6 ms·

As an American who has lived abroad for a significant number of years and returned recently, it becomes abundantly clear, that if we only measure by the amount

by titzer 5y ago

As an American who has lived abroad for a significant number of years and returned recently, it becomes abundantly clear, that if we only measure by the amount of time spent bitching, moaning, and fighting, Americans hate each other more than anything else on this planet. Disease, war, famine, injustice, genocide, plague? None will garner as much sincere unflagging burning rage as what those other fuckers did or said, or would do or say, because hate, hate, hate, hate. It's worse than football teams or some rivalry with the neighboring state. At this point, people are literally killing themselves and others to own the other side. And maybe both sides are enjoying this thrill a little too much.

civilized 5y ago
A lot of people seem fundamentally ridiculous these days. Silly, frivolous, unserious, out of touch with reality. They should know better, and they don't care that they should know better. They're motivated by something else. I don't know if that's a new thing or not, but that's how it has seemed to me during this pandemic. Quite a few people have gone without an easy, safe, miraculously effective vaccine - a marvel of the latest science, freely available at their fingertips - and literally died. As far as I can tell, their deepest motivation to do this was to express their distrust of the establishment and/or stick it to their political opponents. In a "lol nothing matters" world, all that matters to these people is whether they get to stick it to the man. Nothing bad can really happen, so no real thought is needed to stay safe. It's fine to just believe the first entertainingly outrageous quack theory that flatters your sentiments or ideology or tribe. It's as if they were interrupted by a gunman while watching TV, and made no motion to defend themselves, assuming the gun pointed at their heads was part of the show.
- TheBlight 5y ago
  I don't think you have a complete understanding of the larger opposing point of view that you think you do. What you're regurgitating is a media enhanced narrative. You are upset with a caricature.
  - civilized 5y ago
    Nah, I've talked to enough of these types to know the information and reasoning they're relying on. One of my personal quirks is a lifelong fascination with crackpots. And for what it's worth, I have some heterodox opinions on certain COVID-related topics. For example the case against ivermectin has been greatly overstated, although there is still room for reasonable doubt about its efficacy. Not everyone with a streak of independent thought on COVID is a fool, but essentially all the vaccine haters are. Drunk on sentimental nonsense and ideological fantasy, with just enough fact mixed in to make the toxic brew superficially plausible. The 1/6 rioters were much the same.
    - chitowneats 5y ago
      If you can admit the discourse around Ivermectin is confused, then perhaps you can see why some arrive at the wrong conclusion with respect to mRNA vaccines. Is it possible that some are not as equipped as you are to discern the signal within the noise? Is it possible you are incorrect about one or more of your heterodox opinions? The type of sneering you're engaging in is unbelievably counterproductive. Uncivilized, even.
      - civilized 5y ago
        I wouldn't tell my aunt that it's idiotic to blindly believe spike protein sheds from the vaccinated and harms people, or that VAERS has recorded thousands of vaccine-caused deaths, because she read it on FB. But I do think it's idiotic to believe that, and every once in a while I'm going to say so. It's not just some innocent difficulty with finding the signal in the noise. It's sentimental, ideological delusion, and it's rotten to the core. And deep down, I believe many of them do know better, even if they stopped caring years ago. I won't pointlessly anger them by saying so to their faces, but I also won't patronize them by pretending otherwise.
        chitowneats 5y ago
        Most people I know would say it's idiotic to use "horse paste" as an early prophylactic against covid, despite how much context such a statement obscures. You are making a mistake generalizing the case of your aunt to the rest of society. You come off as quite emotional about it, frankly. Sure, maybe you can psychoanalyze her accurately given your close relation. It's not helping your argument in a public setting like HN.
int_19h 5y ago
As a non-American who lives in US these days, I can assure you that there's nothing unique about the Americans' ability to hate each other. In terms of literally killing people over that, you guys are definitely far behind.
- nradov 5y ago
  More Americans should visit the Balkans and learn the regional history. It's a beautiful area, and gives some perspective on the universal human capacity for irrational hatred. What I've never understood is how people can get so outraged over even minor political differences. If someone agrees with you 80% then that's an ally, not an enemy.
  - int_19h 5y ago
    Pretty much any region has plenty of history that Americans should reflect on. E.g. whenever the American media and/or pundits talk about the "civil war", it's inevitably framed in comparison to the US Civil War. Except that was a very atypical "civil war", as those things go - fought by well-established governments using mostly conventional armies. And while it's still the most devastating war ever fought on US soil, its casualty numbers are minuscule by the world standards of what civil strife looks like. To find out more about what an actual civil war looks like, one might explore history of civil wars in e.g. Russia, China, or even Finland.
    - angelzen 5y ago
      Spain, Yugoslavia, Lebanon.
  - Clubber 5y ago
    Here's a list of characteristics of a cult. You'll probably recognize some of these in our modern (since about 1992) political discourse. http://cultresearch.org/help/characteristics-associated-with-cults/ http://cultresearch.org/help/characteristics-associated-with... - Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. - The group has a polarized, us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. - The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group. - The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and control members. Often this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. - Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
Clubber 5y ago
>because hate, hate, hate, hate. That's what sells ads. If you read an article that makes you feel superior to another group of people, like "look what these stupid people are doing," in so many words, that's a hate-monger company. There are many. Fear also sells, and it's a cousin to hate. You can't really have hate without fear. Fear of loss, fear of some unknown boogie man (George Soros, Koch brothers, etc.) It's all to sell advertisements and keep you WATCHING and READING! Pretty sad that is all it takes: money.
- andrepd 5y ago
  It's amazing the huge amount of the world's ills that ultimately can be traced back to advertising. Online social networks have only turbocharged it.
  - newbamboo 5y ago
    Engagement == enragement A very simple cause and effect that nobody will do anything about because dollarinos.
- sangnoir 5y ago
  > That's what sells ads. The failure modes of the combination of democracy and America-style capitalism are fascinating, as is the reluctance of those with authority to act, to do so. The American media is both too docile to ask difficult questions (so as to maintain access), while simultaneously riling up viewers' emotions with opinion-shows. Independent media in other western countries do a better job at holding authorities to account - even with something as basic as asking follow-up questions at press-conferences, or pushing back at incorrect characterizations.
umanwizard 5y ago
Your metric seems silly given that there are several groups of people actively trying to kill each other for religious, ideological, or ethnic reasons in various parts of the world. People in the US may well hate each other more than people in most peaceful developed countries, sure. But “this planet” is a big place.
- titzer 5y ago
  I mean that Americans hate each other more than they hate anything else on this planet. Clearly there is plenty of other groups hating each other.
  - Clubber 5y ago
    This is by design. The populace is easier to control that way. This has been going on here since Bacon's Rebellion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon%27s_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon%27s_Rebellion
refurb 5y ago
This observation is only true if you assume what you read on the internet and media accurately represents the population as a whole. It doesn’t.
dham 5y ago
In my opinion this is a sign of America becoming a utopia. Most people have so little to worry about we start fighting on stuff that literally doesn't matter.
- Anthony-G 5y ago
  Utopia for the ruling class who have been successful in keeping the population distracted from material issues and social issues such as poverty, lack of access to health-care, education and decent, secure jobs. Instead of bread, it’s shiny disposable gadgets; instead of circuses, it’s the culture wars.

