4 ms·

Yes, but you don't have to be convicted. An arrest, with or without charge, is a black mark to many, many people. (This attitude is at its worst when considerin

Yes, but you don't have to be convicted. An arrest, with or without charge, is a black mark to many, many people. (This attitude is at its worst when considering prison conditions. No-one is dehumanized more than a prison inmate in this country.)

adventured 5y ago
Sure, consider the human rights abuse that is the online mug shots industry in the US for example. There's no sympathy for those people, the assumption is guilt. The superficial tough on crime types revel in the notion that those people get publicly humiliated (and it fulfills the deranged lust for snooping, nosing into other people's business). Mug shots don't tell the story of whether someone is innocent or guilty and yet your photo might end up on the Internet regardless.
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > the human rights abuse that is the online mug shots industry The way we treat people with a mug shot is horrendous. But mug shots per se serve a vital purpose: they are a public record of persons the state is holding. That makes “disappearing” them later on harder.
  - adventured 5y ago
    I certainly agree. I think it makes sense to photograph anyone arrested, for numerous logical reasons (not least of which is because I don't trust the authorities; the photos should also be protected from tampering by the same authorities). My contention is of course that mass posting them online is a human rights abuse. I think it's a form of cruel and unusual punishment, where someone has not necessarily been found guilty of any crime and they're being assaulted by the state (their image, reputation). My opinion is that online mug shots rather blatantly violate the eighth amendment.
    - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
      > mass posting them online is a human rights abuse Where would you prefer they be posted? Would you be prohibited from photographing them? The core problem is how we treat people accused--not even convicted--of crimes. Socially. But also legally. That's a better place to address the issue than trying to gerrymander the Eighth Amendment.
  - mywittyname 5y ago
    The way mug shots are handled goes back to this shitty attitude that police have regarding citizens' rights. Any time they are legally forced to do something, they try to make it as humiliating as possible as an additional punishment. Any sane government would find a way to both protect the identity of the accused while also ensuring the the appropriate family members can get access to this information if necessary. While we're at it, the way normal people get arrested is fucking horrible too. It's not like in the movies where they lightly cuff your hands together. The police have specifically designed their handcuff procedures to be as painful as possible and to make it look like you're resisting, when in fact, you're just responding to pain and trying to maintain balance.
  - tomp 5y ago
    Not sure this is a good argument. If I were an oppressive state, I'd make sure to publish mugshots of most people, to create a "public trail" of "we don't disappear people" but only actually disappear those few that I really wanted to disappear.
- tlrobinson 5y ago
  We should start a trend of posting fake mugshots of ourselves online for plausible deniability. Call it #mugshotchallenge.
pessimizer 5y ago
I think the worst of it is in jail conditions. Most people in jail haven't been convicted of a crime (although jails do double duty for short term sentences, which is another wtf.) Jails should be a comfortable as dorm rooms, and have internet and phone. You're put in jail so you don't leave; the rationale isn't supposed to be to punish, but somehow it still is.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  Jails ARE absolutely supposed to punish people kept inside. They aren't called penitentiary for nothing, literally meaning "a place for punishment" [1] [1]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/penitentiary https://www.etymonline.com/word/penitentiary
  - drdec 5y ago
    I believe the GP was making a distinction between jail and prison. Jail is where you are held until your trial or you make bail. Prison is where you are sent after you are convicted. A penitentiary would be a prison, not a jail.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      If he was talking about it in this sense, I agree. However in my native language these terms are used interchangeably, both meaning "prison".
      - drdec 5y ago
        To be fair, it is not unusual for native English speakers to conflate the two words as well.
    - javajosh 5y ago
      Even prison should be without "cruel and unusual punishment", with emphasis on "cruel". For example, letting prisoners die in extreme heat is cruelty on its face. John Oliver had a thing on this recently[1]. Looks like Texas has done the minimal thing, which is effectively nothing [2]. 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fiRDJLjL94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fiRDJLjL94 2 - https://www.texastribune.org/2021/05/14/texas-prison-air-conditioning-legislature/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/05/14/texas-prison-air-con...

adventured 5y ago

Sure, consider the human rights abuse that is the online mug shots industry in the US for example. There's no sympathy for those people, the assumption is guilt. The superficial tough on crime types revel in the notion that those people get publicly humiliated (and it fulfills the deranged lust for snooping, nosing into other people's business). Mug shots don't tell the story of whether someone is innocent or guilty and yet your photo might end up on the Internet regardless.

