definitely one of the most interesting find of the year.
hyperpallium2 5y ago
According to Clayton Christensen, there's a cycle between integrated and modular, as consumer perferences change. At first performance is inadequate, but once it is good enough, people base their buying decisions on other things like customization. e.g. By this theory, android would become more popular than iphone. EDIT yes, which happened, favouring the theory; despite iphone still leading performance, due to integration even to cpu and gpu.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >e.g. By this theory, android would become more popular than iphone. Well Android already is more popular than iphone worldwide.
- gilbetron 5y ago
  Android is more popular, worldwide, than the iphone. It's only in the US and Japan that the iphone is more popular, and in the US, only by a bit.
xondono 5y ago
> we were constantly told by these corporations "it's impossible to have slim, tiny laptops and make them customizable" Because it’s true. The thing is “power users” and “regular users” look at that tradeoff differently. The bad part of economies of scale is that they reward conformity (you can pick your model T in any color, as long as that color is black). The framework would a hard time competing in the general laptop market, but luckily for them, they don’t have to. There’s a niche for specialized products and they are taking advantage. I’ve looking at their laptops since they announced, I’m just hoping they can release a Ryzen one, and then I’ll be on the fence between theirs and whatever Apple has to show for a ARM pro laptop (14”-15”).
- jhickok 5y ago
  >I’ve looking at their laptops since they announced, I’m just hoping they can release a Ryzen one, and then I’ll be on the fence between theirs and whatever Apple has to show for a ARM pro laptop (14”-15”). I'm in the same boat. While I in principle would love to invest in a powerful AMD laptop with tons of upgradeability with decent Linux support, Apple's next offerings which may give upgraded displays, my favorite trackpads, impressive power and ~20 hours of battery life is very hard to ignore.
- NotPractical 5y ago
  The only reason these two groups look at it differently is because people in the "regular users" group don't know how bad things are, and how good things could be. What makes you think the Framework would have a hard time competing in the general laptop market? The baseline, preassembled model starts at $1000 and comes with Windows 10 Home. It has a quad-core i5, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB storage, a nice 2256x1504 display, and it's thin and light (1.3kg, 11.7" x 9" x 0.6"). Compare that to your other thin and light options at this pricepoint: XPS 13: $1020 * i5 * 8 GB RAM * 256 GB storage * 1920 x 1200 display * 1.2 kg, 11.6" x 7.8" x 0.6" MacBook Pro: $1300 * M1 * 8 GB RAM * 256 GB storage * 2560 x 1600 display * 1.4kg, 12" x 8.7" x 0.6" This isn't even accounting for repairability as a feature. Consumers don't care about that as it stands, because they don't know they should. But once they realize, it will become a selling point, too.
squarefoot 5y ago
Besides planned obsolescence and other malicious intentions, there are also economies of scale to consider: if making a non modular/repairable laptop cost to a producer just one less buck, that's a lot of money when multiplied by the huge number they sell. That said, I love the concept and plan to buy one next year, when they hopefully will have means to sell in the EU without outrageous shipping+import duties.
anonymousDan 5y ago
I wonder if the slowdown in Moore's law had something to do with it? I mean back in the day the performance gap between a new processor and a 5-10 year old one was so substantial it was hardly worth your while
donmcronald 5y ago
> After seeing the framework, I'm more than a little annoyed that I fell for this. Me too. An I'm annoyed I fell for the lie that board level repair is impossible. What the manufacturers really should be saying is "it's impossible for us" because it's obviously possible for 3rd parties to do it and make a business out of it. I'm willing to pay +$100 for something that's assembled with screws instead of glues.
6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
It seems more likely that tech has advanced enough for this, rather than there being some greedy phenomenon where it just so happened that nobody thought to do better before framework.
akudha 5y ago
I guess at some level I believed that Why should we believe anything any for-profit company says, without verifying (whenever possible)? Drug companies lie all the time, about having to price their drugs absurdly high. Facebook lies all the time about not being able to fact check, without even attempting to try seriously. And on and on. The insane thing is not that companies lie. It is that the general public has either given up or duped into thinking these companies cannot possible lie. We have created an economic system where profit trumps everything else.
adolph 5y ago
To be fair to "these corporations," the modules available for the Framework are basically built-in USB-C dongles. If you really hate the look of dongles, then thats great. If you only use one thing, like HDMI, then you don't have to cart around a bunch of modules as if they are dongles. The three internal upgrad-ables are nice if you think that things will drastically change in RAM, SSD, or Wifi before the CPU, mainboard or faster connections to faster RAM and SSD make the effect of said upgrad-ables to be gilding a turd. Otherwise periodically buy the midrange storage and allow the secondary market to absorb your environmental guilt.
Decabytes 5y ago
I hope this changes the way that people think about hardware now that Framework has proved that we can have this. Let's just hope they scale
Optimal_Persona 5y ago
HP is a notable exception to this trend, they still make multiple ranges of slim, customizable laptops (at least non-touchscreen models). I oversee IT for an org of ~150 people and have swapped out RAM and M.2 SSDs on multiple recent HP ProBooks, EliteBooks, and a ZBook in the last few weeks with just a Phillips screwdriver and a spudger. Nothing epoxied shut or soldered in place, and the metal cases on recent generations of these HP models are sturdier than the older plastic. Our lead tech has replaced HP laptop batteries, keyboards and displays when needed with no issues. HP is also one of the few brands with backlit keyboards standard on most laptops, even down to the lower-end models I've encountered since 2018. But the Frameworks sure look intriguing!
TriNetra 5y ago
My Dell laptop just cross three years in June and the extended warrantee also got expired. The battery has been deteriorating with only a few mins of backup left. Called up the customer care and they asked to instead contact nearby service center. Tried with multiple in Delhi NCR and no one seem to have a battery – one of them said that no battery is available right now (God knows why?) Finally, somehow got one via Amazon supplied from a state 1600 KMs away from here for about $80 in a week time. It could very well be expensive than the one gotten from the service center but, was left with no option.

