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ECHR contains the freedom of speech as a human right and so do most EU countries in their own constitutions. "Countless people have been successfully prosecuted
by h_anna_h 5y ago
ECHR contains the freedom of speech as a human right and so do most EU countries in their own constitutions. "Countless people have been successfully prosecuted for what would be covered under the 1st amendment" (and the ECHR) in the US too. The constitution only has value as long as it's enforced.
- bitwize 5y agoIf you express Nazi views in Germany, you will be arrested. In the USA the First Amendment has been ruled to apply to even the most odious kinds of speech, including neo-Nazis and the KKK. That said it's also true that Germany is, in practice, a freer country than the USA -- and a lot of that may have to domwith the fact that they banned Nazism and public expression of Nazism over 70 years ago. The concept of "unalienable rights" so enshrined in American political philosophy is a myth. COVID should have taught us that all freedom is contingent. A corollary of that is that in order for a society to be, in practice, free, individual rights must be balanced against public health and public safety. The radical American belief in inviolable individual rights led us down the present course of toxic individualism, which got us Trump and the current antivax movement.
- h_anna_h 5y ago> which got us Trump and the current antivax movement I think that you are stretching it a bit here. Claiming that individualism is responsible for that seems unsubstantiated.
- notriddle 5y agoIt’s a stretch to blame “absolute rights” for Trump’s election. That can be placed pretty solidly on xenophobia. The anti-maskers? The only reason those guys think they have a case is exactly because they think bodily autonomy has no limits.
- robertlagrant 5y ago> That can be placed pretty solidly on xenophobia. It can be, but it probably shouldn't be.
- CRConrad 5y ago> ...they think bodily autonomy has no limits. ...they think THEIR bodily autonomy has no limits -- not even where sane people would see that it has to be limited to not encroach on OTHER PEOPLE'S bodily autonomy. There, FTFY.
- h_anna_h 5y agoThis also seems to be bi-partisan sadly.
- CRConrad 5y agoI'm not so sure about that. Stands to reason, AFAICS, that "MY freedoms (and screw yours)!" ideologically resonates more on the right than the left: The whole left-right dichotomy is one of ~ "my freedoms above all" vs "freedoms for all, balanced with responsibility for all".
- h_anna_h 5y agoI think that this is extremely simplistic. For example it does not account for individualist anarchism or the collectivist "for our country/nation/race" pushed by various fascist governments.
- CRConrad 5y agoI can't see how "doesn't cover absolutely all corner cases" equals "extremely simplistic". I'm fairly sure that in broad terms, "left / right" covers the political spectrum the absolute majority of people inhabit. Your objection feels like futile quibbling to me.
- myrandomcomment 5y agoThe problem with the 1st Amendment is that it protects all speech (in general, and if you quote yelling "fire" in a crowded theater you have not read the case law) no matter how stupid that speech is. The issue is that anything else could be a slippery slope to authoritarianism. Drawing that line is hard. Education is the key here however some people seems to be to stupid to be educated.
- noxer 5y agoMakes no sense, Trump is pro vaccine and has been from the beginning.
- iammisc 5y agoIt has been incredibly interesting how the antivax movement has suddenly become a right wing thing after years of festering on the left (including not so long ago with our own VP). I mean... I used to live in Marin county, one of the bluest in the country and one of the least vaccinated. Then COVID comes around and suddenly everyone's pro-COVID-vax, but anti every other vax. Robert Kennedy JR was also instrumental in the 'normal' anti-vax movement, but now it's suddenly a partisan and 'conservative' thing. (Actually, I don't think it's 'conservative' at all. Living in Portland now, I know a lot of old hippie liberals that are anti-covid-vax, and I know few conservatives here, but it's certainly more mixed in that crowd than the hippies).
- CRConrad 5y agoDoesn't all this just go to show that anti-vaxxery[§] is not really a partisan political issue in the first place? Plain old lunacy in itself is politically neutral. The distribution, some shades at some times being more popular on one side of the political spectrum only to sometimes migrate to the other or spread all over it... That seems to be influenced by fashion, by world events like COVID-19, etc, etc -- but basically, mainly, more or less random. ___ [§]: Like, say, spiritualism, crystal healing, homeopathy, flat-eartherism, past lives, shoving rocks up your vajazzle...