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> the human rights abuse that is the online mug shots industry The way we treat people with a mug shot is horrendous. But mug shots per se serve a vital purpose: they are a public record of persons the state is holding. That makes “disappearing” them later on harder.
- adventured 5y ago
  I certainly agree. I think it makes sense to photograph anyone arrested, for numerous logical reasons (not least of which is because I don't trust the authorities; the photos should also be protected from tampering by the same authorities). My contention is of course that mass posting them online is a human rights abuse. I think it's a form of cruel and unusual punishment, where someone has not necessarily been found guilty of any crime and they're being assaulted by the state (their image, reputation). My opinion is that online mug shots rather blatantly violate the eighth amendment.
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > mass posting them online is a human rights abuse Where would you prefer they be posted? Would you be prohibited from photographing them? The core problem is how we treat people accused--not even convicted--of crimes. Socially. But also legally. That's a better place to address the issue than trying to gerrymander the Eighth Amendment.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  The way mug shots are handled goes back to this shitty attitude that police have regarding citizens' rights. Any time they are legally forced to do something, they try to make it as humiliating as possible as an additional punishment. Any sane government would find a way to both protect the identity of the accused while also ensuring the the appropriate family members can get access to this information if necessary. While we're at it, the way normal people get arrested is fucking horrible too. It's not like in the movies where they lightly cuff your hands together. The police have specifically designed their handcuff procedures to be as painful as possible and to make it look like you're resisting, when in fact, you're just responding to pain and trying to maintain balance.
- tomp 5y ago
  Not sure this is a good argument. If I were an oppressive state, I'd make sure to publish mugshots of most people, to create a "public trail" of "we don't disappear people" but only actually disappear those few that I really wanted to disappear.
tlrobinson 5y ago
We should start a trend of posting fake mugshots of ourselves online for plausible deniability. Call it #mugshotchallenge.

pessimizer 5y ago

I think the worst of it is in jail conditions. Most people in jail haven't been convicted of a crime (although jails do double duty for short term sentences, which is another wtf.) Jails should be a comfortable as dorm rooms, and have internet and phone. You're put in jail so you don't leave; the rationale isn't supposed to be to punish, but somehow it still is.

Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
Jails ARE absolutely supposed to punish people kept inside. They aren't called penitentiary for nothing, literally meaning "a place for punishment" [1] [1]: https://www.etymonline.com/word/penitentiary https://www.etymonline.com/word/penitentiary
- drdec 5y ago
  I believe the GP was making a distinction between jail and prison. Jail is where you are held until your trial or you make bail. Prison is where you are sent after you are convicted. A penitentiary would be a prison, not a jail.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    If he was talking about it in this sense, I agree. However in my native language these terms are used interchangeably, both meaning "prison".
    - drdec 5y ago
      To be fair, it is not unusual for native English speakers to conflate the two words as well.
  - javajosh 5y ago
    Even prison should be without "cruel and unusual punishment", with emphasis on "cruel". For example, letting prisoners die in extreme heat is cruelty on its face. John Oliver had a thing on this recently[1]. Looks like Texas has done the minimal thing, which is effectively nothing [2]. 1 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fiRDJLjL94 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fiRDJLjL94 2 - https://www.texastribune.org/2021/05/14/texas-prison-air-conditioning-legislature/ https://www.texastribune.org/2021/05/14/texas-prison-air-con...