7 ms·

Must indeed have been quite naive, working for UAE, a dictatorship, where they still have what basically constitutes a modern form of slavery. Perhaps not even

Must indeed have been quite naive, working for UAE, a dictatorship, where they still have what basically constitutes a modern form of slavery. Perhaps not even former NSA employees are immune to the stuff influencers on social media pump out. Have a nice life in beautiful Abu Dhabi? Why not? It takes little to inform oneself about the country and the people in power though. I cannot understand, how one can move to another country and not look such stuff up. My guess about this is, that other people are simply way less hesitant to make such a move. Then of course there is the payment matter. With proper payment, perhaps we are willing to overlook certain things more easily or to not look too closely in the first place.

dopidopHN 5y ago
His payment do not seems so crazy. 200k for devs and 500k for manager.
- kome 5y ago
  that's crazy high even for most of the US
  - weakfish 5y ago
    The fact that you're being down voted shows the HN bias in action
  - pc86 5y ago
    $200k is not "crazy high" - it's higher than a lot, for sure, but if you're in a HCOL area and work for a big company (not even FAANG-level) you can make that much within a few years at most. FAANG is even higher - median new grad total comp at Google is about $190k. Senior is almost twice that.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      Google is one of the best paying companies for new grads in the world, much better than government work
  - Retric 5y ago
    Top computer security professional can make a lot of money. 10+ years ago I knew someone making 350k in northern VA and a few people over the 200k range. It’s generally an unpleasant job with a small talent pool and plenty of options to move into other areas.
    - echelon 5y ago
      $350k isn't an "incredible" compensation package, and $200k shouldn't be considered high. You can earn that remotely pretty much anywhere working for a FAANG or fintech. I'm making $500k+ in Atlanta as a reference point. As are my coworkers. I'm not super senior, and I'm not bragging. I just want to spread awareness of the existence and obtainability of these salaries.
      - crikeym8 5y ago
        You are hilariously out of touch.
        echelon 5y ago
        How am I out of touch if I'm reporting my actual total comp and that of my coworkers? Some businesses pay more than others. 100 billion, trillion dollar companies can afford to throw money around. They need lots of engineers to keep their services running and will do what it takes to attract them. Just look at levels.fyi! That's real data. You'll see 600k, 700k jobs.
        crikeym8 5y ago
        350k is an incredible amount of money. You're not adding much to this discussion other than bragging about how much you make.
        echelon 5y ago
        I'm telling people to shop around. And I've always told people to shop around: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28561460 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28561460 Etc. all throughout my post history. People in Atlanta in particular aren't aware of these salaries and they need to know. I'll tell people more details if they reach out. It behooves me to get people paid more in Atlanta. It drives up market rates and brings more talent here. It also brings more high quality work and venture capital. Before the pandemic, I spent a lot of time recruiting and telling people about this f2f. My improv buddies, people at bars, literally anyone who also worked in software. If you aren't making this money and aren't happy, keep looking. There are places that are trying to fill headcount that will pay this salary. Conversely, there are a lot of new startups that can't compete in the salary dimension and will use other perks such as 4-day work weeks, work abroad, and other desirable things that drive recruitment and retention. There are very few jobs that aren't plumbing crud at some level. Find something that gives you what you want in exchange for crud plumbing. When I start a company I likely can't afford this kind of comp either, so I'll do my best to make it up with other tangible perks. Like 4-day weeks and interesting domain work. Even if you're not making these wages now, it doesn't mean you can't or won't. I want all of us to make bank. It gives us FIRE, financial mobility, ability to pursue bootstrapped startups, etc. Please don't normalize lower pay. It hurts us all.
  - kodah 5y ago
    Being a SWE with even an implementor background in security is quite lucrative. Someone has to make all the crypto libraries that mathematicians come up with.
- mikeyouse 5y ago
  Not sure if UAE is the same but my friends who worked in Saudi paid $0 income tax (some token amount of US tax to avoid the gaze of the IRS) and had their house and car arranged by the company. So a $200k salary in SA was much more akin to a $350k salary in California in terms of the amount of money you’d save.
  - singlow 5y ago
    If you are American you still pay us taxes, no matter where you live. And you may need to report the house and car as taxable income as well.
    - aorth 5y ago
