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Regarding textbook pricing. I once ran into a person that said no one should be able to educate themselves/be educated for free. Guy was American. One of the
by beebeepka 5y ago
Regarding textbook pricing.
I once ran into a person that said no one should be able to educate themselves/be educated for free.
Guy was American. One of the weirdest things I've heard my entire life. Imagine having people with similar mindset running the show
- anovikov 5y agoHe has a point. Crackdown on the higher education is coming because there is artificial, and needless, high demand for it - resulting in high prices and most people getting it just wasting years of their lives, additionally getting in debt. Much fewer people need to get higher education. It won't be much different if it was free: main thing is people wasting their time + becoming upset and angry at the society, perceiving themselves as the 'intellectual elite' that isn't getting 'valued' enough and unable to get jobs matching their qualifications. Because yeah, those jobs don't exist: society needs builders and plumbers, not masters of English literature and Sociology.
- tester756 5y ago>main thing is people wasting their time + becoming upset and angry at the society, perceiving themselves as the 'intellectual elite' that isn't getting 'valued' enough and unable to get jobs matching their qualifications Wouldn't higher edu degree becoming "common" invalidate it?
- anovikov 5y agoThat's the thing. It has become too common already to give people any actual benefit: it was a way to stand out and it no longer is.
- WalterBright 5y agoI advised a friend to skip the "weeder" classes in college and take the "honors" version. The reason was the profs in the weeders were only there because they had to be there, and the same with the students. In the honors classes, the students were there because they wanted to learn, and the profs were there because they wanted to teach. He tried both, and discovered that while he had to work a lot harder in the honors class, it was a lot more fun being in that environment.
- bserge 5y agoIt's not just about the jobs, there are things to learn in anything you choose and the connections you make can be great. There's always going to be people who complain about it, yeah. A small minority, though.
- mjreacher 5y ago> society needs builders and plumbers, not masters of English literature and Sociology. There's no reason why someone can't be both. Universities weren't originally designed to be job centers, that's what vocational education was for. This is also one of the problems that I see with the current system is that universities are just seen as a way to get a job rather than to be educated. The issue of people feeling shit about wasting their time or whatever also stems from this issue - they came to university to get an easy job afterwards, not to learn, and this belief is misleading.
- barrenko 5y agoYea, it's also that plumbers subsidize it.
- hilbert42 5y ago"...society needs builders and plumbers, not masters of English literature and Sociology." Society needs both but I'm in full agreement that in recent decades that the trades, woodworking, etc. have been terribly denigrated and they need to be restituted to their former position in society. Even with modern equipment that's taken much of the menial work away we still need people with the skills to use those machines properly. Also, we need creative people who are best skilled with working with their hands. We cannot lose sight of the fact that many are most suited working this way and to force them into doing a desk job is both unfair on them and on society generally. By saying this I'm not implying that they're any less intelligent - in fact I know some very smart and intelligent trades people who I'd trust with almost any work with training. I say this as person who has been a professional/desk worker for most of my working life but also as one who also had the privilege to be trained in metalwork and woodwork and for a time working in those trades. I understand that mentality, and there's absolutely nothing wrong or demeaning about it.
- WalterBright 5y agoLast week I decided to fix my rusty toolbox. I ground off the rust and repainted it. It looks terrible now. Evidently, there is something to craftsmanship :-)
- silvestrov 5y ago> resulting in high prices only in the US.
- mmarq 5y ago> Much fewer people need to get higher education. I really don’t see any reasonable scenario where this could be true. > main thing is people wasting their time + becoming upset and angry at the society, perceiving themselves as the 'intellectual elite' that isn't getting 'valued' enough If one believes that having a degree (which is 30% of the population) makes them part of the elite (which is 1% of the population), they should have spent more time in high school studying statistics. People with a degree don’t see themselves as “the elite”.
- mucholove 5y agoThere is absolutely no problem getting a higher degree—say in literature—and also becoming a plumber. You can study history and become a bricklayer. What is definitely wrong and abhorrent is the expectation that: 1) one is worthy of a so called “white collar” job 2) that a college degree requires full-time study and a campus. May I also note that there are such a thing as higher trades—for example, engineering, architecture, medicine and law. You are not studying some abstract concept when you study the above 4. You are preparing yourself to take an exam and be qualified to practice a trade. The rest of the degrees? Open them up. Wish all of us would study minimum history and had awareness of different structures of government. To me, its so sad that Americans can’t place the specialness of their country in context and protect that which makes it unique in this world—jury duty. A plumber, a bricklayer and a cook need to know that as well as everyone else.
