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"Var är mormor, Anders?" I tend to agree that we could talk about Sweden more but most likely for a very different reason: they managed to turn the corner desp

"Var är mormor, Anders?" I tend to agree that we could talk about Sweden more but most likely for a very different reason: they managed to turn the corner despite the lax rules and not because of them. The outcome, I think, can be attributed to the fact that Sweden is a developed country with a strong health and well-fare system and economic ability (and socially pre-existing tendency!) for distancing without going bankrupt in the process (think: remote work instead of work that requires physical presence in e.g. a workshop - I doubt that such an outcome would have been possible in a country with widespread day-labour and people living hand-to-mouth). People were eventually able to react correctly all by themselves but it took a while and that costed a lot of lives. That does not mean that they could not have saved a lot of people with a different approach, like Norway or Finland managed to. Those did not really fare much worse economically in the process and that without incurring the huge cost of lives like Sweden did in the beginning. If you translate the swedish snippet at the top of the post, you might be able to guess who I blame for that.

erokar 5y ago
Indeed Tegnell sacrificed the old and the weak in line with the old Scandinan tradition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84ttestupa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84ttestupa
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Your very link suggests that the tradition likely never existed. If it did, you would expect some archeological discovery supporting it. You can't throw old people into a hole for centuries without a cache of bones developing at the bottom. There is, for example, ample physical evidence of Aztec human sacrifice.
  - angelzen 5y ago
    Also, "Ancient Carthaginians really did sacrifice their children", with ample archaeological evidence. https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2014-01-23-ancient-carthaginians-really-did-sacrifice-their-children https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2014-01-23-ancient-carthaginians-r...
- gammalost 5y ago
  Eh I would more say that the opposite is an old tradition Not made with malice in mind instead out of neccesity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide_Act_(Sweden) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide_Act_(Sweden)
Finnucane 5y ago
There’s probably very small intersection between those who favor copying Sweden’s response to the pandemic with those who favor copying Sweden’s overall social/health care system. I mean Florida and Texas went to extreme ‘do nothing at all’ positions, and the results were not good.
- timr 5y ago
  > I mean Florida and Texas went to extreme ‘do nothing at all’ positions, and the results were not good. Texas (23rd overall; 211/100k) and Florida (10th overall; 237/100k) are both mid-pack amongst US states for Covid mortality rate, even before adjusting by age (if you adjust by age, Florida, in particular, looks better, because of the number of elderly people who move there to retire): https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covi... Among those states doing substantially worse: For Florida: New Jersey (306/100k), New York (281/100k), Massachusetts (267/100k) For Texas: all of the above, plus Connecticut (237/100k), Pennsylvania (235/100k), and maybe Illinois (212/100k) All of these are states whose governors imposed stringent restrictions on daily life. Florida and Texas have certainly been intensely covered by the press, but the reality of the situation is not accurately reflected by the intensity of the news coverage. -- EDIT: Others are quick to point out that the distribution of mortality over time is different for these states, which is true. But you also cannot leap to the conclusion that the most recent differences in mortality are due to policy decisions made months ago. Florida saw >60% of its Covid-related deaths prior to March 2021 (the advent of mass vaccination), but it lifted most Covid restrictions starting in October 2020: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/ https://abcnews.go.com/Health/florida-lifts-covid-19-restrictions/story?id=73294496 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/florida-lifts-covid-19-restric... Any claim that New York (for example) did far better during the pre-vaccination period has to contend with the fact that 87% of its mortality happened prior to vaccination, despite substantially greater restrictions on daily life: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/new-york/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/new-york/ One could argue that NY is a special case, since most of its mortality happened in spring 2020. But that isn't true for, say, Illinois, which had the vast majority of its deaths in the winter of 2020, and still saw 85% of its total mortality prior to March 1: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/illinois/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/illinois/ There is no simple narrative here. Seasonality, climate and chance (i.e. who gets hit first) all play a large role in how states do. People are far too quick to attribute success or failure to a single factor.

erokar 5y ago

Indeed Tegnell sacrificed the old and the weak in line with the old Scandinan tradition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84ttestupa https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84ttestupa

inglor_cz 5y ago
Your very link suggests that the tradition likely never existed. If it did, you would expect some archeological discovery supporting it. You can't throw old people into a hole for centuries without a cache of bones developing at the bottom. There is, for example, ample physical evidence of Aztec human sacrifice.
- angelzen 5y ago
  Also, "Ancient Carthaginians really did sacrifice their children", with ample archaeological evidence. https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2014-01-23-ancient-carthaginians-really-did-sacrifice-their-children https://www.ox.ac.uk/news/2014-01-23-ancient-carthaginians-r...
gammalost 5y ago
Eh I would more say that the opposite is an old tradition Not made with malice in mind instead out of neccesity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide_Act_(Sweden) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infanticide_Act_(Sweden)

Finnucane 5y ago

There’s probably very small intersection between those who favor copying Sweden’s response to the pandemic with those who favor copying Sweden’s overall social/health care system. I mean Florida and Texas went to extreme ‘do nothing at all’ positions, and the results were not good.

timr 5y ago
> I mean Florida and Texas went to extreme ‘do nothing at all’ positions, and the results were not good. Texas (23rd overall; 211/100k) and Florida (10th overall; 237/100k) are both mid-pack amongst US states for Covid mortality rate, even before adjusting by age (if you adjust by age, Florida, in particular, looks better, because of the number of elderly people who move there to retire): https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covid19-death-rates-us-by-state/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109011/coronavirus-covi... Among those states doing substantially worse: For Florida: New Jersey (306/100k), New York (281/100k), Massachusetts (267/100k) For Texas: all of the above, plus Connecticut (237/100k), Pennsylvania (235/100k), and maybe Illinois (212/100k) All of these are states whose governors imposed stringent restrictions on daily life. Florida and Texas have certainly been intensely covered by the press, but the reality of the situation is not accurately reflected by the intensity of the news coverage. -- EDIT: Others are quick to point out that the distribution of mortality over time is different for these states, which is true. But you also cannot leap to the conclusion that the most recent differences in mortality are due to policy decisions made months ago. Florida saw >60% of its Covid-related deaths prior to March 2021 (the advent of mass vaccination), but it lifted most Covid restrictions starting in October 2020: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/florida/ https://abcnews.go.com/Health/florida-lifts-covid-19-restrictions/story?id=73294496 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/florida-lifts-covid-19-restric... Any claim that New York (for example) did far better during the pre-vaccination period has to contend with the fact that 87% of its mortality happened prior to vaccination, despite substantially greater restrictions on daily life: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/new-york/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/new-york/ One could argue that NY is a special case, since most of its mortality happened in spring 2020. But that isn't true for, say, Illinois, which had the vast majority of its deaths in the winter of 2020, and still saw 85% of its total mortality prior to March 1: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/illinois/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/usa/illinois/ There is no simple narrative here. Seasonality, climate and chance (i.e. who gets hit first) all play a large role in how states do. People are far too quick to attribute success or failure to a single factor.