      > If you are American you still pay us taxes, no matter where you live. You have to file, yes, but you don't necessarily have to pay. For Federal taxes there is the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. As long as you are outside of the US for at least 330 days in a year you can exclude up to $108,700 (for 2021) in foreign earnings. There are a few other scenarios too.
      - singlow 5y ago
        In this case you would pay. No FEIC if you don't pay taxes in the country where you earned the income. The UAE doesn't have a federal income tax and has no tax treaty with the US so several boxes are missing for FEIC.
        tdfx 5y ago
        > No FEIC if you don't pay taxes in the country where you earned the income That's technically only true for one of the two possible tests for FEIE. The presence test doesn't require any taxes to be paid anywhere else, and the bona fide resident test only requires that your "tax home" is in a different country.
- Taylor_OD 5y ago
  I'm not 100% sure but for former NSA folks I think that is pretty great. I don't think the NSA pays all that well. At least not if you are used to fang salaries.
londons_explore 5y ago
The same moral reasoning can make nearly anything immoral. For example, is it morally right to pay taxes to Uncle Sam, knowing he will use them to pay for drone strikes in wars he started killing millions in the third world? Is the only moral option to give up ones citizenship and move to another country? Yet, very very few people do this. Is writing code for the UAE to help them kill people so different to paying money to the USA to help them kill people?
- pc86 5y ago
  If you're an American citizen it absolutely is.
- badRNG 5y ago
  I find value in being ethically consistent, but I don't care for arguments like these. Another variation of this is "why should I care about ethical issue 'X' since we all purchase goods and services that enable child or exploitative labor in another part of the world?" People can care about multiple issues at the same time. The fact that I, by necessity, have to participate in systems that enable oppression doesn't mean I should throw my hands up and disregard ethical decision making entirely. I'm not saying it's happening in this case, but often these types of arguments do little more than serve as reactionary push-back against those seeking to solve issue "X" rather than being borne out of actual concern for the issue they've propped up in its place or some sort of concern about ethical consistency.
afpx 5y ago
If you're in Northern Virginia, you'll see that many ex-NSA employees have evolved to also sell personal location data to Saudi Arabia and other despots. There are a dozen of these companies all working in the "ad" space.
behringer 5y ago
Honestly it takes a certain kind of person to work in government in the first place. That person is not you or me.
tw04 5y ago
I can believe it. I remember hurting my back right before a trip to Singapore. I was prescribed hydrocodone by my doctor knowing that was the only chance I had of getting any sleep on the flight. I land and my coworker reminds Me Singapore has death penalty level punishment for “hard” drugs so I immediately flushed it all down the toilet despite having a valid prescription which probably would have been fine. It’s easy to forget to do research on a country before you go there when it’s not something you’d consider “third world”.
shell0x 5y ago
The US doesn't have the moral high ground either. Every country has issues. As a German who's currently in Dubai, I find it amusing when an American judges the UAE. The US has tons of undocumented/illegal immigrants which live in horrible conditions, but companies still employ them because they're cheap. How's that not modern slavery? How about all the H1B abuses? In the UAE some companies may abuse the situation of foreign workers too, but the government clearly says you should not hand out your passport. My American coworkers get taxed on their worldwide income, which basically only one other country does. Dictatorship? The US started killed so many innocent people in the Middle East to get their hands on the oil.
- beckman466 5y ago
  > The US doesn't have the moral high ground either. > The US started killed so many innocent people in the Middle East to get their hands on the oil. Thanks for writing your comment, i was thinking of writing something similar. > I find it amusing when an American judges the UAE. yeah i don't understand how Americans gloss over the myriad of contradictions, and just the overall violence, of US foreign policy i'd like to leave this important video here for anyone who hasn't yet seen it: The CIA is a Terrorist Organization // https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2khAmMTAjI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2khAmMTAjI
- BTCOG 5y ago
  To be very clear, to me the NSA or UAE NESA are one in the same. I wasn't pointing out one side being better than the other. He went from one, to another. NO government has any moral high ground, or character in my book. A state is a state. A state seeks to control and manipulate it's populace and others for it's own means. Period. And any government employee doing something as "just a job" for a state which infringes on any rights of a citizen is in the same book to me. For example, an IRS worker isn't any better than an NSA. One is spying on your finances and stealing your money, the other is surveiliing in the name of whatever hot-button lie of the month/year is up next. CSAM today!

