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> What the conspiracy theorists miss is there doesn't need to be a unified agenda behind this process There doesn't need to be a mind behind a process. Many t

by retrac 5y ago

> What the conspiracy theorists miss is there doesn't need to be a unified agenda behind this process There doesn't need to be a mind behind a process. Many things, including some of society's worst troubles and the confluences of malfeasance in politics, are simply emergent properties of large social systems. No intent necessary.

techbio 5y ago
This is an incredibly important point that I agree with. I would take this further to separate "legal person" from "mind", as I understand the mind is itself an emergent and self-supporting adaptive process[1], very common to find among any persistent complex systems. Politicians don't make politics, it's the other way around. [1] I use this phrase to replace "intent", because outside of requiring the "intender" to be person who can be held to account with punishment or reward, the reward mechanism is the same environmental pressure.
- h2odragon 5y ago
  There's an interesting other side there too: corporations are our "slow AI", if we take a more realistic approach to their legal personhood perhaps we can all benefit.
- unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
  Reminds of research of termite mounds. A researcher mused that maybe mounds are best understood as a composite animal that in some sense, itself has a soul. One particular scientist "imagined that eventually the mound would evolve into a being that could move across the veldt – very slowly in its dirt skin – a monster hybrid of soil and soul."[1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/sep/18/a-giant-crawling-brain-the-jaw-dropping-world-of-termites https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/sep/18/a-giant-crawlin...
  - teddyh 5y ago
    This is a very old idea; see, for instance, the “Aunt Hillary” character from Gödel, Escher, Bach (written in 1979).
chongli 5y ago
My personal theory (picked up by reading a variety of sources) is that people who believe in conspiracy theories have some natural propensity to see agency behind every random event. It may be some form of pareidolia [1] or Apophenia [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia
- dnautics 5y ago
  honestly, it's not the worst pattern match; because a lot of conspiracy theories actually were conspiracy theories. E.G. CIA testing LSD, Tuskeegee siphilis study, Polio Vaccines used as a spy operation to catch Osama Bin Laden...
  - chongli 5y ago
    Sometimes the rustle in the bushes actually is a tiger. But I think some people live in a world haunted by tigers. The internet has given these individuals an unprecedented ability to connect with others who see things in a similar way. People suffering from something like this may feel totally isolated from regular people around them and so meeting fellow sufferers online must be a great relief and comfort. Unfortunately, from their perspective, the affliction is external rather than internal.
    - GauntletWizard 5y ago
      To many people, the malicious, or at least "counter to their interests but with forced participation" action they have to deal with every day might as well be a world haunted by tigers. I have Adtech clients, and the lengths that are gone to to track conversions are astounding - Sometimes when I'm explaining the pipelines to myself I'm convinced I'm talking about a crazy conspiracy.
  - pjc50 5y ago
    Quite a lot of conspiracy theories are "exactly wrong"; that is, they resemble something that happened or is happening, but the persons involved are wrong and the motives are wrong. Even weirder, the conspiracists don't cite the true events as support of their theories. "big pharma" => see Purdue "pizzagate" => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Nolan_(politician) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Nolan_(politician) "is an American registered sex offender and former state district court judge, a former leader in the Republican Party and a former chairman of Donald Trump's presidential campaign in Campbell County, Kentucky. On February 9, 2018, he pleaded guilty to 19 counts of child sex trafficking and human trafficking; on February 11, 2018 he was sentenced to serve 20 years in prison" and so on. > Tuskeegee siphilis study And a lot of conspiracy theories are "what if this thing the US did to black people it also did to white people"

by retrac 5y ago

techbio 5y ago

This is an incredibly important point that I agree with. I would take this further to separate "legal person" from "mind", as I understand the mind is itself an emergent and self-supporting adaptive process[1], very common to find among any persistent complex systems. Politicians don't make politics, it's the other way around. [1] I use this phrase to replace "intent", because outside of requiring the "intender" to be person who can be held to account with punishment or reward, the reward mechanism is the same environmental pressure.

h2odragon 5y ago
There's an interesting other side there too: corporations are our "slow AI", if we take a more realistic approach to their legal personhood perhaps we can all benefit.
unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
Reminds of research of termite mounds. A researcher mused that maybe mounds are best understood as a composite animal that in some sense, itself has a soul. One particular scientist "imagined that eventually the mound would evolve into a being that could move across the veldt – very slowly in its dirt skin – a monster hybrid of soil and soul."[1] [1] https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/sep/18/a-giant-crawling-brain-the-jaw-dropping-world-of-termites https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/sep/18/a-giant-crawlin...
- teddyh 5y ago
  This is a very old idea; see, for instance, the “Aunt Hillary” character from Gödel, Escher, Bach (written in 1979).

chongli 5y ago

My personal theory (picked up by reading a variety of sources) is that people who believe in conspiracy theories have some natural propensity to see agency behind every random event. It may be some form of pareidolia [1] or Apophenia [2]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apophenia

dnautics 5y ago
honestly, it's not the worst pattern match; because a lot of conspiracy theories actually were conspiracy theories. E.G. CIA testing LSD, Tuskeegee siphilis study, Polio Vaccines used as a spy operation to catch Osama Bin Laden...
- chongli 5y ago
  Sometimes the rustle in the bushes actually is a tiger. But I think some people live in a world haunted by tigers. The internet has given these individuals an unprecedented ability to connect with others who see things in a similar way. People suffering from something like this may feel totally isolated from regular people around them and so meeting fellow sufferers online must be a great relief and comfort. Unfortunately, from their perspective, the affliction is external rather than internal.
  - GauntletWizard 5y ago
    To many people, the malicious, or at least "counter to their interests but with forced participation" action they have to deal with every day might as well be a world haunted by tigers. I have Adtech clients, and the lengths that are gone to to track conversions are astounding - Sometimes when I'm explaining the pipelines to myself I'm convinced I'm talking about a crazy conspiracy.
- pjc50 5y ago
  Quite a lot of conspiracy theories are "exactly wrong"; that is, they resemble something that happened or is happening, but the persons involved are wrong and the motives are wrong. Even weirder, the conspiracists don't cite the true events as support of their theories. "big pharma" => see Purdue "pizzagate" => https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Nolan_(politician) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Nolan_(politician) "is an American registered sex offender and former state district court judge, a former leader in the Republican Party and a former chairman of Donald Trump's presidential campaign in Campbell County, Kentucky. On February 9, 2018, he pleaded guilty to 19 counts of child sex trafficking and human trafficking; on February 11, 2018 he was sentenced to serve 20 years in prison" and so on. > Tuskeegee siphilis study And a lot of conspiracy theories are "what if this thing the US did to black people it also did to white people"