topspin 5y ago

Linus (the "tech tips" one) said something that sticks in my mind: "The only reason other companies can't do this - and Framework proved it - is because they don't care."

epistasis 5y ago
Well, the other reason is that customers don't care either. I certainly don't. The last desktop build I made 5 years ago hasn't had a single component changed in that entire time.
- Grimm1 5y ago
  Well no, you and people like you don’t, but as evidenced by all the people buying this there is a segment of the market that clearly does.
- bserge 5y ago
  I've only had laptops for over a decade. And I had system board failures. Honestly, I'd rage if I had to throw it out together with the perfectly good CPU, GPU/VRAM and maybe half the RAM and pay for a used replacement board with all of those integrated. Or what, buy a rework station and risk damaging them or having them work improperly due to shit soldering skills? I guess I could learn to fix the board itself. But that's pretty hard, there are no schematics, no components for most laptops, failures are not evident and one component can lead to a cascade of failures across the board. A used board was $100. Now they're ~$500 because there's a CPU and GPU there. My next computer will be a desktop in a handcrafted case (I'm also trying to fit a Li-Ion battery/UPS between the PSU and components).
  - y4mi 5y ago
    Why handcrafted instead of the framework laptop? Are you just itching to do that project, or is there some other issue you had with getting the laptop from them?
    - bserge 5y ago
      It's more future proof. And performance is unmatched. Handcrafted because I want the smallest, lightest microATX case. Should I share the design? I have it ready in SolidWorks. I will still need a laptop away from home and/or as a portable display, that'll be one of my old 17 inchers or the cheapest one I can get (Haswell gen lol).
  - bertjk 5y ago
    > (I'm also trying to fit a Li-Ion battery/UPS between the PSU and components) This should totally be a thing. I wish it was a thing. It doesn't even have to provide hours of runtime, just needs to be enough to handle the occasional stupid California brownout.
    - bserge 5y ago
      Yeah, it is the most efficient way to power everything (no conversion losses). 30 minutes is enough tbh. The battery will fit in an empty PSU case, I just need some custom cables and connectors for the passthrough, my biggest problem is charging and switchover. Looks like I will need a custom board for that. I thought it'd be easier heh
    - jhickok 5y ago
      Out of curiosity, wouldn't a conventional consumer UPS take care of that?
      - callmejoe 5y ago
        yeah. but it's more efficient to have the battery be on the output side of a PSU, since that's gonna be DC.
- topspin 5y ago
  "customers don't care either" People care about Right To Repair; that's why the FTC has been pressured into action recently on the matter (not that I entertain any hope that that bunch of bought-and-paid-for bureaucrats will actually achieve anything.) Framework has blown a vast hole through the false arguments offered in opposition. One must simply care. That's all it takes. Every manufacturer that has opposed RTR has the means and talent to do at least as well has Framework has done, and probably better. They just don't care. Thankfully the vestigial remains of our free market are sufficient to run the experiment.
  - epistasis 5y ago
    Do customers care though? Perhaps customer advocates do. And that's probably the best place for it, since it's such a niche and wonky idea. And that's why "free markets" will never solve this. (And that's whether the "free" in free markets means freedom from regulations, or freedom for people to participate in the market). IMHO this is why the European system of strong regulatory bodies tends to work better than the US system of "wait for a customer to experience damages, then recoup through the courts, and then the companies learn their lesson."
    - kaibee 5y ago
      > and then the companies learn their lesson. * analysts consider whether the cost > profit, if not then continue doing the same thing as before.
    - topspin 5y ago
      And yet here we are; despite the 446e6 strong market place the EU supposedly represents their regulatory power has not delivered what we see here. No, instead we have an American company motivated by only the belief that their product will succeed in the market kicking open the door.
      - epistasis 5y ago
        Well the question is do you want every laptop to have the customizability of Framework's laptops, or should there instead be a minimum bar set for warranty/repairability? I think the second is probably what's needed, and the EU has been better both at imposing standards and ensuring warranties and repairability.
- CivBase 5y ago
  The only a tiny minority of people probably care about the upgradability of their laptop. Many many more probably care about the repairability of their laptop, though.
  - AlexandrB 5y ago
    I think you're right. Many people "care" about repairability in the market sense of getting pissed off that a keyboard replacement costs >$500 for some reason. The right kind of marketing could bring them onboard.
- 1MachineElf 5y ago
  In an alternate universe where the Framework concept was commonplace, you might say the same thing about a laptop built 5 years ago. Framework means you can custom-build it, just like your desktop. Reparability aside, that alone is a milestone.
- squeaky-clean 5y ago
