5 ms·

As far as the whole WSL topic, I wonder how this is going to play out long-term for MS. I understand why MS' hand was forced to streamline *nix development wor

by skohan 5y ago

As far as the whole WSL topic, I wonder how this is going to play out long-term for MS. I understand why MS' hand was forced to streamline *nix development workflows on Windows in order to retain any relevance in modern software development, but what's the incentive to run windows at all if it's just a host environment for the OS where you get the real work done? I guess there's proprietary software, but for instance Proton is getting good enough that this might not be a major selling point for so much longer. For non-technical users, linux is a ways off from being a serious option as a daily driver. But as a developer, why on earth would I choose Windows over Linux in 2021?

benno128 5y ago
My friends who use WSL have gone the other way. Instead of dual-booting Linux and Windows they now don’t see a need for Linux. Why use compatibility layers like Proton when you can just have Windows?
- skohan 5y ago
  It's funny because most people I know have gone exactly the other way. Why use nosy and intrusive Windows when you can run all your games directly in Linux? What value is Windows adding here?
  - pabs3 5y ago
    > What value is Windows adding here? Windows is mostly the default; if you buy a computer it comes with Windows, if your employer gives you a computer it comes with Windows and with some employers you aren't even allowed to replace the OS, so having compatibility with Linux (and Android?) is a plus for devs. Another advantage is that the drivers for Linux might not yet exist or be stable, while the proprietary Windows drivers probably exist and work.
    - skohan 5y ago
      Being the default isn't a strong argument if Windows is just a means to get to a linux dev environment. If all you are is a middleman, sooner or later people figure out they don't really need you.
      - lokedhs 5y ago
        That was how OS/2 lost. After Windows became more popular they marketed themselves as being a better way to run Windows, and at the time it was true, it was more stable, did proper multitasking etc. But, people didn't care. OS/2 didn't actually provide any real features, and there wasn't much OS/2 software out there so it didn't take long until it was irrelevant. Granted, in the case of WSl things are less obvious, but Windows really needs a hook to keep developers in. But all I see is new features allowing you to run GUI software in WSL as well. As someone who has disliked Microsoft since a few years long time, it's amusing to see how the things changed.
  - aacid 5y ago
    It's hardware. I really wanted to use linux as my main OS, but my logitech wireless mouse with additional buttons and ability to switch DPI suddenly became basic 3 button mouse. I get no information when my headset battery is low for example. Also don't even start about laptop experience. Poor battery, bluetooth issues, unable to change display brightness. Now I have newer thinkpad which is linux certified and most problems are gone, but for example trackpad experience is still much much worse than on windows. Yes, maybe I could spend numerous hours to find/develop workarounds and money to replace all my hardware with linux compatible one, but why when I can use OS which works with everything I plug in and also use all linux software I need in WSL.
robert_dipaolo 5y ago
Because it mostly just works. I don't want to spend time that could have been spent doing actual work debugging random hardware and software issues. I also don't like MacOS (or apple hardware in general). WSL provides an excellent middle ground, a stable OS, that just works and has excellent hardware and software compatibility while also giving you a full Linux environment. I like Linux and do run various distros on home pc's and old laptops. I've tried using it on work laptops many times (last time a few years ago) and end up getting frustrated after a while with lack of compatibility, broken drivers, poor battery life, etc and go back to Windows and get on with stuff uninterrupted.
- yoyohello13 5y ago
  Unfortunately, I feel like I have just as many problems on Windows as I do on Linux these days.
  - skohan 5y ago
    Yes I have never heard of Windows described as a "just works" experience. There's a whole IT industry built on top of Windows' flaws
    - psd1 5y ago
      Deeply ignorant remark. I'm going to quote it so you can't weasel: > Yes I have never heard of Windows described as a "just works" experience. There's a whole IT industry built on top of Windows' flaws I hate bullshit. I hate lies and bullshit. I regularly see uptime over a year on Windows servers. Longest I've seen is 1200 days. I'm sure we've got longer in the crusty governmental section. These boxes aren't falling over, I see them when someone notices they are unpatched, which ought to tell you everything about the effort required to operate them. Some grunt had "done the needful" and they just sat there serving pages until we brought them into patch management. These boxes are worth every penny of the license because they just work. I have in no way run out of steam, I can continue for hours. Let's discuss the oom killer, shall we? Or how about "fix permissions" on Mac, if that's still a thing that Geniuses get paid for? Like, what do you want, ballmer's head on a spike?
