4 ms·

Ursula Haverbeck is currently in a German prison at the age of 92 for the "crime" of verbal holocaust denial aka for speech. There is no free speech anywhere i

by noxer 5y ago

Ursula Haverbeck is currently in a German prison at the age of 92 for the "crime" of verbal holocaust denial aka for speech. There is no free speech anywhere in Europe. And there is no doubt she would be free in every state in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Haverbeck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Haverbeck

h_anna_h 5y ago
> There is no free speech anywhere in Europe This is a bold and unsubstantiated claim. > And there is no doubt she would be free in every state in the US. For this specific action? Sure. For other actions that are protected under the 1st amendment? Depends on whether there is a law against it and if she pissed off someone "important" or enough people. There are various such cases. edit: will respond to the replies after the rate-limit expires
- ltbarcly3 5y ago
  There aren't any cases I know of for anyone being jailed for expressing their beliefs. Can you name several?
  - h_anna_h 5y ago
    Specifically for expressing beliefs? No. Only the one that I mentioned as a reply to the sibling post to yours.
- noxer 5y ago
  >This is a bold and unsubstantiated claim. I'm fine with that but its non the less the hard truth there is nothing like the 1st amendment in any other place. >For other actions that are protected under the 1st amendment? Depends.... To be in the right doesn't mean you win the court case that's true but in the EU you dont have the 1st amendment, you dont have the right to free speech. If the court system does its job correct you go to jail not when the system fails because of "important" people and corruption. You go to jail because what you said is actually a crime to say. Needless to say that the list of "crime speech" only gets longer and longer over time.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > in the EU you dont have the 1st amendment, you dont have the right to free speech. Most EU countries have some rather close analogue of the US First Amendment in their law or constitution. Sure, pretty much all of them have various exceptions, so there's no absolute free speech -- but then the US has such exceptions too, and thus also lacks absolute free speech. On the whole, IMO your comment is much more wrong than right.
    - noxer 5y ago
      Name a single place and the law that is remotely comparable to the 1st amendment. It doesn't exist. There are some analogue yes but they all have exceptions like the one mentioned above where arbitrary the holocaust is excluded or certain other topic are excluded. Or the free speech only applies if your speech is considered satire or has some arctic value. etc. etc. >but then the US has such exceptions too, and thus also lacks absolute free speech. No, it does not the fist amendment is very clear and short enough to not have any loopholes in there. People just intentionally misinterpret it and then come around and say you can scream "bomb" in an airplane in US airspace therefore you dont have free speech in the US. This just shows the lack of understand what free speech means. Its not about having the right to make audible noises of any kind at any time and place. Similarly if you order a person to kill someone and do so with your voice trough the act of speaking, you are committing a crime.
      - CRConrad 5y ago
        Seems I don't need to contradict you: > No, it does not the fist amendment is very clear and short enough to not have any loopholes in there. > ... > Similarly if you order a person to kill someone and do so with your voice trough the act of speaking, you are committing a crime. You've already done it for me.
        noxer 5y ago
        >This just shows the lack of understand what free speech means.

by noxer 5y ago

h_anna_h 5y ago

> There is no free speech anywhere in Europe This is a bold and unsubstantiated claim. > And there is no doubt she would be free in every state in the US. For this specific action? Sure. For other actions that are protected under the 1st amendment? Depends on whether there is a law against it and if she pissed off someone "important" or enough people. There are various such cases. edit: will respond to the replies after the rate-limit expires

ltbarcly3 5y ago
There aren't any cases I know of for anyone being jailed for expressing their beliefs. Can you name several?
- h_anna_h 5y ago
  Specifically for expressing beliefs? No. Only the one that I mentioned as a reply to the sibling post to yours.
noxer 5y ago
>This is a bold and unsubstantiated claim. I'm fine with that but its non the less the hard truth there is nothing like the 1st amendment in any other place. >For other actions that are protected under the 1st amendment? Depends.... To be in the right doesn't mean you win the court case that's true but in the EU you dont have the 1st amendment, you dont have the right to free speech. If the court system does its job correct you go to jail not when the system fails because of "important" people and corruption. You go to jail because what you said is actually a crime to say. Needless to say that the list of "crime speech" only gets longer and longer over time.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > in the EU you dont have the 1st amendment, you dont have the right to free speech. Most EU countries have some rather close analogue of the US First Amendment in their law or constitution. Sure, pretty much all of them have various exceptions, so there's no absolute free speech -- but then the US has such exceptions too, and thus also lacks absolute free speech. On the whole, IMO your comment is much more wrong than right.
  - noxer 5y ago
    Name a single place and the law that is remotely comparable to the 1st amendment. It doesn't exist. There are some analogue yes but they all have exceptions like the one mentioned above where arbitrary the holocaust is excluded or certain other topic are excluded. Or the free speech only applies if your speech is considered satire or has some arctic value. etc. etc. >but then the US has such exceptions too, and thus also lacks absolute free speech. No, it does not the fist amendment is very clear and short enough to not have any loopholes in there. People just intentionally misinterpret it and then come around and say you can scream "bomb" in an airplane in US airspace therefore you dont have free speech in the US. This just shows the lack of understand what free speech means. Its not about having the right to make audible noises of any kind at any time and place. Similarly if you order a person to kill someone and do so with your voice trough the act of speaking, you are committing a crime.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      Seems I don't need to contradict you: > No, it does not the fist amendment is very clear and short enough to not have any loopholes in there. > ... > Similarly if you order a person to kill someone and do so with your voice trough the act of speaking, you are committing a crime. You've already done it for me.
      - noxer 5y ago
        >This just shows the lack of understand what free speech means.