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By that logic the poor in the US have the most power? As they pay generally close to zero direct taxes (indirectly they pay the corporate taxes and gas taxes a

By that logic the poor in the US have the most power? As they pay generally close to zero direct taxes (indirectly they pay the corporate taxes and gas taxes and such as hidden costs in their daily consumption)...

techbio 5y ago
Perhaps? If not individually then collectively, whether as motivation toward a cheaper food supply, or as a caution to those who are not poor but only a couple of defiant decisions from losing what they've gained. It seems counterintuitive, but GPs rule of thumb may hold even there. I think the problem is in comparing a few wealthy individuals or cabals (in control) to an enormous number of real people (each without much control at all). Poverty is negative power under the same hierarchy responsible for controlling positive power.
jjoonathan 5y ago
We are looking for policy concessions. Not taking money from someone who doesn't have money to take isn't much of a policy concession. Also, as you point out, there are tons of indirect taxes on the poor, but other aspects of the policy status quo really drive it home -- poor social safety net, bad public transport, "public" schools funded with property tax, policies that make rent go up, shipping the jobs overseas, etc, etc. We even allow homeless spikes! My general point isn't so much that taxes are an ideal metric, it's that we should focus on measuring the status quo rather than measuring who won yesterday's wedge issue battles.
- jejones3141 5y ago
  How is not giving something to someone equivalent to taking something from someone?
  - techbio 5y ago
    They are not equivalent at all, they are almost exactly opposite. Each would reverse the other.
  - jjoonathan 5y ago
    How is this distinction relevant to whether or not tallying wedge issues is sound methodology for identifying elites?
pydry 5y ago
>By that logic the poor in the US have the most power? No: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/06/opinion/income-tax-rate-wealthy.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/06/opinion/incom... >indirectly they pay the corporate taxes Corporation tax incidence falls squarely on shareholders. Profit taxes affect those who are the beneficiary of profits, and the vast majority of the stock market is owned by the very, very wealthy. It's not unusual for people to be spoon-fed the exact opposite impression, of course.
- HPsquared 5y ago
  Costs of doing business get baked-in to the sale price.
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    Corporation tax isn’t a cost of doing business, it’s calculated after costs have been removed from revenue.
    - techbio 5y ago
      That seems to be a distinction without a difference, as they all are removed from net profits.
      - imtringued 5y ago
        No, there is a huge difference. Your company passes on VAT, sales tax, the income tax needed to hire workers and other taxes. The profits of the company are only relevant to investors, not consumers.
    - jrexilius 5y ago
      Because businesses forget every year what taxes are and don't factor them into the needed margins for a product?
      - 5y ago
neltnerb 5y ago
Sales tax is highly regressive (in the technical sense) and makes up a larger fraction of the income of a poor person.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
The poor would be paying more taxes if their income had tracked productivity gains and GDP growth. Instead it substantially went to the 0.5%.

techbio 5y ago

Perhaps? If not individually then collectively, whether as motivation toward a cheaper food supply, or as a caution to those who are not poor but only a couple of defiant decisions from losing what they've gained. It seems counterintuitive, but GPs rule of thumb may hold even there. I think the problem is in comparing a few wealthy individuals or cabals (in control) to an enormous number of real people (each without much control at all). Poverty is negative power under the same hierarchy responsible for controlling positive power.

jjoonathan 5y ago

We are looking for policy concessions. Not taking money from someone who doesn't have money to take isn't much of a policy concession. Also, as you point out, there are tons of indirect taxes on the poor, but other aspects of the policy status quo really drive it home -- poor social safety net, bad public transport, "public" schools funded with property tax, policies that make rent go up, shipping the jobs overseas, etc, etc. We even allow homeless spikes! My general point isn't so much that taxes are an ideal metric, it's that we should focus on measuring the status quo rather than measuring who won yesterday's wedge issue battles.

jejones3141 5y ago
How is not giving something to someone equivalent to taking something from someone?
- techbio 5y ago
  They are not equivalent at all, they are almost exactly opposite. Each would reverse the other.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  How is this distinction relevant to whether or not tallying wedge issues is sound methodology for identifying elites?

pydry 5y ago

>By that logic the poor in the US have the most power? No: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/06/opinion/income-tax-rate-wealthy.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/10/06/opinion/incom... >indirectly they pay the corporate taxes Corporation tax incidence falls squarely on shareholders. Profit taxes affect those who are the beneficiary of profits, and the vast majority of the stock market is owned by the very, very wealthy. It's not unusual for people to be spoon-fed the exact opposite impression, of course.

HPsquared 5y ago
Costs of doing business get baked-in to the sale price.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  Corporation tax isn’t a cost of doing business, it’s calculated after costs have been removed from revenue.
  - techbio 5y ago
    That seems to be a distinction without a difference, as they all are removed from net profits.
    - imtringued 5y ago
      No, there is a huge difference. Your company passes on VAT, sales tax, the income tax needed to hire workers and other taxes. The profits of the company are only relevant to investors, not consumers.
  - jrexilius 5y ago
    Because businesses forget every year what taxes are and don't factor them into the needed margins for a product?
    - 5y ago

neltnerb 5y ago

Sales tax is highly regressive (in the technical sense) and makes up a larger fraction of the income of a poor person.

mensetmanusman 5y ago

The poor would be paying more taxes if their income had tracked productivity gains and GDP growth. Instead it substantially went to the 0.5%.