7 ms·

Windows 11 is no longer compatible with Oracle VirtualBox VMs

53 points by jnieminen 5y ago

mrlonglong 5y ago
How come I currently have an instance of Windows 11 working just fine under VirtualBox?
- mycall 5y ago
  Because it is not RTM. More restrictions on the way.
  - mrlonglong 5y ago
    Why they they so hot on needing the TPM?
    - mycall 5y ago
      So they can sell more computers and Windows licenses.
    - winthrowe 5y ago
      Several reasons, but the biggest I see is Passwordless. Windows 10 can act as a FIDO2 authenticator like a Yubikey, but needs a TPM to do so. They want this to be something that actually happens for the average user in windows 11.
  - mrlonglong 5y ago
    Sigh. Already happened, went to update my Windows 11 instance to latest and I was greeted with a message TPM now required. Hopefully some big corps will get annoyed and start twisting arms to make it optional. To upgrade computers can run to the millions.
rejectfinite 5y ago
I always preferred VMWare workstation anyway. The downside is its harder to install a small easy VM on work PCs.
- marcodiego 5y ago
  Virtualbox license is better.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
teruakohatu 5y ago
Does TPM pass though mean that the virtualized OS knows the identity of the host hardware?
- azalemeth 5y ago
  Yes, and I can't help but think this will be used for more draconian DRM. I'm equally sure that soon people will have emulated TPMs that will act as a plug-in too.
rubyist5eva 5y ago
My life is no longer compatible with Windows.
- errantmind 5y ago
  Indeed. With the existence of Proton my last reason for keeping Windows around is gone. I'm about to switch my last computer to Linux.
  - fuzzfactor 5y ago
    If everything goes well, there will be finally be enough top engineers working on making Linux more fully substitute for Windows, than there have been Microsoft employees. This is a very critical milestone.
  - rubyist5eva 5y ago
    I’m actually considering just blowing away Windows on my gaming media center and just replacing it with Ubuntu. Most of my games work on proton anyway, anti cheat support is coming (thanks Stram Deck) and I’m just fed up with Microsoft’s constant built-in ads and notifications nagging, constant intrusive updates if I don’t use it for a while and even just the other day my video driver was corrupt and had to do a factory reset reinstall. Tired of the nonsense.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
Until VirtualBox implements TPM 2.0 pass through, which they've already started working on: https://www.virtualbox.org/changeset/90946/vbox https://www.virtualbox.org/changeset/90946/vbox Qemu already supports TPM pass through and secure boot.
- mrlonglong 5y ago
  I fear that might not be a good thing. Wouldn't it be better and safer to just emulate TPM in the VM?
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    It sounds like VMWare agrees with you. > Unlike VMware, which creates a virtual TPM, VirtualBox's new driver will require a host to have a TPM 2.0 processor for this feature to work.
    - mrlonglong 5y ago
      VMWare's is the right approach. I wouldn't want a Linux system's TPM polluted with MS keys.
  - gtvwill 5y ago
    Errr they want real TPM functionality. Emulation kinda nerfs the whole point of it. It's a hardware key. If you could just emulate it what would stop you spoofing it? Edit: autocorrect TPM
    - murgindrag 5y ago
      Well, modules can be designed to protect my security, or to harm my security (e.g. to enforce DRM). I'm unclear on how "real TPM" functionality helps me. If it helps secure Microsoft, and hurts my security, that's a good reason to not use Windows. I have not found good docs on what TPM exactly does in Windows 11, but people I trust tell me to distrust it, so I do.
yummypaint 5y ago
What does this do for the end user?
- fuzzfactor 5y ago
  It separates end users from more of their money for hardware, operating systems, and software as well as IT effort. In ways that are more immediate and more costly than anyone was anticipating, and can only get worse in future years. Looks like the idea of intentionally but unnecessarity requiring only the latest hardware could be just what the hardware makers have been wanting, and they were the majority of the customers paying Microsoft for Windows licenses since the free user upgrades to W10 from W7, W8, & W8.1. Because for years now most of the end users paying for a Windows license do it only when buying a new W10 computer. And Windows 11 may not be intended as a free upgrade from W10. But if W11 is only going to install on the newest hardware anyway, that's going to rule out retail purchases of Windows 11 upgrades for the majority of established users. So they're really going to try to push as many sales of new PCs as possible So far it looks like W11 could still end up being shunned no differently than W8, and only be used with disdain by those who have no other choice when purchasing a new PC. And it may not be possible to get much adoption of W11 unless it is offered as a free upgrade from W10 after all. In that case you can expect W12 to arrive shortly, not be a free upgrade, and for W11 to have an early EOL.
captainmuon 5y ago
Is there a way around this restriction? Does the registry hack that floated around when the first beta came out still work?
cryptixvi 5y ago
I've used the below tool (W11 Boot and Upgrade FiX KiT v2.0) to resolve this on an old VMware host. https://kutt.it/Bh0Mad https://kutt.it/Bh0Mad Password MDL2021 Simple to do, works fine for me. I built the original image using uudump.net Im not the creator or author of either tool just a satisfied user.
hilbert42 5y ago
I'm ever so glad that my Windows machines are still running Win 7 with auto updates nuked. That's the way it'll remain until the hardware fails. Of course, newer hardware runs Linux and replacements will also run Linux. Microsoft Windows is now so out of kilter with users' actual realworld needs that I don't fully understand why people haven't migrated away from it droves.
greatgib 5y ago
Hopefully I don't use windows, but it is incredible that it does not piss off more people that you can't use an entire OS just because of a hw module required only for a small feature used by a minority of users. Mostly corporate. But if you think long term, it makes sense for Microsoft: They dream about having the same control as apple and Google have on their devices. The problem is that nothing prevent users to be the master of their machine and doing whatever they want with it. With the tpm module, they can start to restrict some things to you on your own computer, controlled by the tpm, and as an user you will have not way to do anything about it. Like copy your data to another computer.