by titzer 5y ago

civilized 5y ago

A lot of people seem fundamentally ridiculous these days. Silly, frivolous, unserious, out of touch with reality. They should know better, and they don't care that they should know better. They're motivated by something else. I don't know if that's a new thing or not, but that's how it has seemed to me during this pandemic. Quite a few people have gone without an easy, safe, miraculously effective vaccine - a marvel of the latest science, freely available at their fingertips - and literally died. As far as I can tell, their deepest motivation to do this was to express their distrust of the establishment and/or stick it to their political opponents. In a "lol nothing matters" world, all that matters to these people is whether they get to stick it to the man. Nothing bad can really happen, so no real thought is needed to stay safe. It's fine to just believe the first entertainingly outrageous quack theory that flatters your sentiments or ideology or tribe. It's as if they were interrupted by a gunman while watching TV, and made no motion to defend themselves, assuming the gun pointed at their heads was part of the show.

TheBlight 5y ago
I don't think you have a complete understanding of the larger opposing point of view that you think you do. What you're regurgitating is a media enhanced narrative. You are upset with a caricature.
- civilized 5y ago
  Nah, I've talked to enough of these types to know the information and reasoning they're relying on. One of my personal quirks is a lifelong fascination with crackpots. And for what it's worth, I have some heterodox opinions on certain COVID-related topics. For example the case against ivermectin has been greatly overstated, although there is still room for reasonable doubt about its efficacy. Not everyone with a streak of independent thought on COVID is a fool, but essentially all the vaccine haters are. Drunk on sentimental nonsense and ideological fantasy, with just enough fact mixed in to make the toxic brew superficially plausible. The 1/6 rioters were much the same.
  - chitowneats 5y ago
    If you can admit the discourse around Ivermectin is confused, then perhaps you can see why some arrive at the wrong conclusion with respect to mRNA vaccines. Is it possible that some are not as equipped as you are to discern the signal within the noise? Is it possible you are incorrect about one or more of your heterodox opinions? The type of sneering you're engaging in is unbelievably counterproductive. Uncivilized, even.
    - civilized 5y ago
      I wouldn't tell my aunt that it's idiotic to blindly believe spike protein sheds from the vaccinated and harms people, or that VAERS has recorded thousands of vaccine-caused deaths, because she read it on FB. But I do think it's idiotic to believe that, and every once in a while I'm going to say so. It's not just some innocent difficulty with finding the signal in the noise. It's sentimental, ideological delusion, and it's rotten to the core. And deep down, I believe many of them do know better, even if they stopped caring years ago. I won't pointlessly anger them by saying so to their faces, but I also won't patronize them by pretending otherwise.
      - chitowneats 5y ago
        Most people I know would say it's idiotic to use "horse paste" as an early prophylactic against covid, despite how much context such a statement obscures. You are making a mistake generalizing the case of your aunt to the rest of society. You come off as quite emotional about it, frankly. Sure, maybe you can psychoanalyze her accurately given your close relation. It's not helping your argument in a public setting like HN.