  But imagine if your next desktop build required you to also throw away your SSD, monitor, keyboard, mouse, and speakers. You can also re-use a case in future builds, and re-use a high quality PSU in future builds. I also don't really care to replace individual components in my systems, but being able to upgrade laptop hardware without throwing away the chasis and storage seems pretty nice to me.
  - epistasis 5y ago
    My next desktop build will require entirely new parts, and the prior build will be demoted to other uses, or given to someone else who has a better use for it. As a whole unit, it still has utility. If I scavenge an essential piece, all the rest go to waste. If it were a big energy hog (it's not), then it may make sense to put it out to pasture and scavenge the parts for others. The exception is my keyboard, is like my toothbrush, if toothbrushes could last for two decades. That I will keep and move to the new computer, as keyboard technology is not advancing. For laptops, I see even less utility for upgrades than for a desktop, but perhaps that's just me.
    - alpaca128 5y ago
      Easy upgrades mean easy repair. The opposite is also true. You can move your keyboard to a new computer because you are able to detach it without melting half the device with a heat gun. With laptops it's not that easy. When the MacBook keyboards broke all the time a few years ago, a keyboard replacement meant also replacing the speakers, battery and touchpad. Not for any technical reason, but because Apple doesn't like screws. The MS Surface Pro and Surface Laptop couldn't be repaired by anyone, not even MS themselves - if a single $20-30 part fails you have to spend $1000 again. Doesn't sound like a great deal if you ask me. You might not need or want upgrades and maybe you're lucky and nothing ever breaks. But having the choice only comes with upsides.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Whereas any dating of when my last desktop build was would be deceptive because they're replaced piece by piece. The closest occasion I can give is when I went from one to two desktops, but even then half the guts of the one I had before went into the new case, and were replaced in the old case with new purchases. I mean, I've met people that only wear underwear once or twice before throwing it away, too, but I wouldn't say that's normal. People would generally rather replace a drive, processor, ram, or screen than spend 10x as much on an entirely new system. They don't because the manufacturers make that option difficult or impossible. People didn't love VCR/TV combos, and people don't love this. Manufacturers love this.
- GordonS 5y ago
  It's not just about upgrading components, but also about having more choice during initial specification. It's a real PITA trying to find laptops that have almost everything you want, and inevitably you need to make multiple compromises. And it's also about replacing broken components without having to ditch the whole laptop. I'm really excited about how Framework could potentially shake up the whole industry!
  - CoolGuySteve 5y ago
    Yes, this exactly. For the past year I've been trying to buy a Ryzen 5800u with at least 32GB of RAM and it has been fucking impossible. As soon as Framework releases an AMD model I'm on board.
    - kaladin-jasnah 5y ago
      Second this. If they do release an AMD model, that (or maybe a ThinkPad) will be my next laptop.
      - KajMagnus 5y ago
        I've also been looking for a Ryzen that can be upgraded to 32 or 64 RAM :- )
  - zepto 5y ago
    > I'm really excited about how Framework could potentially shake up the whole industry! It won’t. The industry used to be like that back in the day before Apple proved that most people don’t want too many choices.
    - markkanof 5y ago
      I'm not pushing back too hard on this idea, because in general you are likely right about almost anything, that most people don't care that much. However, I'm not sure that Apple really proved that most people don't want too many choices. The choice to buy an Apple computer could be for any number of reasons. Like for example, I really like macOS and the integration between my iPhone and my MacBook for things like iMessage. Anytime I've bought an Apple computer it's felt like I have to compromise on the hardware options, but I still do it because I like other aspects of the overall ecosystem.
- webmobdev 5y ago
  That's only the half of it - everyone cares when they have to repair their device. You start to feel the unfairness of it when companies charge you exorbitant prices for common components because they've designed it in a non-standardised way for that particular device. Or when you face the reality of (for e.g.) having to pay to replace the whole board because of a malfunctioning soldered RAM or soldered SSD, and realise how shortsighted it was to buy a device that is designed not to be repaired.
- jonshariat 5y ago
  I wouldn't be interested in fixing myself but if I know that I can have my laptop repaired or upgraded for cheap, that would be amazing.
- simion314 5y ago
  >The last desktop build I made 5 years ago hasn't had a single component changed in that entire tim I upgraded my monitor and changed 2 keyboards(I am hard on them) with a laptop if you fuck your keyboard you probably have to use an external one or hope that replacing your laptop keyboard is cheap enough and you can find a spare.
- hkt 5y ago
