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> There were no red flags because I was so naive. But… there’s a ton of red flags [in retrospect]…. [For example] when you’re in the interview process and you’r

by noptd 5y ago

> There were no red flags because I was so naive. But… there’s a ton of red flags [in retrospect]…. [For example] when you’re in the interview process and you’re talking about defending [the UAE] and … doing tracking of terrorist activity,… but then you’re [being asked] very specific questions about integrated enterprise Windows environments and [how you might hack them]. Guess who doesn’t have those type of networks? Terrorist organizations. So why [is the recruiter] asking these kinds of questions…? > So had I been really cognizant of where or what I was stepping into, I probably would have known during even the interview process that something is a little bit amiss here. Given the number of trainings that he would have attended while working at the NSA, I find it hard to believe that his OpSec radar wouldn't have been going off at that point. Having read the remainder of the interview, IMO the entire series of events can be summarized as follows: >Things were fishy from the start, but the compensation was good so I was happy to collect a paycheck until all plausible deniability went out the window. Knowing the gravy train wouldn't last forever and that the US govt would one day come knocking, I denied a position at DarkMatter and moved back to the states.

qeternity 5y ago
> Given the number of trainings that he would have attended while working at the NSA, I find it hard to believe that his OpSec radar wouldn't have been going off at that point. These types of training tend to be very specific, and certainly do not involve questioning chain of command. This is why he immediately noticed things like possible surveillance, but it took him much longer to question the mission and his commanding officer.
- noptd 5y ago
  >These types of training tend to be very specific, and certainly do not involve questioning chain of command. True, but this excerpt was describing his initial interview process with CyberPoint. I agree with the general sentiment though.
- sneak 5y ago
  I think a lot of the external view of the NSA's training is tinted by Snowden's books and writing. It is important to remember that Snowden was also CIA before he worked at NSA, and went through full CIA training for CIA staff stationed in foreign embassies (he was in Geneva, and I think Japan?).
kome 5y ago
imho NSA people is technically skilled but politically naive... and that's clearly why they work for NSA in the first place... Technical training can make you good a something, but it doesn't necessarily make you aware of why you are doing something and what are the political consequences. That's why also social science education and critical thinking is needed... to avoid those kind of situations.
- atlasunshrugged 5y ago
  I don't think that's the only reason people work for the NSA. Lots of people who are patriots (in their mind) go because they think it's a good cause. And I'm sure there are also political operators who do it because they think it's a way up whatever ladder they're climbing.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- ganoushoreilly 5y ago
  I would argue it's pretty naive to assume the positions of people internal to an organization such as the NSA. The NSA, just like the D.o.D., and the greater government employs people from all walks of life. They have representation of almost all major religions, atheists, democrats, republicans, libertarians, etc. It's no less diverse than other offices. I would also argue that the number of college educated to include PHD's is astronomical. Plenty of critical thinking happens to avoid situations. In this case, a service member that probably made 50k all in, was given a juicy contracting offer above the local market rate for the time (though for good operators, $200k local wasn't unheard of at the time). He saw the money, went to Dubai. Everyone in the agency knew of this contract, almost everyone said the same thing.. Screw that. A few took it, cashed in for a year or two, then left. The fringe number of people that took this contract are far fewer than the vast number that said no. I know I said no, and about a dozen others that said the same. On the same shoe I knew two that did, most didn't last over a year.
zelphirkalt 5y ago
Must indeed have been quite naive, working for UAE, a dictatorship, where they still have what basically constitutes a modern form of slavery. Perhaps not even former NSA employees are immune to the stuff influencers on social media pump out. Have a nice life in beautiful Abu Dhabi? Why not? It takes little to inform oneself about the country and the people in power though. I cannot understand, how one can move to another country and not look such stuff up. My guess about this is, that other people are simply way less hesitant to make such a move. Then of course there is the payment matter. With proper payment, perhaps we are willing to overlook certain things more easily or to not look too closely in the first place.
- dopidopHN 5y ago
  His payment do not seems so crazy. 200k for devs and 500k for manager.
  - kome 5y ago
    that's crazy high even for most of the US
    - weakfish 5y ago
      The fact that you're being down voted shows the HN bias in action
    - pc86 5y ago
      $200k is not "crazy high" - it's higher than a lot, for sure, but if you're in a HCOL area and work for a big company (not even FAANG-level) you can make that much within a few years at most. FAANG is even higher - median new grad total comp at Google is about $190k. Senior is almost twice that.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - whimsicalism 5y ago
everdrive 5y ago
>Given the number of trainings that he would have attended while working at the NSA, I find it hard to believe that his OpSec radar wouldn't have been going off at that point. I've seen a similar line of thinking with regard to federal employees (who should have known better) and were successfully recruited, but then later arrested. You have to wonder to what degree they're telling the truth, or to what degree they really had blinders due to being so successfully charmed. Either way, this is common. I think it's hard for people to say "yes, I knew deep down this was a problem but hoped it wasn't true somehow."
jrochkind1 5y ago
> Given the number of trainings that he would have attended while working at the NSA Right, so he was used to doing sketchy things and not questioning the ethics of what his superiors told him to do, just the right kind/level of sketchy for the right people, and didn't realize this was going to be a different kind/level of sketchy that would ultimately make him uncomfortable.
BTCOG 5y ago
Bingo. This is essentially the "PR" cover story that all ousted government employees seem to use once they're caught out. "Oh, I didn't realize I was even working for a murderous regime! I liked the paycheck though!"