andix 5y ago
WSL (and Docker) makes Windows now kind of the most versatile development platform. You can natively develop for Windows, Linux and Android. With .NET you have limited macOS and iOS development capabilities. And you have the benefit, that Windows is the de-facto standard for desktop software, so everything will just run there. All games, all commercial software, also the software your company bought 15 years ago and is still working.
- skohan 5y ago
  But what is relevant to develop targeting Windows? Outside of AAA video-games, most people are using electron or other web tech to target Windows. At least on mac you get access to iOS development which is legitimately marketable.
nonameiguess 5y ago
There are too many different types of "developers." I read about all these people talking about playing AAA games being a concern on work computers, and that is not something I have ever even considered. A gaming computer that I own is totally separate from a work computer that my company purchased for me. I would expect even a solo dev would want to cleanly separate work and play, but I guess not. As to why you might still need Windows on a work computer, Office 365 is still limited compared to native Office, but of course Microsoft is pushing everyone to stop using native Office anyway. I still haven't found a way to sign a pdf with a smartcard on Linux yet, which is literally the only reason I still need Windows because of account provisioning workflows that haven't gone full auto yet and still require pdfs digitally signed with a smartcard. The other reason is your employer requires a Windows computer because you're in a big company with an IT department that requires remote management agents, which exist on Linux, but are a lot more mature and common on Windows. The final really obvious reason is you need to target Windows as a platform or both Windows and Linux and find it easier to put a Linux VM in Windows, especially now that WSL exists and does it for you, rather than the other way around. I do wonder what hardware people are still having issues with. I can understand if you're using something like Arch that comes with almost nothing in the base system and expects you to know what packages you need for your peripherals, but for a kitchen sink distro like Fedora or Ubuntu, they seem to pretty much just work at this point. I've run them on laptops, with external monitors, external webcams, wireless keyboards and mice, Bluetooth headsets with microphones, eARC soundbars, WiFi 6, smartcard readers, NVIDIA GPUs, using a television as a monitor. Every single one of those things "just worked" the first time I plugged it in. The only hardware issues I have had in the past two years are: 1. aRGB LED controller software and PWM fan control software only runs on Windows because the vendors don't use open standards and don't make Linux versions of their proprietary software 2. Microsoft Teams on Windows never seems to work with a Bluetooth microphone, but every other program that accepts audio input uses it just fine
- exikyut 5y ago
  > I still haven't found a way to sign a pdf with a smartcard on Linux yet, which is literally the only reason I still need Windows <nerdsnipe>oooooooo, Interesting™</nerdsnipe> I toyed around with smart cards a little while back after discovering a reader in an old laptop's PCMCIA slot (yes, I said old, shhh :P). A truly fascinating and horrendously broken/fragmented ecosystem. Taking a look around, apparently LibreOffice can sign PDFs if the rest of the system is configured correctly (https://forum.manjaro.org/t/linux-pdf-signing-software/28519/8 https://forum.manjaro.org/t/linux-pdf-signing-software/28519..., https://vmiklos.hu/blog/pdf-sign.html https://vmiklos.hu/blog/pdf-sign.html), the Arch Wiki has some interesting country-specific notes on electronic ID (https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Electronic_identification https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Electronic_identification), and the CAcert wiki which you've probably already seen was updated in March this year to add a mention of LibreOffice (https://web.archive.org/web/diff/20210506235206/20200125024630/http://wiki.cacert.org/PdfSigning https://web.archive.org/web/diff/20210506235206/202001250246...). This honestly sounds fun to figure out... but that's almost certainly cuz I haven't repeatedly banged my head against the wall for however many hours/days/weeks ;)

by skohan 5y ago

benno128 5y ago

My friends who use WSL have gone the other way. Instead of dual-booting Linux and Windows they now don’t see a need for Linux. Why use compatibility layers like Proton when you can just have Windows?