int_19h 5y ago

As a non-American who lives in US these days, I can assure you that there's nothing unique about the Americans' ability to hate each other. In terms of literally killing people over that, you guys are definitely far behind.

nradov 5y ago
More Americans should visit the Balkans and learn the regional history. It's a beautiful area, and gives some perspective on the universal human capacity for irrational hatred. What I've never understood is how people can get so outraged over even minor political differences. If someone agrees with you 80% then that's an ally, not an enemy.
- int_19h 5y ago
  Pretty much any region has plenty of history that Americans should reflect on. E.g. whenever the American media and/or pundits talk about the "civil war", it's inevitably framed in comparison to the US Civil War. Except that was a very atypical "civil war", as those things go - fought by well-established governments using mostly conventional armies. And while it's still the most devastating war ever fought on US soil, its casualty numbers are minuscule by the world standards of what civil strife looks like. To find out more about what an actual civil war looks like, one might explore history of civil wars in e.g. Russia, China, or even Finland.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    Spain, Yugoslavia, Lebanon.
- Clubber 5y ago
  Here's a list of characteristics of a cult. You'll probably recognize some of these in our modern (since about 1992) political discourse. http://cultresearch.org/help/characteristics-associated-with-cults/ http://cultresearch.org/help/characteristics-associated-with... - Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. - The group has a polarized, us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. - The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group. - The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and control members. Often this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion. - Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

Clubber 5y ago

>because hate, hate, hate, hate. That's what sells ads. If you read an article that makes you feel superior to another group of people, like "look what these stupid people are doing," in so many words, that's a hate-monger company. There are many. Fear also sells, and it's a cousin to hate. You can't really have hate without fear. Fear of loss, fear of some unknown boogie man (George Soros, Koch brothers, etc.) It's all to sell advertisements and keep you WATCHING and READING! Pretty sad that is all it takes: money.

andrepd 5y ago
It's amazing the huge amount of the world's ills that ultimately can be traced back to advertising. Online social networks have only turbocharged it.
- newbamboo 5y ago
  Engagement == enragement A very simple cause and effect that nobody will do anything about because dollarinos.
sangnoir 5y ago
> That's what sells ads. The failure modes of the combination of democracy and America-style capitalism are fascinating, as is the reluctance of those with authority to act, to do so. The American media is both too docile to ask difficult questions (so as to maintain access), while simultaneously riling up viewers' emotions with opinion-shows. Independent media in other western countries do a better job at holding authorities to account - even with something as basic as asking follow-up questions at press-conferences, or pushing back at incorrect characterizations.

umanwizard 5y ago

Your metric seems silly given that there are several groups of people actively trying to kill each other for religious, ideological, or ethnic reasons in various parts of the world. People in the US may well hate each other more than people in most peaceful developed countries, sure. But “this planet” is a big place.

titzer 5y ago
I mean that Americans hate each other more than they hate anything else on this planet. Clearly there is plenty of other groups hating each other.
- Clubber 5y ago
  This is by design. The populace is easier to control that way. This has been going on here since Bacon's Rebellion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon%27s_Rebellion https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacon%27s_Rebellion

refurb 5y ago

This observation is only true if you assume what you read on the internet and media accurately represents the population as a whole. It doesn’t.

dham 5y ago

In my opinion this is a sign of America becoming a utopia. Most people have so little to worry about we start fighting on stuff that literally doesn't matter.

Anthony-G 5y ago
Utopia for the ruling class who have been successful in keeping the population distracted from material issues and social issues such as poverty, lack of access to health-care, education and decent, secure jobs. Instead of bread, it’s shiny disposable gadgets; instead of circuses, it’s the culture wars.