dopidopHN 5y ago

His payment do not seems so crazy. 200k for devs and 500k for manager.

kome 5y ago
that's crazy high even for most of the US
- weakfish 5y ago
  The fact that you're being down voted shows the HN bias in action
- pc86 5y ago
  $200k is not "crazy high" - it's higher than a lot, for sure, but if you're in a HCOL area and work for a big company (not even FAANG-level) you can make that much within a few years at most. FAANG is even higher - median new grad total comp at Google is about $190k. Senior is almost twice that.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Google is one of the best paying companies for new grads in the world, much better than government work
- Retric 5y ago
  Top computer security professional can make a lot of money. 10+ years ago I knew someone making 350k in northern VA and a few people over the 200k range. It’s generally an unpleasant job with a small talent pool and plenty of options to move into other areas.
  - echelon 5y ago
    $350k isn't an "incredible" compensation package, and $200k shouldn't be considered high. You can earn that remotely pretty much anywhere working for a FAANG or fintech. I'm making $500k+ in Atlanta as a reference point. As are my coworkers. I'm not super senior, and I'm not bragging. I just want to spread awareness of the existence and obtainability of these salaries.
    - crikeym8 5y ago
      You are hilariously out of touch.
      - echelon 5y ago
        How am I out of touch if I'm reporting my actual total comp and that of my coworkers? Some businesses pay more than others. 100 billion, trillion dollar companies can afford to throw money around. They need lots of engineers to keep their services running and will do what it takes to attract them. Just look at levels.fyi! That's real data. You'll see 600k, 700k jobs.
        crikeym8 5y ago
        350k is an incredible amount of money. You're not adding much to this discussion other than bragging about how much you make.
        echelon 5y ago
        I'm telling people to shop around. And I've always told people to shop around: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28561460 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28561460 Etc. all throughout my post history. People in Atlanta in particular aren't aware of these salaries and they need to know. I'll tell people more details if they reach out. It behooves me to get people paid more in Atlanta. It drives up market rates and brings more talent here. It also brings more high quality work and venture capital. Before the pandemic, I spent a lot of time recruiting and telling people about this f2f. My improv buddies, people at bars, literally anyone who also worked in software. If you aren't making this money and aren't happy, keep looking. There are places that are trying to fill headcount that will pay this salary. Conversely, there are a lot of new startups that can't compete in the salary dimension and will use other perks such as 4-day work weeks, work abroad, and other desirable things that drive recruitment and retention. There are very few jobs that aren't plumbing crud at some level. Find something that gives you what you want in exchange for crud plumbing. When I start a company I likely can't afford this kind of comp either, so I'll do my best to make it up with other tangible perks. Like 4-day weeks and interesting domain work. Even if you're not making these wages now, it doesn't mean you can't or won't. I want all of us to make bank. It gives us FIRE, financial mobility, ability to pursue bootstrapped startups, etc. Please don't normalize lower pay. It hurts us all.
- kodah 5y ago
  Being a SWE with even an implementor background in security is quite lucrative. Someone has to make all the crypto libraries that mathematicians come up with.
mikeyouse 5y ago
Not sure if UAE is the same but my friends who worked in Saudi paid $0 income tax (some token amount of US tax to avoid the gaze of the IRS) and had their house and car arranged by the company. So a $200k salary in SA was much more akin to a $350k salary in California in terms of the amount of money you’d save.
- singlow 5y ago
  If you are American you still pay us taxes, no matter where you live. And you may need to report the house and car as taxable income as well.
  - aorth 5y ago
    > If you are American you still pay us taxes, no matter where you live. You have to file, yes, but you don't necessarily have to pay. For Federal taxes there is the Foreign Earned Income Exclusion. As long as you are outside of the US for at least 330 days in a year you can exclude up to $108,700 (for 2021) in foreign earnings. There are a few other scenarios too.
    - singlow 5y ago
      In this case you would pay. No FEIC if you don't pay taxes in the country where you earned the income. The UAE doesn't have a federal income tax and has no tax treaty with the US so several boxes are missing for FEIC.
      - tdfx 5y ago
        > No FEIC if you don't pay taxes in the country where you earned the income That's technically only true for one of the two possible tests for FEIE. The presence test doesn't require any taxes to be paid anywhere else, and the bona fide resident test only requires that your "tax home" is in a different country.
Taylor_OD 5y ago
I'm not 100% sure but for former NSA folks I think that is pretty great. I don't think the NSA pays all that well. At least not if you are used to fang salaries.