  A friend of mine has a fairphone and broke its screen while he was staying with me. The fairphone is quite similar insofar as it is designed to be long lived and user serviceable. He ordered a screen, next day delivery, and changed it himself for about £60. Users care!
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- devwastaken 5y ago
  You will care next time you have to build one.
- topspin 5y ago
  "The last desktop build I made 5 years ago" A desktop you built using standardized components you sourced from a competitive market with a plethora of alternatives specifically designed for easy assembly. Should any component fail you can obtain a replacement and perform the repair yourself. Doubtless these affordances are a part of why you chose to assemble you're machine yourself. You do indeed care. The inability to extrapolate this to laptop machines seems obtuse.
  - epistasis 5y ago
    No, I still don't care at all about the customizability. I did it mostly because I had to use Windows but didn't want to deal with an OEM's crap ware. The customizability was actually an impediment to get what I wanted: a box. I don't doubt that a huge market of interchangeable parts made this easier. But it's important to separate the ends from the means here, when it comes to customer concerns. The customers that want customizability and upgradability are a vanishingly small slice of customers. (Just as are the ones who want to run Linux, and that small slice does include me.)
    - topspin 5y ago
      "I did it mostly because I had to use Windows but didn't want to deal with an OEM's crap ware." Can you not imagine the vast market of people that might want a laptop not loaded with OEM crap ware? Because that is exactly what could emerge if Framework manages to establish a market of commodity mobile components.
      - epistasis 5y ago
        The simpler route would be to have an OEM that didn't install crap ware, rather than having to order a basket of parts and assemble them. I went the basket route because it required less research for me, because I just wanted to get to my end result as quickly as possible. Grander goals about establishing ecosystems that serve other eventual end goals is not the way that most money is spent. (Though I do spend my money that way in other areas, such as with climate action, the PC market does not matter that much to me.)
- akiselev 5y ago
  > The last desktop build I made 5 years ago hasn't had a single component changed in that entire time. My last desktop build is still going strong nine years later. Swapped out a broken motherboard, upgraded to OCed DDR3, and stuck in a PCIe card for NVMe: good as new.
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    Graphics card I bought 5 years ago - 1060 6GB - is currently worth pretty much the same as it was then, despite the fact that it's used.
- wccrawford 5y ago
  Some don't, sure, but many do. I care. I often swap out parts. My family and friends care, because I help them swap out parts when needed, especially during critical failures when they need it working ASAP and can't risk some corporation formatting the hard drive for no reason. And my coworkers care because they're fellow techies and do this stuff, too.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- caeril 5y ago
  > I certainly don't. Reminder that Apple isn't the problem. Their customers are. I know movie quotes are seriously lowbrow for this audience, but somewhat relevant here, and correct: "That system is our enemy. But when you're inside, you look around, what do you see? Businessmen, teachers, lawyers, carpenters. The very minds of the people we are trying to save. But until we do, these people are still a part of that system and that makes them our enemy." Not to Godwin the thread, but this absurd apologia for anti-freedom products from the standpoint of convenience and apathy reminds me of the old quip about Hitler making the trains run on time. I hope a decade from now you love the soul-crushing Snow Crash-esque dystopia your choices will have created, because you will have absolutely no moral authority to complain about it.
  - leppr 5y ago
    The problem is that for most people there are no clear incentives to making the "good" choices in those matters, while there are many incentives to make the "bad" choice, like gaining an edge in the local competitive market by virtue of a more efficient tool. Prototypical tragedy of the commons.
- NotPractical 5y ago
  Your desktop doesn't have a battery in it, like laptops do. Batteries are the one component in a laptop that is guaranteed to degrade over the course of a few years and eventually make the product unusable. The battery is glued in on the MacBook Pro, so it will eventually become useless. It's as simple as that, and very unfortunate. It's nice to have the option to upgrade the other parts too, though, and why not expect this, if it's clearly possible, as the Framework laptop shows?
- christophilus 5y ago
  My laptop has a single thunderbolt port. I use it for my 5k monitor. If that port goes, I need to get a new laptop. (That new laptop will be the Framework laptop, if they offer a 15" hi-DPI option.) If my laptop was a Framework laptop, I'd just need to buy a pretty inexpensive new port and swap it out. It's a pretty big deal, in my opinion.
  - concinds 5y ago
    USB-C ports (the "internal" ones) are soldered to the motherbord on Framework, unlike on MacBooks, FYI
- sixothree 5y ago
  I am very happy for you to have such good luck.
ashtonkem 5y ago
That’s almost always the reality when a company “can’t” do something.
fabianhjr 5y ago
