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Interesting parallel here to the floppy disk icon being used for "save". It's quite possible that icon is ubiquitous enough that, without a push to change it, i

Interesting parallel here to the floppy disk icon being used for "save". It's quite possible that icon is ubiquitous enough that, without a push to change it, it sticks around for 100 years as well.

webwielder2 5y ago
The floppy disk icon never took off in the Apple ecosystem, so every time I see it in Windows world it seems like a bizarre anachronism. Which it is. Emblematic really of Apple’s ethos of plunging forward and Wintel’s backwards compatibility at all costs approach.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
  Not really. Apple taught the world the word "skeuomorphic", making fake paper and leather and metal for their apps. Also, Apple famously used the OP's bomb icon whenever Mac OS plunged forward into a crash.
- Macha 5y ago
  However, floppy disk icons also survive in Linux, android and web apps, at least in those which save is an explicit GUI action, so it's really only Apple thats the outlier here
- blondin 5y ago
  you are making an interesting point that is shadowed by the extra comment. the floppy disk image as "save" icon is rare in most native mac apps. GP's point is quite interesting because there is a generation or two that hasn't seen a real floppy disk beside on those icons. they probably have no clue what it is. i wonder what other icon images are like that.
  - 00N8 5y ago
    the rounded symbols for 'database' icons are based on some ancient storage medium used in early mainframes - magnetic drum memory I think
    - userbinator 5y ago
      I've always thought of those as more like barrels of data (as opposed to oil).
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      Stack of hard disk platters (what's inside a disk drive), I've always thought. Bit more modern than drum (where AIUI the storage surface is the outer circumference, like a phonograph roll); bit less abstract than "a barrel of data". Oracle used to have logos for some products that looked like that (or, come to think of it, like a stack of button-cell batteries): https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fvtcholding.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F12%2Fdatabase-icon-47101.png&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fvtcholding.com%2Foracle-database-services%2F&tbnid=sSVaUG-kV2LSsM&vet=12ahUKEwi86s_X4JDzAhWH_yoKHTatBDQQMygRegUIARDVAQ..i&docid=nkxKLZIuMAZ3SM&w=256&h=256&q=oracle%20cylinders&ved=2ahUKEwi86s_X4JDzAhWH_yoKHTatBDQQMygRegUIARDVAQ https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fvtcholdin... And I've always wondered if they based their HQ building on those logos, or if it was the other way around: https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Flive.staticflickr.com%2F3205%2F3474603423_dfecf4a4f2_z.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fjym%2F3474603423%2F&tbnid=HnLjA81HXmZvUM&vet=12ahUKEwi86s_X4JDzAhWH_yoKHTatBDQQMygCegUIARCzAQ..i&docid=ZDRqBMvED6bLUM&w=640&h=398&itg=1&q=oracle%20cylinders&ved=2ahUKEwi86s_X4JDzAhWH_yoKHTatBDQQMygCegUIARCzAQ https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Flive.stat...
- kitsunesoba 5y ago
  It's been a long time since I used classic Mac OS seriously, but I don't think Mac apps really even used toolbars for actions like save, undo, paste, etc. Usually toolbars were for selecting tools (e.g. pencil, eraser, etc in paint) or tuning settings (e.g. font and color), with actions stowed away in menus and lacking iconographic representation. Thinking about it further, this is true of OS X too. Even though it made toolbars more ubiquitous, it was still unusual for "standard" actions to be placed there. I would think that a longtime Mac user probably associates "save" with the key shortcut ⌘-S more strongly than any kind of icon.
- kragen 5y ago
  The floppy disk icon was introduced by the Macintosh in 01984.
  - webwielder2 5y ago
    And it only ever meant "floppy disk."
oneeyedpigeon 5y ago
> it sticks around for 100 years as well Only if the concept of manual save sticks around that long.
- im3w1l 5y ago
  Even in systems that continously save your progress there is a close analogue to manual save: Named revisions. Bookmarks of points in history that are better than the surrounding ones - points where some milestone has been reached, and some amount of proofreading done. Where there are no duplicated paragraphs or major rough edges like that.
  - codetrotter 5y ago
    But the floppy icon would not be a good fit for depicting named revisions
    - gumby 5y ago
      Sure, it’s copying your revision to a disk, writing the date on the label, and sticking it in a box.
    - jcims 5y ago
      The only difference between what is being described here and what we have been working with until today is how far undo/redo go. For the most part the intent is to memorialize a snapshot of the work, a task the floppy icon has been fulfilling all along.
    - dylan604 5y ago
      If the current document is Untitled, New File, No Name, etc and does not actually point to a file, then the ubiquitous Floppy icon should act as Save As. Once the file does exist, a simple Shift-click of the same floppy icon should also act as Save As. Same thing as Cmd-S/Cmd-Shfit-S. However, I'm unfamiliar with this modifier click save as from any app.
- _Microft 5y ago
gumby 5y ago
Which itself embodies an archaic remnant: the “floppy” disk icon is most often the 3.5 inch disk (the one with a metal shutter) which was in fact rigid. Actual “floppy” disks (8” and later 5.25”) were flexible and needed a slightly more rigid sleeve to make them easy to handle. The 3.5” ones needed the sleeve to protect the medium (the actual disk).
- sophacles 5y ago
  The disk itself was floppy, and basically the same as the larger disks. The case around them was rigid.
- United857 5y ago
  The 3.5 inch disks took off around the same time as Windows did (the Mac had always used them) so probably no coincidence that's that the save icon represents.
- moron4hire 5y ago
  The actual disk portion on the inside was the floppy part, so it's still a "floppy disk". The rigid part on the outside was called the cassette.
  - alisonkisk 5y ago
    and "cassette tapes" (for computer or radio/stereo/receiver) are the same material, but the magnetic media is in a roll of tape instead of a spinning disk shape.
    - moron4hire 5y ago
      Man, I seriously miss cassettes and cartridges, especially for video games. I recently bought a Nintendo 2DS for my young kids--having missed out on it during its original run myself, and observing that the children grow rather extreme behavioural issues if we let them play on iPads--and even those tiny little cartridges just have something to them. It makes the games feel more real to me, versus downloaded apps just taking up an icon on a screen.
smegcicle 5y ago
there does seem to be some kind of push against it, as if it's either triggering to anyone who hasn't seen one in real life, or maybe the ui designer is afraid someone will think they're old and out-of-touch? the alternative seems to be pictures of folders and clouds with arrows going in and out of them, when the extremely distinctive floppy disk icon unambiguously means whatever form of 'save' is most intuitive and useful
fencepost 5y ago
Are you referring to the vending machine icon?
wolverine876 5y ago
> Interesting parallel here to the floppy disk icon being used for "save". It's quite possible that icon is ubiquitous enough that, without a push to change it, it sticks around for 100 years as well. What icon would you use? it's not an easy question.
- kragen 5y ago
  Friefox seems to be using an arrow (itself an anachronism in the age of the AK-47, but perhaps the most common ideogram in modern written English) that goes into a tabbed file folder.