by noptd 5y ago

qeternity 5y ago

> Given the number of trainings that he would have attended while working at the NSA, I find it hard to believe that his OpSec radar wouldn't have been going off at that point. These types of training tend to be very specific, and certainly do not involve questioning chain of command. This is why he immediately noticed things like possible surveillance, but it took him much longer to question the mission and his commanding officer.

noptd 5y ago
>These types of training tend to be very specific, and certainly do not involve questioning chain of command. True, but this excerpt was describing his initial interview process with CyberPoint. I agree with the general sentiment though.
sneak 5y ago
I think a lot of the external view of the NSA's training is tinted by Snowden's books and writing. It is important to remember that Snowden was also CIA before he worked at NSA, and went through full CIA training for CIA staff stationed in foreign embassies (he was in Geneva, and I think Japan?).

kome 5y ago

imho NSA people is technically skilled but politically naive... and that's clearly why they work for NSA in the first place... Technical training can make you good a something, but it doesn't necessarily make you aware of why you are doing something and what are the political consequences. That's why also social science education and critical thinking is needed... to avoid those kind of situations.

atlasunshrugged 5y ago
I don't think that's the only reason people work for the NSA. Lots of people who are patriots (in their mind) go because they think it's a good cause. And I'm sure there are also political operators who do it because they think it's a way up whatever ladder they're climbing.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
ganoushoreilly 5y ago
I would argue it's pretty naive to assume the positions of people internal to an organization such as the NSA. The NSA, just like the D.o.D., and the greater government employs people from all walks of life. They have representation of almost all major religions, atheists, democrats, republicans, libertarians, etc. It's no less diverse than other offices. I would also argue that the number of college educated to include PHD's is astronomical. Plenty of critical thinking happens to avoid situations. In this case, a service member that probably made 50k all in, was given a juicy contracting offer above the local market rate for the time (though for good operators, $200k local wasn't unheard of at the time). He saw the money, went to Dubai. Everyone in the agency knew of this contract, almost everyone said the same thing.. Screw that. A few took it, cashed in for a year or two, then left. The fringe number of people that took this contract are far fewer than the vast number that said no. I know I said no, and about a dozen others that said the same. On the same shoe I knew two that did, most didn't last over a year.

zelphirkalt 5y ago

Must indeed have been quite naive, working for UAE, a dictatorship, where they still have what basically constitutes a modern form of slavery. Perhaps not even former NSA employees are immune to the stuff influencers on social media pump out. Have a nice life in beautiful Abu Dhabi? Why not? It takes little to inform oneself about the country and the people in power though. I cannot understand, how one can move to another country and not look such stuff up. My guess about this is, that other people are simply way less hesitant to make such a move. Then of course there is the payment matter. With proper payment, perhaps we are willing to overlook certain things more easily or to not look too closely in the first place.

dopidopHN 5y ago
His payment do not seems so crazy. 200k for devs and 500k for manager.
- kome 5y ago
  that's crazy high even for most of the US
  - weakfish 5y ago
    The fact that you're being down voted shows the HN bias in action
  - pc86 5y ago
    $200k is not "crazy high" - it's higher than a lot, for sure, but if you're in a HCOL area and work for a big company (not even FAANG-level) you can make that much within a few years at most. FAANG is even higher - median new grad total comp at Google is about $190k. Senior is almost twice that.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - whimsicalism 5y ago

everdrive 5y ago

>Given the number of trainings that he would have attended while working at the NSA, I find it hard to believe that his OpSec radar wouldn't have been going off at that point. I've seen a similar line of thinking with regard to federal employees (who should have known better) and were successfully recruited, but then later arrested. You have to wonder to what degree they're telling the truth, or to what degree they really had blinders due to being so successfully charmed. Either way, this is common. I think it's hard for people to say "yes, I knew deep down this was a problem but hoped it wasn't true somehow."

jrochkind1 5y ago

> Given the number of trainings that he would have attended while working at the NSA Right, so he was used to doing sketchy things and not questioning the ethics of what his superiors told him to do, just the right kind/level of sketchy for the right people, and didn't realize this was going to be a different kind/level of sketchy that would ultimately make him uncomfortable.

BTCOG 5y ago

Bingo. This is essentially the "PR" cover story that all ousted government employees seem to use once they're caught out. "Oh, I didn't realize I was even working for a murderous regime! I liked the paycheck though!"