They care about keeping new laptop sales up and repairable anything goes against that.
bitwize 5y ago
Linus has now invested in Framework, which constrains how he is allowed to review laptops on his channel because of the possibility of a conflict of interest. He says it's worth it to support what he believes is a great company with an awesome product vision.
- jagger27 5y ago
  Linus has shown his flagrant disregard for impartiality or any form of integrity over and over again. Look through the LTT back catalogue and you’ll see that Intel is big sponsor of theirs. The fact that he gives “honest” reviews of Intel products doesn’t magically make it okay. You’d never see Dr. Ian Cutress of AnandTech or Steve from GamersNexus pulling this shit. Of course he makes much more money than both of them combined. Make no mistake that he is an entertainer and a businessman.
  - easton 5y ago
    There is a conflict of interest there, but as a counterpoint, pretty much every time he does a build video it seems like he picks AMD (at least, post Ryzen).
    - onli 5y ago
      Even now with the Framework laptop said he would like to help with making an AMD version possible.
  - onli 5y ago
    GamersNexus is all the time reviewing stuff positively and then taking on the same enterprise as sponsor. They can do that because their viewers know that they will still be very critical with the next product. LTT also really always had the proper balance. Sponsored reviews are marked, sponsored segments are marked, and they are not holding back on negative reviews for long term channel sponsors. They totally ripped into Intel again and again for the failure to compete with AMD, and at the same time have Intel sponsor new hardware upgrades for team members in a sponsored mini-series. Totally fair.
m463 5y ago
I would clarify that - it is not in their best interests to care. what they want is: To sell you a laptop with a current cpu and memory. If you are "price insensitive" they will allow you to get a better cpu or more memory for a significant upcharge. next year, they want: To sell you a laptop with a current cpu and memory. They do not want you upgrading the cpu or memory yourself They do not want you to add next-year's cpu yourself next year.
- qorrect 5y ago
  Yeah came here to say this, I think what they meant to say is "It cant be done at the profit margins we want" not "It cant be done".
- conradfr 5y ago
  I wanted to buy a new laptop last year and was shocked: 1/ A lot of them (most?) had 8Go of RAM. 16Go is rare and 32Go even more. What year is it?! 2/ Most have soldiered RAM without an additional slot.
  - dwaite 5y ago
    Soldered ram significantly decreases repair incidents (from unseated laptop ram) and increases runtime reliability (from direct electrical contact of said ram). It allows for the machine to ship with an optimized ram configuration (lane count, timing). It also reduces the part cost and device footprint.
    - donmcronald 5y ago
      Most RAM comes with a "lifetime" warranty. IMO if the soldered RAM is so great, they should give me a lifetime guarantee they'll replace the MB if the soldered RAM fails. Then I'd be ok with it.
      - dwaite 5y ago
        In the sense that products which do not support third-party repairability should generally have a higher first party warranty requirement, I agree.
slabity 5y ago
Another quote from Linus that's relevant: "Imagine being an engineer at a company at Apple, and it being your job to design the mechanism that makes it so that machine cannot start up unless the chassis is fully sealed. Apple spent actual fucking money making sure that product would not work unless it is in the exact chassis they shipped it in." That goes beyond not caring.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  Where is that quote from? I wasn't able to find it via Google. Anyway, a computer that refuses to turn on after been tampered with does have its uses, particularly if your threat model is government secret services.
  - CubityFirst 5y ago
    From his latest video where he disclosed / explained his philosphy in investing into Framework. > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSxbc1IN9Gg
  - trutannus 5y ago
    > threat model is government secret services Realistically, if your threat model is government secret services, and you're using unmodified consumer grade electronics, then you're in 'danger' no matter what. You can't effectively mitigate a threat at the state level using resources produced under the watchful eye of the same state. All they have to do is ask the producer to swap out the device they gave you with a device that comes compromised out of the box. And that's assuming the tech is perfect. Most likely they just hire someone to defeat the countermeasures. However many resources Apple has, I assure you even the most janky state has more.
    - javajosh 5y ago
      Special hardware seems 007 childish to me. What's better, having a high-tech tricked-out phone/laptop, or to just have a random stock Android with an inoffensive sim card in it? It seems obvious to me that if you're being targeted, tailed and tracked and probed, you've already lost.
agumonkey 5y ago
This effect exists all across society. Some culture seems to drive laziness / selfishness across the (irl) social network. Every would care but nobody can pull the whole network in the right direction. That's how your company doesn't have the right tool, the right app, the right something.
hamilyon2 5y ago
Now we are being told the same about phones