Interesting parallel here to the floppy disk icon being used for "save". It's quite possible that icon is ubiquitous enough that, without a push to change it, it sticks around for 100 years as well.

webwielder2 5y ago

The floppy disk icon never took off in the Apple ecosystem, so every time I see it in Windows world it seems like a bizarre anachronism. Which it is. Emblematic really of Apple’s ethos of plunging forward and Wintel’s backwards compatibility at all costs approach.

alisonkisk 5y ago
Not really. Apple taught the world the word "skeuomorphic", making fake paper and leather and metal for their apps. Also, Apple famously used the OP's bomb icon whenever Mac OS plunged forward into a crash.
Macha 5y ago
However, floppy disk icons also survive in Linux, android and web apps, at least in those which save is an explicit GUI action, so it's really only Apple thats the outlier here
blondin 5y ago
you are making an interesting point that is shadowed by the extra comment. the floppy disk image as "save" icon is rare in most native mac apps. GP's point is quite interesting because there is a generation or two that hasn't seen a real floppy disk beside on those icons. they probably have no clue what it is. i wonder what other icon images are like that.
- 00N8 5y ago
  the rounded symbols for 'database' icons are based on some ancient storage medium used in early mainframes - magnetic drum memory I think
  - userbinator 5y ago
    I've always thought of those as more like barrels of data (as opposed to oil).
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Stack of hard disk platters (what's inside a disk drive), I've always thought. Bit more modern than drum (where AIUI the storage surface is the outer circumference, like a phonograph roll); bit less abstract than "a barrel of data". Oracle used to have logos for some products that looked like that (or, come to think of it, like a stack of button-cell batteries): https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fvtcholding.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2018%2F12%2Fdatabase-icon-47101.png&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fvtcholding.com%2Foracle-database-services%2F&tbnid=sSVaUG-kV2LSsM&vet=12ahUKEwi86s_X4JDzAhWH_yoKHTatBDQQMygRegUIARDVAQ..i&docid=nkxKLZIuMAZ3SM&w=256&h=256&q=oracle%20cylinders&ved=2ahUKEwi86s_X4JDzAhWH_yoKHTatBDQQMygRegUIARDVAQ https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fvtcholdin... And I've always wondered if they based their HQ building on those logos, or if it was the other way around: https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Flive.staticflickr.com%2F3205%2F3474603423_dfecf4a4f2_z.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Fjym%2F3474603423%2F&tbnid=HnLjA81HXmZvUM&vet=12ahUKEwi86s_X4JDzAhWH_yoKHTatBDQQMygCegUIARCzAQ..i&docid=ZDRqBMvED6bLUM&w=640&h=398&itg=1&q=oracle%20cylinders&ved=2ahUKEwi86s_X4JDzAhWH_yoKHTatBDQQMygCegUIARCzAQ https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Flive.stat...
kitsunesoba 5y ago
It's been a long time since I used classic Mac OS seriously, but I don't think Mac apps really even used toolbars for actions like save, undo, paste, etc. Usually toolbars were for selecting tools (e.g. pencil, eraser, etc in paint) or tuning settings (e.g. font and color), with actions stowed away in menus and lacking iconographic representation. Thinking about it further, this is true of OS X too. Even though it made toolbars more ubiquitous, it was still unusual for "standard" actions to be placed there. I would think that a longtime Mac user probably associates "save" with the key shortcut ⌘-S more strongly than any kind of icon.
kragen 5y ago
The floppy disk icon was introduced by the Macintosh in 01984.
- webwielder2 5y ago
  And it only ever meant "floppy disk."

