4 ms·

Tempelhofer Feld is for the most part an abandoned field, if half of it were used to build housing a problem would be solved and no damage would be done. The i

by mmarq 5y ago

Tempelhofer Feld is for the most part an abandoned field, if half of it were used to build housing a problem would be solved and no damage would be done. The issue there is the usual weird coalition between landlords that don’t want more residents (if they live there) or more competition (if they rent their flat) and the fringe of the green/left that is worried about urbanisation, gentrification economic activity.

ratww 5y ago
It's not abandoned. I was there earlier and it was full of people having fun and exercising. People need the space. It's not fair to force a whole city to live their lives entirely in 25m2 apartments, if more apartments are built, there's a chance more will go to speculators. I, and a large portion of Berlin, would rather force speculators out.
- mmarq 5y ago
  It doesn’t have to be speculators, whatever that’s supposed to mean, it could be social housing built and managed by the city council. And, of course, “half of it” was a hyperbole.
  - ratww 5y ago
    My issue with it is that it won't help with the problem at hand. Sure, it might help tip the scale of rent prices, but lack of units or even rents are not the issue in Berlin. Sure, it's way more expensive than before, but rents are still payable. The issue is that it's very difficult for individuals to acquire housing units. My apartment costs about 1500x its monthly rent to acquire (€400 vs €600k min). Which means it's now a lousy investment for people wanting to live in it (since they won't be saving any money unless live to be 150 years old), and for people wanting to buy a small number of properties to rent (same deal). Since real estate is traditionally kind of a "future insurance", for old people not to have to rely on pension to live, it also makes the future a lot grim and uncertain for people who'll have to rely on public pension for a place to live. Getting more units in the market will only make things worse for those people: rent prices will make it impossible for them to own, and won't make sense for them to own to rent. Individuals not being able to acquire apartments also has the side effects of things like crazy rental terms (not difficult to see the best apartments with limit of 6 months rental) or even empty units because they're used for commercial renting only. Across the street from me there's a 50-unit condo that's fully empty. I know that because I used to live there and for a while I was the only tenant. It costs about €2000 a month vs my €400. I don't know what's the endgame of speculators. Maybe they're waiting to own everything so that they can jack up the prices? Maybe they're merely taking opportunity of the low interest rates to pay for those things in 100 years? Is that investment companies buying it to force people into private pension? I don't know. I just know that the issue is a lot darker and I don't see "the market" solving it by itself without creating even more problems. I know this is a very sensitive matter to some people but I just don't see "the market" doing anything positive if left by itself. EDIT: As user probably_wrong put below, "the losses would be socialized (namely, the park) while the benefits would go to the wealthy."
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  Speculators generally want to constrain supply as much as possible. That's good for their investment.
  - ratww 5y ago
    They also have the power to acquire anything new showing up, which is exactly what happened in the last ten years. I can't explain their end game as it doesn't make sense to me, but what Berlin needs is not more units, but rather more units that are affordable to non-speculators. As user probably_wrong put it below, "the losses would be socialized (namely, the park) while the benefits would go to the wealthy."