- vasco 5y agoYou seem to be under an illusion that most people would attend university for fun if given the chance, whereas coming from a country with free university degrees - isn't the case at all.
- mucholove 5y agoIllusion like that I am not. USA: If you’re rich and not particularly interested in the topics, you to to college to meet people. Some Euro: I’ve met many a person who continues to “study” to keep the numerous benefits. Many people just don’t care. That dosen’t stop me from saying my idealistic, and unlikely idea after a word like “should”.
- vasco 5y agoYeah that's true, I was a bit harsh.
- freeflight 5y agoThe bottleneck in countries with "free university degrees" is not the cost of university, it's the cost financing your live while studying. For young people with no real financial obligations that's somewhat easy to accomplish. For people in the midst of their lifes, working a regular job, taking care of a family, it can be very difficult to juggle all these obligations at once. Because even when university is "free" it still requires you to invest time.
- mdp2021 5y ago> w#st#ng their time Education is to build the person. It is to build a society of more refined members, which means, to reduce the collective damages that come from ignorance. It is both personal elevation and social duty. The cancer of ignorance is fought also so that people are able to do their own job, the cognitive structure of which does not just stand up on its own isolated supports. Only hours ago I had to find myself in front of somebody who could not do his job owing to underdevelopment.
- anovikov 5y agoWhat is the purpose of "society with refined members" when majority of these members need to do thinking-free, menial jobs? It only builds up discontent. Result is that the government needs more violence applied against people to keep them in check, or the society blows up in endless, unfixable conflict where people just ask for the impossible and won't settle on less than that. Especially in a democratic society where applying violence may be impossible or hard to push through (catch-22 of people having to vote for it), it can simply end the country - any country. This is how Soviet Union ended. "Workers and peasants" were 100% OK with Communism. It's the educated masses who were too educated and did jobs that did not justify their qualification, and lived in deep poverty, ended it.
- kergonath 5y ago> What is the purpose of "society with refined members" when majority of these members need to do thinking-free, menial jobs? Enough culture to recognise a demagogue when they see one? Enough basic scientific knowledge to avoid falling into wellness scams and understand how climate change works? In a democracy, a well-educated people is absolutely required. You don’t need to apply all of your knowledge in your daily work; it does not mean acquiring it was a waste of time. > This is how Soviet Union ended. "Workers and peasants" were 100% OK with Communism. It's the educated masses who were too educated and did jobs that did not justify their qualification, and lived in deep poverty, ended it. The problem with the Soviet Union was not too much education. It is also a strange example to pick when arguing about democracies.
- estaseuropano 5y agoI think you need to realise that people don't exist just for others. Why would you want to stop someone from pursuing their passion for literature or philosophy? Why does everybody need to maximize their utility for society? Yes we need plumbers, but why not allow a young person to study literature for three years and then become a plumber? Plenty go this or a similar route. In my view the world you (want to) live in looks bleak and sad.
- hellbannedguy 5y agoYou don't need any school to be a Plumber, or Builder. You don't even a vocational degree to do those either. You start working be it a union, or non-union, and take a test later on if you want a license. (In California)
- hilbert42 5y ago"You don't need any school to be a Plumber, or Builder" Well, I'd certainly not let anyone with no schooling work on my home, especially so if they cannot read or write. How the hell would they read instructions or building regulations?
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y agoWhat do you think of that in the context of the so called [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hacker_ethic , then? Which enables aimlessly 'toying' around with (already existing) things, discovering new (sometimes unforeseen) applications. In opposotion to [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_work_ethic where everything has to be 'goal oriented' from the start, guided by expected [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_investment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_investment and [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_market https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_market While I (sometimes) can see the value of 2, 3 and 4 a world without 1 is very boring and drab.
- hilbert42 5y agoI know. I've heard exactly the same myself. It's a mindset that I think I've figured out after hearing it on multiple occasions but it makes no sense for a society to think this way, nor does it in anyway benefit the country.
- s1artibartfast 5y agoI think you misunderstand the use of 'free'. In the USA, free can be used to mean free to the consumer, but paid by someone else. The US has uncontrolled education costs, a surplus of irrelevant college degrees, and many object to taxes to pay for others. For example, If someone can't afford to buy a house and support a family, in part due to taxes, they understandably wouldn't want to pay more taxes to so that someone else can enjoy some fanciful degree. There is an abundance of very good low cost colleges, but many advocate that elite colleges with marble walls that cost 1-200k+ should be payed for with public funds