cogman10 5y ago

We've been told for years that "slim and tiny is what you really want!" No, I don't want slim and tiny, I want to be able to replace and upgrade parts. I want a battery I can swap out or RAM I can replace. The problem is that being able to swap parts extends service life of machines. Can't have that when they want you to just buy a new one ever 3 years.

NotPractical 5y ago
As a student, I do want my laptop to be slim and tiny, but I was misled by Apple into thinking slim and tiny is only possible if the laptop isn't at all repairable. Might sell my MacBook Pro for this thing. Though macOS is a guilty pleasure I will miss :( Edit: Also the 16:10 aspect ratio :(
- solarfair 5y ago
  For those who were curious like me, it seems that Hackintosh support is spotty at best.
  - NotPractical 5y ago
    I did a little research on this, and it seems the main (perhaps only?) problem is that all mobo configs come with an 11th gen Intel CPU with Iris Xe graphics.[1] Since the last Intel Macs used 10th gen chips with Iris Plus graphics, and Apple isn't making any more Intel Macs, it's likely that macOS will never support Iris Xe. What a shame. While I do intend to switch to Linux eventually, the ability to run macOS would have made it easier to switch from a MacBook. [1] https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Install-Guide/macos-limits.html#cpu-support https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Install-Guide/macos-limi...
- fartcannon 5y ago
  You won't miss it after a few months in Linux's diverse desktop experience ecosystem.
  - 5y ago

tshaddox 5y ago

Do you actually have any example of a corporation that makes laptops saying that it’s impossible to have slim laptops that are customizable? I would be very surprised if this ever happened, but I’m willing to be proven wrong.

kreeben 5y ago
Do you have an example of a corporation that makes laptops that says it’s possible?
tombert 5y ago
You know, I can't think of a concrete example of that, when pressed, so it is possible this was just something repeated to me by coworkers and friends doing Apple apologia, and I just treated it as a truth. A quick Google doesn't appear to show Apple or any other corporation saying it, so I'll take the L on it. I think my overall point still stands. I still find it irritating that, until very recently, the only way to get a nice, slim laptop was to accept that everything is hard-wired in. Framework proved that that's not correct.
- sneak 5y ago
  FWIW, I also remember this claim being made, but yes, it may have just been Apple apologists in comments, or perhaps Apple wrt the iPhone battery, ages ago.
- powerwaif 5y ago
  You don't need a direct quote proving it. They just do it.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
  Your experience matches my own. I haven't heard it from a company but there are definitely Apple zealots/shills who would say that in threads about right to repair.
  - tombert 5y ago

jeffbee 5y ago

The Framework is larger and weighs more than contemporary machines that have larger displays (e.g. ThinkPad X1 Carbon 9th generation), and it has worse performance and shorter battery life because soldered-in RAM isn't some kind of scam, it's actually much better. In short, it was not a lie that you get smaller, lighter, and better laptops with integration. You do, in fact, get all of those things.

tombert 5y ago
Is that a property of the components being soldered in, or just a property of the fact that Framework cannot get access to the highest quality components on the market? Genuine question, I know very little about electrical components.
- jeffbee 5y ago
  They have to use DDR4-3200 to be able to put the RAM on a stick. Integrated systems can use LPDDR4x-4267. You can't put that on a stick. It's a trade-off. It turns out it takes extra power to drive high-speed signals across long traces with connectors.
  - tombert 5y ago
    That's fair enough. I guess I just hope that we figure out a way to overcome this I suppose.
  - jagger27 5y ago
    I thought the power advantage mostly came from the total bus being half as wide (32-bit LPDDR4X versus 64-bit DDR4). Do you have a reference for why it can’t be put on a removable module?
    - jeffbee 5y ago
      I'm fairly sure the power advantage comes from VDDQ being much lower: .6V for LPDDR4x and 1.2V for DDR4. LPDDR4x is or at least can be 64 bits wide, just like DDR4.

soperj 5y ago

I don't even care about slim. Light yes. Slim doesn't really do a whole lot for me past a certain point (which for me was a decade ago). Being able to replace parts is way more important.

riedel 5y ago

Unfortunately currently framework says it is impossible to have a slim, tiny , customizable laptop with a trackpoint option (due to the keyboard height). Hopefully we will overcome this one too and I would be all in...

wpietri 5y ago
This is the barrier for me too. I'm writing this on a 4-year-old Thinkpad. (The "25th anniversary edition", which has my favorite keyboard.) If somebody figures that out, I'm happy to switch, as my feelings on the Thinkpad line are the same as Doctorow's: formerly great, now sadly declining.
xondono 5y ago
I’ve never understood the trackpoint use case, the (admittedly few) computers I’ve had with it, I just felt it a nuisance in the middle of the keyboard.
- riedel 5y ago
  To the same goes for the trackpad for me. I am always disabling them to avoid accidental contact. I guess this is why we need more customizable devices.