skohan 5y ago
It's funny because most people I know have gone exactly the other way. Why use nosy and intrusive Windows when you can run all your games directly in Linux? What value is Windows adding here?
- pabs3 5y ago
  > What value is Windows adding here? Windows is mostly the default; if you buy a computer it comes with Windows, if your employer gives you a computer it comes with Windows and with some employers you aren't even allowed to replace the OS, so having compatibility with Linux (and Android?) is a plus for devs. Another advantage is that the drivers for Linux might not yet exist or be stable, while the proprietary Windows drivers probably exist and work.
  - skohan 5y ago
    Being the default isn't a strong argument if Windows is just a means to get to a linux dev environment. If all you are is a middleman, sooner or later people figure out they don't really need you.
    - lokedhs 5y ago
      That was how OS/2 lost. After Windows became more popular they marketed themselves as being a better way to run Windows, and at the time it was true, it was more stable, did proper multitasking etc. But, people didn't care. OS/2 didn't actually provide any real features, and there wasn't much OS/2 software out there so it didn't take long until it was irrelevant. Granted, in the case of WSl things are less obvious, but Windows really needs a hook to keep developers in. But all I see is new features allowing you to run GUI software in WSL as well. As someone who has disliked Microsoft since a few years long time, it's amusing to see how the things changed.
- aacid 5y ago
  It's hardware. I really wanted to use linux as my main OS, but my logitech wireless mouse with additional buttons and ability to switch DPI suddenly became basic 3 button mouse. I get no information when my headset battery is low for example. Also don't even start about laptop experience. Poor battery, bluetooth issues, unable to change display brightness. Now I have newer thinkpad which is linux certified and most problems are gone, but for example trackpad experience is still much much worse than on windows. Yes, maybe I could spend numerous hours to find/develop workarounds and money to replace all my hardware with linux compatible one, but why when I can use OS which works with everything I plug in and also use all linux software I need in WSL.

robert_dipaolo 5y ago

Because it mostly just works. I don't want to spend time that could have been spent doing actual work debugging random hardware and software issues. I also don't like MacOS (or apple hardware in general). WSL provides an excellent middle ground, a stable OS, that just works and has excellent hardware and software compatibility while also giving you a full Linux environment. I like Linux and do run various distros on home pc's and old laptops. I've tried using it on work laptops many times (last time a few years ago) and end up getting frustrated after a while with lack of compatibility, broken drivers, poor battery life, etc and go back to Windows and get on with stuff uninterrupted.

yoyohello13 5y ago
Unfortunately, I feel like I have just as many problems on Windows as I do on Linux these days.
- skohan 5y ago
  Yes I have never heard of Windows described as a "just works" experience. There's a whole IT industry built on top of Windows' flaws
  - psd1 5y ago
    Deeply ignorant remark. I'm going to quote it so you can't weasel: > Yes I have never heard of Windows described as a "just works" experience. There's a whole IT industry built on top of Windows' flaws I hate bullshit. I hate lies and bullshit. I regularly see uptime over a year on Windows servers. Longest I've seen is 1200 days. I'm sure we've got longer in the crusty governmental section. These boxes aren't falling over, I see them when someone notices they are unpatched, which ought to tell you everything about the effort required to operate them. Some grunt had "done the needful" and they just sat there serving pages until we brought them into patch management. These boxes are worth every penny of the license because they just work. I have in no way run out of steam, I can continue for hours. Let's discuss the oom killer, shall we? Or how about "fix permissions" on Mac, if that's still a thing that Geniuses get paid for? Like, what do you want, ballmer's head on a spike?