oneeyedpigeon 5y ago

> it sticks around for 100 years as well Only if the concept of manual save sticks around that long.

im3w1l 5y ago
Even in systems that continously save your progress there is a close analogue to manual save: Named revisions. Bookmarks of points in history that are better than the surrounding ones - points where some milestone has been reached, and some amount of proofreading done. Where there are no duplicated paragraphs or major rough edges like that.
- codetrotter 5y ago
  But the floppy icon would not be a good fit for depicting named revisions
  - gumby 5y ago
    Sure, it’s copying your revision to a disk, writing the date on the label, and sticking it in a box.
  - jcims 5y ago
    The only difference between what is being described here and what we have been working with until today is how far undo/redo go. For the most part the intent is to memorialize a snapshot of the work, a task the floppy icon has been fulfilling all along.
  - dylan604 5y ago
    If the current document is Untitled, New File, No Name, etc and does not actually point to a file, then the ubiquitous Floppy icon should act as Save As. Once the file does exist, a simple Shift-click of the same floppy icon should also act as Save As. Same thing as Cmd-S/Cmd-Shfit-S. However, I'm unfamiliar with this modifier click save as from any app.
_Microft 5y ago

gumby 5y ago

Which itself embodies an archaic remnant: the “floppy” disk icon is most often the 3.5 inch disk (the one with a metal shutter) which was in fact rigid. Actual “floppy” disks (8” and later 5.25”) were flexible and needed a slightly more rigid sleeve to make them easy to handle. The 3.5” ones needed the sleeve to protect the medium (the actual disk).

sophacles 5y ago
The disk itself was floppy, and basically the same as the larger disks. The case around them was rigid.
United857 5y ago
The 3.5 inch disks took off around the same time as Windows did (the Mac had always used them) so probably no coincidence that's that the save icon represents.
moron4hire 5y ago
The actual disk portion on the inside was the floppy part, so it's still a "floppy disk". The rigid part on the outside was called the cassette.
- alisonkisk 5y ago
  and "cassette tapes" (for computer or radio/stereo/receiver) are the same material, but the magnetic media is in a roll of tape instead of a spinning disk shape.
  - moron4hire 5y ago
    Man, I seriously miss cassettes and cartridges, especially for video games. I recently bought a Nintendo 2DS for my young kids--having missed out on it during its original run myself, and observing that the children grow rather extreme behavioural issues if we let them play on iPads--and even those tiny little cartridges just have something to them. It makes the games feel more real to me, versus downloaded apps just taking up an icon on a screen.

smegcicle 5y ago

there does seem to be some kind of push against it, as if it's either triggering to anyone who hasn't seen one in real life, or maybe the ui designer is afraid someone will think they're old and out-of-touch? the alternative seems to be pictures of folders and clouds with arrows going in and out of them, when the extremely distinctive floppy disk icon unambiguously means whatever form of 'save' is most intuitive and useful

fencepost 5y ago

Are you referring to the vending machine icon?

wolverine876 5y ago

> Interesting parallel here to the floppy disk icon being used for "save". It's quite possible that icon is ubiquitous enough that, without a push to change it, it sticks around for 100 years as well. What icon would you use? it's not an easy question.

kragen 5y ago
Friefox seems to be using an arrow (itself an anachronism in the age of the AK-47, but perhaps the most common ideogram in modern written English) that goes into a tabbed file folder.