londons_explore 5y ago

The same moral reasoning can make nearly anything immoral. For example, is it morally right to pay taxes to Uncle Sam, knowing he will use them to pay for drone strikes in wars he started killing millions in the third world? Is the only moral option to give up ones citizenship and move to another country? Yet, very very few people do this. Is writing code for the UAE to help them kill people so different to paying money to the USA to help them kill people?

pc86 5y ago
If you're an American citizen it absolutely is.
badRNG 5y ago
I find value in being ethically consistent, but I don't care for arguments like these. Another variation of this is "why should I care about ethical issue 'X' since we all purchase goods and services that enable child or exploitative labor in another part of the world?" People can care about multiple issues at the same time. The fact that I, by necessity, have to participate in systems that enable oppression doesn't mean I should throw my hands up and disregard ethical decision making entirely. I'm not saying it's happening in this case, but often these types of arguments do little more than serve as reactionary push-back against those seeking to solve issue "X" rather than being borne out of actual concern for the issue they've propped up in its place or some sort of concern about ethical consistency.

afpx 5y ago

If you're in Northern Virginia, you'll see that many ex-NSA employees have evolved to also sell personal location data to Saudi Arabia and other despots. There are a dozen of these companies all working in the "ad" space.

behringer 5y ago

Honestly it takes a certain kind of person to work in government in the first place. That person is not you or me.

tw04 5y ago

I can believe it. I remember hurting my back right before a trip to Singapore. I was prescribed hydrocodone by my doctor knowing that was the only chance I had of getting any sleep on the flight. I land and my coworker reminds Me Singapore has death penalty level punishment for “hard” drugs so I immediately flushed it all down the toilet despite having a valid prescription which probably would have been fine. It’s easy to forget to do research on a country before you go there when it’s not something you’d consider “third world”.

shell0x 5y ago

The US doesn't have the moral high ground either. Every country has issues. As a German who's currently in Dubai, I find it amusing when an American judges the UAE. The US has tons of undocumented/illegal immigrants which live in horrible conditions, but companies still employ them because they're cheap. How's that not modern slavery? How about all the H1B abuses? In the UAE some companies may abuse the situation of foreign workers too, but the government clearly says you should not hand out your passport. My American coworkers get taxed on their worldwide income, which basically only one other country does. Dictatorship? The US started killed so many innocent people in the Middle East to get their hands on the oil.

beckman466 5y ago
> The US doesn't have the moral high ground either. > The US started killed so many innocent people in the Middle East to get their hands on the oil. Thanks for writing your comment, i was thinking of writing something similar. > I find it amusing when an American judges the UAE. yeah i don't understand how Americans gloss over the myriad of contradictions, and just the overall violence, of US foreign policy i'd like to leave this important video here for anyone who hasn't yet seen it: The CIA is a Terrorist Organization // https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2khAmMTAjI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2khAmMTAjI
BTCOG 5y ago
To be very clear, to me the NSA or UAE NESA are one in the same. I wasn't pointing out one side being better than the other. He went from one, to another. NO government has any moral high ground, or character in my book. A state is a state. A state seeks to control and manipulate it's populace and others for it's own means. Period. And any government employee doing something as "just a job" for a state which infringes on any rights of a citizen is in the same book to me. For example, an IRS worker isn't any better than an NSA. One is spying on your finances and stealing your money, the other is surveiliing in the name of whatever hot-button lie of the month/year is up next. CSAM today!