53 points by jnieminen 5y ago

mrlonglong 5y ago

How come I currently have an instance of Windows 11 working just fine under VirtualBox?

mycall 5y ago
Because it is not RTM. More restrictions on the way.
- mrlonglong 5y ago
  Why they they so hot on needing the TPM?
  - mycall 5y ago
    So they can sell more computers and Windows licenses.
  - winthrowe 5y ago
    Several reasons, but the biggest I see is Passwordless. Windows 10 can act as a FIDO2 authenticator like a Yubikey, but needs a TPM to do so. They want this to be something that actually happens for the average user in windows 11.
- mrlonglong 5y ago
  Sigh. Already happened, went to update my Windows 11 instance to latest and I was greeted with a message TPM now required. Hopefully some big corps will get annoyed and start twisting arms to make it optional. To upgrade computers can run to the millions.

rejectfinite 5y ago

I always preferred VMWare workstation anyway. The downside is its harder to install a small easy VM on work PCs.

marcodiego 5y ago
Virtualbox license is better.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

teruakohatu 5y ago

Does TPM pass though mean that the virtualized OS knows the identity of the host hardware?

azalemeth 5y ago
Yes, and I can't help but think this will be used for more draconian DRM. I'm equally sure that soon people will have emulated TPMs that will act as a plug-in too.

rubyist5eva 5y ago

My life is no longer compatible with Windows.

errantmind 5y ago
Indeed. With the existence of Proton my last reason for keeping Windows around is gone. I'm about to switch my last computer to Linux.
- fuzzfactor 5y ago
  If everything goes well, there will be finally be enough top engineers working on making Linux more fully substitute for Windows, than there have been Microsoft employees. This is a very critical milestone.
- rubyist5eva 5y ago
  I’m actually considering just blowing away Windows on my gaming media center and just replacing it with Ubuntu. Most of my games work on proton anyway, anti cheat support is coming (thanks Stram Deck) and I’m just fed up with Microsoft’s constant built-in ads and notifications nagging, constant intrusive updates if I don’t use it for a while and even just the other day my video driver was corrupt and had to do a factory reset reinstall. Tired of the nonsense.