    - fighterpilot 5y ago
      Speculators as an aggregate voting block want less supply. This might seem counter intuitive since it is simultaneously true that a new development is an investment opportunity. What we need is more units. The affordability to non-speculators follows from that, which is just supply and demand playing out. If you double supply via high rise apartments, the value is guaranteed to drop significantly. Increasing supply by removing regulations around apartment construction also reduces the incentive to buy to invest. Who would want to invest when the supply is liable to increase?
      - ratww 5y ago
        That's a fine opinion, but I and others in Berlin would also prefer not having to have high rises just because there are speculators. The issue in Berlin is not really lack of units, this is not San Francisco. The problem here is purely the rampant speculation. I don't follow the same economical dogmas you do. In my opinion it's not about supply or demand, but purely about a certain group of investors fucking up everyone lives. I'd prefer to attack this problem head-on rather than having bandaids that involve destroying Tempelhofer Feld or removing the Kleingarten, like other people suggested.
        fighterpilot 5y ago
- luckylion 5y ago
  > People need the space. It's not fair to force a whole city to live their lives entirely in 25m2 apartments What? Berlin has lots of parks and public areas, much more than Munich and slightly more than Frankfurt or Dusseldorf. You make it sound like Berlin is full of cramped buildings and someone is trying to take away the last open space. That's absolutely not true.
  - ratww 5y ago
    Suggestions on this thread were to use half of Tempelhofer Feld and all Kleingarten to counteract what are the effects of speculation. All I am saying is that those areas are not "useless" by any means. I'd rather attack speculation head-on that have band-aid solutions. I also don't believe that removing those areas will make any difference regarding speculation. Again, as user probably_wrong put below, "the losses would be socialized (namely, the park) while the benefits would go to the wealthy."
sagichmal 5y ago
Tempelhofer is an enormous asset of the city and turning half of it into apartments would be a disgrace.
mejutoco 5y ago
If somebody reading this has never been to Tempelhof, I would recommend (please allow me) to think of it as a Park. It is a big area for leisure, with some portable stands for coffee, community gardens, small sport courts, bbq area and grass. And the old airport runways right in the middle of it to run, skate, ride the bike, etc. On one side it also has the actual airport building. They have very interesting historical tours there. You can see a couple of representative photos here. https://www.npr.org/2018/08/11/634394533/the-site-of-the-berlin-airlift-now-serves-as-refugee-shelter-and-big-open-park https://www.npr.org/2018/08/11/634394533/the-site-of-the-ber...
- wearywanderer 5y ago
  No offense but that park looks like crap. Can't the city at least plant a few trees?
  - nicbou 5y ago
    There are parks with trees all over the city. This is an open plain that's home to festivals, kite surfers, cyclists etc.
jounker 5y ago
It’s not abandoned. It’s an incredibly heavily used park. People skate and kite board on the old runways. The are community gardens. Portions of the fields are breeding sides for locally threatened bird species. The list of things that happen there goes on and on. Tempelhofer field is one of the jewels of the city.
nicbou 5y ago
For the most part abandoned? Have you ever been there? On a sunny day this place is packed to the brim.