andix 5y ago

WSL (and Docker) makes Windows now kind of the most versatile development platform. You can natively develop for Windows, Linux and Android. With .NET you have limited macOS and iOS development capabilities. And you have the benefit, that Windows is the de-facto standard for desktop software, so everything will just run there. All games, all commercial software, also the software your company bought 15 years ago and is still working.

skohan 5y ago
But what is relevant to develop targeting Windows? Outside of AAA video-games, most people are using electron or other web tech to target Windows. At least on mac you get access to iOS development which is legitimately marketable.

nonameiguess 5y ago

There are too many different types of "developers." I read about all these people talking about playing AAA games being a concern on work computers, and that is not something I have ever even considered. A gaming computer that I own is totally separate from a work computer that my company purchased for me. I would expect even a solo dev would want to cleanly separate work and play, but I guess not. As to why you might still need Windows on a work computer, Office 365 is still limited compared to native Office, but of course Microsoft is pushing everyone to stop using native Office anyway. I still haven't found a way to sign a pdf with a smartcard on Linux yet, which is literally the only reason I still need Windows because of account provisioning workflows that haven't gone full auto yet and still require pdfs digitally signed with a smartcard. The other reason is your employer requires a Windows computer because you're in a big company with an IT department that requires remote management agents, which exist on Linux, but are a lot more mature and common on Windows. The final really obvious reason is you need to target Windows as a platform or both Windows and Linux and find it easier to put a Linux VM in Windows, especially now that WSL exists and does it for you, rather than the other way around. I do wonder what hardware people are still having issues with. I can understand if you're using something like Arch that comes with almost nothing in the base system and expects you to know what packages you need for your peripherals, but for a kitchen sink distro like Fedora or Ubuntu, they seem to pretty much just work at this point. I've run them on laptops, with external monitors, external webcams, wireless keyboards and mice, Bluetooth headsets with microphones, eARC soundbars, WiFi 6, smartcard readers, NVIDIA GPUs, using a television as a monitor. Every single one of those things "just worked" the first time I plugged it in. The only hardware issues I have had in the past two years are: 1. aRGB LED controller software and PWM fan control software only runs on Windows because the vendors don't use open standards and don't make Linux versions of their proprietary software 2. Microsoft Teams on Windows never seems to work with a Bluetooth microphone, but every other program that accepts audio input uses it just fine

exikyut 5y ago
> I still haven't found a way to sign a pdf with a smartcard on Linux yet, which is literally the only reason I still need Windows <nerdsnipe>oooooooo, Interesting™</nerdsnipe> I toyed around with smart cards a little while back after discovering a reader in an old laptop's PCMCIA slot (yes, I said old, shhh :P). A truly fascinating and horrendously broken/fragmented ecosystem. Taking a look around, apparently LibreOffice can sign PDFs if the rest of the system is configured correctly (https://forum.manjaro.org/t/linux-pdf-signing-software/28519/8 https://forum.manjaro.org/t/linux-pdf-signing-software/28519..., https://vmiklos.hu/blog/pdf-sign.html https://vmiklos.hu/blog/pdf-sign.html), the Arch Wiki has some interesting country-specific notes on electronic ID (https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Electronic_identification https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Electronic_identification), and the CAcert wiki which you've probably already seen was updated in March this year to add a mention of LibreOffice (https://web.archive.org/web/diff/20210506235206/20200125024630/http://wiki.cacert.org/PdfSigning https://web.archive.org/web/diff/20210506235206/202001250246...). This honestly sounds fun to figure out... but that's almost certainly cuz I haven't repeatedly banged my head against the wall for however many hours/days/weeks ;)