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

Until VirtualBox implements TPM 2.0 pass through, which they've already started working on: https://www.virtualbox.org/changeset/90946/vbox https://www.virtualbox.org/changeset/90946/vbox Qemu already supports TPM pass through and secure boot.

mrlonglong 5y ago
I fear that might not be a good thing. Wouldn't it be better and safer to just emulate TPM in the VM?
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  It sounds like VMWare agrees with you. > Unlike VMware, which creates a virtual TPM, VirtualBox's new driver will require a host to have a TPM 2.0 processor for this feature to work.
  - mrlonglong 5y ago
    VMWare's is the right approach. I wouldn't want a Linux system's TPM polluted with MS keys.
- gtvwill 5y ago
  Errr they want real TPM functionality. Emulation kinda nerfs the whole point of it. It's a hardware key. If you could just emulate it what would stop you spoofing it? Edit: autocorrect TPM
  - murgindrag 5y ago
    Well, modules can be designed to protect my security, or to harm my security (e.g. to enforce DRM). I'm unclear on how "real TPM" functionality helps me. If it helps secure Microsoft, and hurts my security, that's a good reason to not use Windows. I have not found good docs on what TPM exactly does in Windows 11, but people I trust tell me to distrust it, so I do.

yummypaint 5y ago

What does this do for the end user?

fuzzfactor 5y ago
It separates end users from more of their money for hardware, operating systems, and software as well as IT effort. In ways that are more immediate and more costly than anyone was anticipating, and can only get worse in future years. Looks like the idea of intentionally but unnecessarity requiring only the latest hardware could be just what the hardware makers have been wanting, and they were the majority of the customers paying Microsoft for Windows licenses since the free user upgrades to W10 from W7, W8, & W8.1. Because for years now most of the end users paying for a Windows license do it only when buying a new W10 computer. And Windows 11 may not be intended as a free upgrade from W10. But if W11 is only going to install on the newest hardware anyway, that's going to rule out retail purchases of Windows 11 upgrades for the majority of established users. So they're really going to try to push as many sales of new PCs as possible So far it looks like W11 could still end up being shunned no differently than W8, and only be used with disdain by those who have no other choice when purchasing a new PC. And it may not be possible to get much adoption of W11 unless it is offered as a free upgrade from W10 after all. In that case you can expect W12 to arrive shortly, not be a free upgrade, and for W11 to have an early EOL.

captainmuon 5y ago

Is there a way around this restriction? Does the registry hack that floated around when the first beta came out still work?

cryptixvi 5y ago

I've used the below tool (W11 Boot and Upgrade FiX KiT v2.0) to resolve this on an old VMware host. https://kutt.it/Bh0Mad https://kutt.it/Bh0Mad Password MDL2021 Simple to do, works fine for me. I built the original image using uudump.net Im not the creator or author of either tool just a satisfied user.

hilbert42 5y ago

I'm ever so glad that my Windows machines are still running Win 7 with auto updates nuked. That's the way it'll remain until the hardware fails. Of course, newer hardware runs Linux and replacements will also run Linux. Microsoft Windows is now so out of kilter with users' actual realworld needs that I don't fully understand why people haven't migrated away from it droves.

greatgib 5y ago

Hopefully I don't use windows, but it is incredible that it does not piss off more people that you can't use an entire OS just because of a hw module required only for a small feature used by a minority of users. Mostly corporate. But if you think long term, it makes sense for Microsoft: They dream about having the same control as apple and Google have on their devices. The problem is that nothing prevent users to be the master of their machine and doing whatever they want with it. With the tpm module, they can start to restrict some things to you on your own computer, controlled by the tpm, and as an user you will have not way to do anything about it. Like copy your data to another computer.