- iammisc 5y agoI don't believe anti-vaxxing is a political issue, yes. WHile conservatives are maligned for being anti-vax, in reality, groups like Hispanics and Blacks (not historically conservative or republican in huge amounts) have the highest rates of unvaxxedness.
- noxer 5y agoIts not right or left or conservative its anti-authoritarian it makes perfect sense that "hippies" are now considered anti-vaxer. They want to decide what "drug" they inject and no gov should decide what isn't allowed and also no gov should decide whats mandated to inject. If its voluntary they likely dont care at all. The whole term "antivaxxer" is biased anyway. Most people now pushed in that group are not against vaccines they are against mandating, pushing, incentivizing, shaming etc. people into getting it especially if the gov is behind it.
- sgjohnson 5y ago> That said it's also true that Germany is, in practice, a freer country than the USA [citation needed] Freer by what standard? I’m a European living in Europe, but if I could move to the United States, I’d do it overnight.
- bitwize 5y agoDon't. In addition to the fact that our police are intrusive, our criminal legal system is optimized for tallying high numbers of convictions rather than justice, everything is dependent on your credit score, you get effectively no vacation and very little in the way of labor protection compared to back home, and you're fucked if you get sick or injured without adequate employer health care -- according to various European Hackernews who came here, our food is terrible. As for how Germany is freer than the USA... it consistently scores higher on various press freedom indices and on Cato's Human Freedom Index. Social mobility and legal protection of privacy are both higher in Germany.
- arminiusreturns 5y agoI love how obvious the narrative on this angle now is, and how even on a very normie place like hn you are seen right through. Blaming individualism is a favorite past time of oligarchs and totalitarians.
- dkdk8283 5y agoTrump was an asshole and awful public speaker but his policies were good for the country. The current administration is further diving the US and pushing the limits of what’s acceptable. I fear this is only the beginning of much worse policies to come.
- noxer 5y agoUrsula Haverbeck is currently in a German prison at the age of 92 for the "crime" of verbal holocaust denial aka for speech. There is no free speech anywhere in Europe. And there is no doubt she would be free in every state in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Haverbeck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Haverbeck
- h_anna_h 5y ago> There is no free speech anywhere in Europe This is a bold and unsubstantiated claim. > And there is no doubt she would be free in every state in the US. For this specific action? Sure. For other actions that are protected under the 1st amendment? Depends on whether there is a law against it and if she pissed off someone "important" or enough people. There are various such cases. edit: will respond to the replies after the rate-limit expires
- ltbarcly3 5y agoThere aren't any cases I know of for anyone being jailed for expressing their beliefs. Can you name several?
- h_anna_h 5y agoSpecifically for expressing beliefs? No. Only the one that I mentioned as a reply to the sibling post to yours.
- noxer 5y ago>This is a bold and unsubstantiated claim. I'm fine with that but its non the less the hard truth there is nothing like the 1st amendment in any other place. >For other actions that are protected under the 1st amendment? Depends.... To be in the right doesn't mean you win the court case that's true but in the EU you dont have the 1st amendment, you dont have the right to free speech. If the court system does its job correct you go to jail not when the system fails because of "important" people and corruption. You go to jail because what you said is actually a crime to say. Needless to say that the list of "crime speech" only gets longer and longer over time.
- int_19h 5y agoLet's talk about Germany, to give one example. In that country, the top court can outright declare political parties illegal, if it believes that they constitute a threat to the democratic order. This was used against the Nazis, of course - but also against the Communist party. So, ironically, under the current interpretation of 1A, communists have more freedom of speech and association in US than they do in Germany.
- CRConrad 5y ago> Let's talk about Germany, to give one example. In that country, the top court can outright declare political parties illegal, if it believes that they constitute a threat to the democratic order. So what? Which country can't declare organisations illegal, if it determines them to be terrorist organisations? I'm pretty sure the USA can. So what does it matter if a terrorist organisation calls itself a "party"? (Didn't the Symbionese Liberation Army try exactly that?)
- quotemstr 5y agoIn the US, an idea can't be a "terrorist organization". In Germany, it can be. I much prefer the US model of free speech. Free speech only for ideas that the government doesn't consider dangerous isn't free speech at all.
- h_anna_h 5y ago> In the US, an idea can't be a "terrorist organization". In Germany, it can be This is false.