by mmarq 5y ago

ratww 5y ago

It's not abandoned. I was there earlier and it was full of people having fun and exercising. People need the space. It's not fair to force a whole city to live their lives entirely in 25m2 apartments, if more apartments are built, there's a chance more will go to speculators. I, and a large portion of Berlin, would rather force speculators out.

mmarq 5y ago
It doesn’t have to be speculators, whatever that’s supposed to mean, it could be social housing built and managed by the city council. And, of course, “half of it” was a hyperbole.
- ratww 5y ago
  My issue with it is that it won't help with the problem at hand. Sure, it might help tip the scale of rent prices, but lack of units or even rents are not the issue in Berlin. Sure, it's way more expensive than before, but rents are still payable. The issue is that it's very difficult for individuals to acquire housing units. My apartment costs about 1500x its monthly rent to acquire (€400 vs €600k min). Which means it's now a lousy investment for people wanting to live in it (since they won't be saving any money unless live to be 150 years old), and for people wanting to buy a small number of properties to rent (same deal). Since real estate is traditionally kind of a "future insurance", for old people not to have to rely on pension to live, it also makes the future a lot grim and uncertain for people who'll have to rely on public pension for a place to live. Getting more units in the market will only make things worse for those people: rent prices will make it impossible for them to own, and won't make sense for them to own to rent. Individuals not being able to acquire apartments also has the side effects of things like crazy rental terms (not difficult to see the best apartments with limit of 6 months rental) or even empty units because they're used for commercial renting only. Across the street from me there's a 50-unit condo that's fully empty. I know that because I used to live there and for a while I was the only tenant. It costs about €2000 a month vs my €400. I don't know what's the endgame of speculators. Maybe they're waiting to own everything so that they can jack up the prices? Maybe they're merely taking opportunity of the low interest rates to pay for those things in 100 years? Is that investment companies buying it to force people into private pension? I don't know. I just know that the issue is a lot darker and I don't see "the market" solving it by itself without creating even more problems. I know this is a very sensitive matter to some people but I just don't see "the market" doing anything positive if left by itself. EDIT: As user probably_wrong put below, "the losses would be socialized (namely, the park) while the benefits would go to the wealthy."
fighterpilot 5y ago
Speculators generally want to constrain supply as much as possible. That's good for their investment.
- ratww 5y ago
  They also have the power to acquire anything new showing up, which is exactly what happened in the last ten years. I can't explain their end game as it doesn't make sense to me, but what Berlin needs is not more units, but rather more units that are affordable to non-speculators. As user probably_wrong put it below, "the losses would be socialized (namely, the park) while the benefits would go to the wealthy."
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    Speculators as an aggregate voting block want less supply. This might seem counter intuitive since it is simultaneously true that a new development is an investment opportunity. What we need is more units. The affordability to non-speculators follows from that, which is just supply and demand playing out. If you double supply via high rise apartments, the value is guaranteed to drop significantly. Increasing supply by removing regulations around apartment construction also reduces the incentive to buy to invest. Who would want to invest when the supply is liable to increase?
    - ratww 5y ago
      That's a fine opinion, but I and others in Berlin would also prefer not having to have high rises just because there are speculators. The issue in Berlin is not really lack of units, this is not San Francisco. The problem here is purely the rampant speculation. I don't follow the same economical dogmas you do. In my opinion it's not about supply or demand, but purely about a certain group of investors fucking up everyone lives. I'd prefer to attack this problem head-on rather than having bandaids that involve destroying Tempelhofer Feld or removing the Kleingarten, like other people suggested.
      - fighterpilot 5y ago
luckylion 5y ago
> People need the space. It's not fair to force a whole city to live their lives entirely in 25m2 apartments What? Berlin has lots of parks and public areas, much more than Munich and slightly more than Frankfurt or Dusseldorf. You make it sound like Berlin is full of cramped buildings and someone is trying to take away the last open space. That's absolutely not true.
- ratww 5y ago
  Suggestions on this thread were to use half of Tempelhofer Feld and all Kleingarten to counteract what are the effects of speculation. All I am saying is that those areas are not "useless" by any means. I'd rather attack speculation head-on that have band-aid solutions. I also don't believe that removing those areas will make any difference regarding speculation. Again, as user probably_wrong put below, "the losses would be socialized (namely, the park) while the benefits would go to the wealthy."

sagichmal 5y ago

Tempelhofer is an enormous asset of the city and turning half of it into apartments would be a disgrace.

mejutoco 5y ago

If somebody reading this has never been to Tempelhof, I would recommend (please allow me) to think of it as a Park. It is a big area for leisure, with some portable stands for coffee, community gardens, small sport courts, bbq area and grass. And the old airport runways right in the middle of it to run, skate, ride the bike, etc. On one side it also has the actual airport building. They have very interesting historical tours there. You can see a couple of representative photos here. https://www.npr.org/2018/08/11/634394533/the-site-of-the-berlin-airlift-now-serves-as-refugee-shelter-and-big-open-park https://www.npr.org/2018/08/11/634394533/the-site-of-the-ber...

wearywanderer 5y ago
No offense but that park looks like crap. Can't the city at least plant a few trees?
- nicbou 5y ago
  There are parks with trees all over the city. This is an open plain that's home to festivals, kite surfers, cyclists etc.

jounker 5y ago

It’s not abandoned. It’s an incredibly heavily used park. People skate and kite board on the old runways. The are community gardens. Portions of the fields are breeding sides for locally threatened bird species. The list of things that happen there goes on and on. Tempelhofer field is one of the jewels of the city.

nicbou 5y ago

For the most part abandoned? Have you ever been there? On a sunny day this place is packed to the brim.