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You do realize the EU is further down the path of enabling censorship than the US?
by zepto 5y ago
You do realize the EU is further down the path of enabling censorship than the US?
- fsflover 5y agoWhat are you talking about?
- sgjohnson 5y agoThere is no near-absolute right to free speech in the EU. Countless people have been successfilly prosecuted for what would be covered under the 1st amendment in the EU.
- h_anna_h 5y agoECHR contains the freedom of speech as a human right and so do most EU countries in their own constitutions. "Countless people have been successfully prosecuted for what would be covered under the 1st amendment" (and the ECHR) in the US too. The constitution only has value as long as it's enforced.
- bitwize 5y agoIf you express Nazi views in Germany, you will be arrested. In the USA the First Amendment has been ruled to apply to even the most odious kinds of speech, including neo-Nazis and the KKK. That said it's also true that Germany is, in practice, a freer country than the USA -- and a lot of that may have to domwith the fact that they banned Nazism and public expression of Nazism over 70 years ago. The concept of "unalienable rights" so enshrined in American political philosophy is a myth. COVID should have taught us that all freedom is contingent. A corollary of that is that in order for a society to be, in practice, free, individual rights must be balanced against public health and public safety. The radical American belief in inviolable individual rights led us down the present course of toxic individualism, which got us Trump and the current antivax movement.
- h_anna_h 5y ago> which got us Trump and the current antivax movement I think that you are stretching it a bit here. Claiming that individualism is responsible for that seems unsubstantiated.
- notriddle 5y agoIt’s a stretch to blame “absolute rights” for Trump’s election. That can be placed pretty solidly on xenophobia. The anti-maskers? The only reason those guys think they have a case is exactly because they think bodily autonomy has no limits.
- robertlagrant 5y ago> That can be placed pretty solidly on xenophobia. It can be, but it probably shouldn't be.
- CRConrad 5y ago> ...they think bodily autonomy has no limits. ...they think THEIR bodily autonomy has no limits -- not even where sane people would see that it has to be limited to not encroach on OTHER PEOPLE'S bodily autonomy. There, FTFY.
- h_anna_h 5y agoThis also seems to be bi-partisan sadly.
- CRConrad 5y agoI'm not so sure about that. Stands to reason, AFAICS, that "MY freedoms (and screw yours)!" ideologically resonates more on the right than the left: The whole left-right dichotomy is one of ~ "my freedoms above all" vs "freedoms for all, balanced with responsibility for all".
- 5y ago
- noxer 5y agoUrsula Haverbeck is currently in a German prison at the age of 92 for the "crime" of verbal holocaust denial aka for speech. There is no free speech anywhere in Europe. And there is no doubt she would be free in every state in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Haverbeck https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_Haverbeck
- h_anna_h 5y ago> There is no free speech anywhere in Europe This is a bold and unsubstantiated claim. > And there is no doubt she would be free in every state in the US. For this specific action? Sure. For other actions that are protected under the 1st amendment? Depends on whether there is a law against it and if she pissed off someone "important" or enough people. There are various such cases. edit: will respond to the replies after the rate-limit expires
- ltbarcly3 5y agoThere aren't any cases I know of for anyone being jailed for expressing their beliefs. Can you name several?
- h_anna_h 5y agoSpecifically for expressing beliefs? No. Only the one that I mentioned as a reply to the sibling post to yours.
- noxer 5y ago>This is a bold and unsubstantiated claim. I'm fine with that but its non the less the hard truth there is nothing like the 1st amendment in any other place. >For other actions that are protected under the 1st amendment? Depends.... To be in the right doesn't mean you win the court case that's true but in the EU you dont have the 1st amendment, you dont have the right to free speech. If the court system does its job correct you go to jail not when the system fails because of "important" people and corruption. You go to jail because what you said is actually a crime to say. Needless to say that the list of "crime speech" only gets longer and longer over time.
- int_19h 5y agoLet's talk about Germany, to give one example. In that country, the top court can outright declare political parties illegal, if it believes that they constitute a threat to the democratic order. This was used against the Nazis, of course - but also against the Communist party. So, ironically, under the current interpretation of 1A, communists have more freedom of speech and association in US than they do in Germany.
- CRConrad 5y ago> Let's talk about Germany, to give one example. In that country, the top court can outright declare political parties illegal, if it believes that they constitute a threat to the democratic order. So what? Which country can't declare organisations illegal, if it determines them to be terrorist organisations? I'm pretty sure the USA can. So what does it matter if a terrorist organisation calls itself a "party"? (Didn't the Symbionese Liberation Army try exactly that?)
- quotemstr 5y agoIn the US, an idea can't be a "terrorist organization". In Germany, it can be. I much prefer the US model of free speech. Free speech only for ideas that the government doesn't consider dangerous isn't free speech at all.
- h_anna_h 5y ago> In the US, an idea can't be a "terrorist organization". In Germany, it can be This is false.