xvector 5y ago

The Framework has half the battery life of similarly sized alternatives. No one was lying to you.

rozap 5y ago
As battery tech gets better, you can replace it. And the glued-in battery in the macbook pro won't be 100% capacity after a bunch of charge/discharges. It's a compromise in the short term maybe, but long term it's so much nicer.
- NullPrefix 5y ago
  >battery in the macbook pro won't be 100% capacity after a bunch of charge/discharges You're supposed to replace the macbook by then.
  - paxys 5y ago
    That's the entire point of framework. Why should I have to replace my macbook when most of it runs perfect except for one part?
    - xvector 5y ago
      But you don't have to replace the MacBook, you can just replace the battery.
      - paxys 5y ago
        On newer Macbooks the battery is literally glued in. An Apple authorized repair center is going to charge you $200+ for a replacement.
        xvector 5y ago
        Wow, didn't know this!
        5y ago

stakkur 5y ago

I love the Framework idea, and believe in repairability. But I’ll be interested to see what Framework does when they have the (enviable) challenge of manufacturing, distributing, and supporting half a billion of them.

azinman2 5y ago

> MacOS is nice, probably my favorite consumer operating system currently available, but Apple's walled garden approach is beyond annoying What’s the walled garden on macOS? You can run anything you want on the Mac.

vorpalhex 5y ago
M1 macs no longer run unsigned code. Apps now check stapled OCSP. There's now a permissions dance to do much of anything.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  M1 Macs run self-signed code, though. You don't need a developer account or Apple keys.
- nomel 5y ago
  > There's now a permissions dance to do much of anything. This is why we don't have secure computing in 2021. Users don't like the usability problems that come with security.
- azinman2 5y ago
  You can turn off both gatekeeper and SIP.
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    There is no longer an official gatekeeper off switch on M1 as far as I know.
    - azinman2 5y ago
      sudo spctl --master-disable

leetcrew 5y ago

I'm impressed that they have managed to take this product to market, and I'm glad that people who value modularity will finally have a viable option. at the same time, I personally don't see what all the fuss is about. you can upgrade both DIMMs, which is cool, but not exactly unheard of these days (I guess it's getting there in an ultraportable?). you're still stuck with DDR4, which is almost EOL, and the max capacity it entails. it's neat that you can customize your IO options, but how many people are going to do that more than once? being constrained by the chipset, it's not like you're going to be able to "upgrade" your IO in the future. the most likely parts of a laptop to fail are the SSD and the battery, both of which are fairly easy to replace on almost all laptops. past that, you aren't really gaining that much when you're locked into whatever CPU/chipset was current when you bought the laptop.

FredFS456 5y ago
Newer laptops are starting to come with soldered SSDs. Macbooks have had non-standard or soldered SSDs for the past 5+ years. Framework is also proactively making documentation, schematics, etc etc available for repair shops.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  >Newer laptops are starting to come with soldered SSDs Which newer laptops? Other than Macs and crappy $199 Walmart grade tablet-chromebook thingamajigs, I don't know any mainstream PC laptop that does that (thankfully). Even super light and super slim laptops still have replaceable storage. Even niche Pocket Computers like the GPD and Valve Steam Deck still have replaceable SSDs. So I don't buy your statement.
  - ixwt 5y ago
    If Macs are doing it, others are soon to follow. Apple has been a trend setter for years. They were belittled for getting rid of the 3.5mm jack, only for flag ship phones to begin doing so.
    - 5y ago

5faulker 5y ago

This looks refreshing. Definitely one of the most interesting find of the year.

hyperpallium2 5y ago

According to Clayton Christensen, there's a cycle between integrated and modular, as consumer perferences change. At first performance is inadequate, but once it is good enough, people base their buying decisions on other things like customization. e.g. By this theory, android would become more popular than iphone. EDIT yes, which happened, favouring the theory; despite iphone still leading performance, due to integration even to cpu and gpu.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>e.g. By this theory, android would become more popular than iphone. Well Android already is more popular than iphone worldwide.
gilbetron 5y ago
Android is more popular, worldwide, than the iphone. It's only in the US and Japan that the iphone is more popular, and in the US, only by a bit.

xondono 5y ago

> we were constantly told by these corporations "it's impossible to have slim, tiny laptops and make them customizable" Because it’s true. The thing is “power users” and “regular users” look at that tradeoff differently. The bad part of economies of scale is that they reward conformity (you can pick your model T in any color, as long as that color is black). The framework would a hard time competing in the general laptop market, but luckily for them, they don’t have to. There’s a niche for specialized products and they are taking advantage. I’ve looking at their laptops since they announced, I’m just hoping they can release a Ryzen one, and then I’ll be on the fence between theirs and whatever Apple has to show for a ARM pro laptop (14”-15”).

jhickok 5y ago
>I’ve looking at their laptops since they announced, I’m just hoping they can release a Ryzen one, and then I’ll be on the fence between theirs and whatever Apple has to show for a ARM pro laptop (14”-15”). I'm in the same boat. While I in principle would love to invest in a powerful AMD laptop with tons of upgradeability with decent Linux support, Apple's next offerings which may give upgraded displays, my favorite trackpads, impressive power and ~20 hours of battery life is very hard to ignore.
NotPractical 5y ago
The only reason these two groups look at it differently is because people in the "regular users" group don't know how bad things are, and how good things could be. What makes you think the Framework would have a hard time competing in the general laptop market? The baseline, preassembled model starts at $1000 and comes with Windows 10 Home. It has a quad-core i5, 8 GB RAM, 256 GB storage, a nice 2256x1504 display, and it's thin and light (1.3kg, 11.7" x 9" x 0.6"). Compare that to your other thin and light options at this pricepoint: XPS 13: $1020 * i5 * 8 GB RAM * 256 GB storage * 1920 x 1200 display * 1.2 kg, 11.6" x 7.8" x 0.6" MacBook Pro: $1300 * M1 * 8 GB RAM * 256 GB storage * 2560 x 1600 display * 1.4kg, 12" x 8.7" x 0.6" This isn't even accounting for repairability as a feature. Consumers don't care about that as it stands, because they don't know they should. But once they realize, it will become a selling point, too.

squarefoot 5y ago

Besides planned obsolescence and other malicious intentions, there are also economies of scale to consider: if making a non modular/repairable laptop cost to a producer just one less buck, that's a lot of money when multiplied by the huge number they sell. That said, I love the concept and plan to buy one next year, when they hopefully will have means to sell in the EU without outrageous shipping+import duties.

anonymousDan 5y ago

I wonder if the slowdown in Moore's law had something to do with it? I mean back in the day the performance gap between a new processor and a 5-10 year old one was so substantial it was hardly worth your while

donmcronald 5y ago

> After seeing the framework, I'm more than a little annoyed that I fell for this. Me too. An I'm annoyed I fell for the lie that board level repair is impossible. What the manufacturers really should be saying is "it's impossible for us" because it's obviously possible for 3rd parties to do it and make a business out of it. I'm willing to pay +$100 for something that's assembled with screws instead of glues.

6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago

It seems more likely that tech has advanced enough for this, rather than there being some greedy phenomenon where it just so happened that nobody thought to do better before framework.

akudha 5y ago

I guess at some level I believed that Why should we believe anything any for-profit company says, without verifying (whenever possible)? Drug companies lie all the time, about having to price their drugs absurdly high. Facebook lies all the time about not being able to fact check, without even attempting to try seriously. And on and on. The insane thing is not that companies lie. It is that the general public has either given up or duped into thinking these companies cannot possible lie. We have created an economic system where profit trumps everything else.

adolph 5y ago

To be fair to "these corporations," the modules available for the Framework are basically built-in USB-C dongles. If you really hate the look of dongles, then thats great. If you only use one thing, like HDMI, then you don't have to cart around a bunch of modules as if they are dongles. The three internal upgrad-ables are nice if you think that things will drastically change in RAM, SSD, or Wifi before the CPU, mainboard or faster connections to faster RAM and SSD make the effect of said upgrad-ables to be gilding a turd. Otherwise periodically buy the midrange storage and allow the secondary market to absorb your environmental guilt.

Decabytes 5y ago

I hope this changes the way that people think about hardware now that Framework has proved that we can have this. Let's just hope they scale

Optimal_Persona 5y ago

HP is a notable exception to this trend, they still make multiple ranges of slim, customizable laptops (at least non-touchscreen models). I oversee IT for an org of ~150 people and have swapped out RAM and M.2 SSDs on multiple recent HP ProBooks, EliteBooks, and a ZBook in the last few weeks with just a Phillips screwdriver and a spudger. Nothing epoxied shut or soldered in place, and the metal cases on recent generations of these HP models are sturdier than the older plastic. Our lead tech has replaced HP laptop batteries, keyboards and displays when needed with no issues. HP is also one of the few brands with backlit keyboards standard on most laptops, even down to the lower-end models I've encountered since 2018. But the Frameworks sure look intriguing!

TriNetra 5y ago

My Dell laptop just cross three years in June and the extended warrantee also got expired. The battery has been deteriorating with only a few mins of backup left. Called up the customer care and they asked to instead contact nearby service center. Tried with multiple in Delhi NCR and no one seem to have a battery – one of them said that no battery is available right now (God knows why?) Finally, somehow got one via Amazon supplied from a state 1600 KMs away from here for about $80 in a week time. It could very well be expensive than the one gotten from the service center but, was left with no option.