4 ms·

> One must keep in mind that the United States is and near or more always has been a welfare state. If one must keep that in mind, may one ask what definition

> One must keep in mind that the United States is and near or more always has been a welfare state. If one must keep that in mind, may one ask what definition of "welfare state" has applied to the USA since its founding?

s5300 5y ago
Religious groups typically look after their own. Take care of the poor, needy, and disabled. For quite a long time, most US states were essentially religious areas/boundaries, which is why much of New England is seen as quite puritanical to this day. Go read about the history of Mormons and Utah. The reason the surrounding borders are so weird is because the U.S. gov essentially tried to thwart a larger land grab by the LDS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Deseret https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Deseret Their tenants were largely about taking care of each other. So, in short - there were a lot of welfare states, mostly segregated by religion. As time went on, they mostly morphed into an encompassing welfare state. Do you disagree? HN is definitely a tough crowd when it comes to ideas of helping the less fortunate it seems. Hopefully your future physical therapists won't charge too much when your ruined backs and wrists are hurting, despite the fact capitalism says "why shouldn't they reap your pains for all they're worth"
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  I don't know, you still haven't provided me with your definition of "welfare state" that has applied to the USA. Certain groups choosing to take care of their members is not a welfare state so I'm not too sure what you're getting at there.
- google234123 5y ago
  You've definitely not convinced me that the US was founded as a welfare state.
- samhwr 5y ago
  > Their tenants were largely about taking care of each other. For what it’s worth, you almost certainly mean ‘tenets’. I don’t know why, but this malapropism has become increasingly common. Tenants are people who rent a property.
  - Tommah 5y ago
    > I don’t know why Both words come from the Latin tenere, to hold. A tenant is someone who holds a lease. A tenet is a belief that is held.
    - samhwr 5y ago
      Yeah, after wasting eight years of my life doing Latin at school I understand the basic etymology, but I’m confused because the English meanings aren’t very close. Your careful phrasing manages to get the word ‘hold’ into both of them, but ‘someone who holds a lease’ isn’t a very natural-sounding definition of ‘tenant’, and the notion that most people who make this mistake are familiar with the paradigm of teneo feels rather tenuous (plus ‘tenant’ noticeably isn’t a Latin ending, it’s apparently Old French, though transitively descended from teneo). You don’t think it’s more likely, if anything, to be that they just sound similar?
krrrh 5y ago
> may one ask what definition of "welfare state" has applied to the USA since its founding? I’m going to assume that this is a serious question and try to quickly answer it in good faith. A quick search finds these figures [0] from the Congressional Research Service. “CRS identified 83 overlapping federal welfare programs that together represented the single largest budget item in 2011—more than the nation spends on Social Security, Medicare, or national defense. The total amount spent on these 80-plus federal welfare programs amounts to roughly $1.03 trillion. Importantly, these figures solely refer to means-tested welfare benefits. They exclude entitlement programs to which people contribute (e.g., Social Security and Medicare).” Social Security and Medicare are massive entitlements beyond welfare spending that are all but sacrosanct in US politics, and that’s just federal spending. Looking at total social spending as a share of GDP [1], the US is in line with Australia and Canada at 2016 numbers. The difference between the US at 19% and the Netherlands or Japan at 22.5% or Germany at 25% is one of degree, not of kind. This is especially true when you consider that in absolute terms the difference is even smaller since the US has considerably higher GDP/capita than those countries. [0] https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/CRS%20Report%20-%20Welfare%20Spending%20The%20Largest%20Item%20In%20The%20Federal%20Budget.pdf https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/CRS%20Report%20-... [1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/social-spending-oecd-longrun https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/social-spending-oecd-long...
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  > I’m going to assume that this is a serious question and try to quickly answer it in good faith. It is a serious question and I was hoping for something closer to the late 1700s vintage. I'm well aware there is a vast welfare system in place today.
  - krrrh 5y ago
    Sorry I misread thinking you meant since it’s founding (until now), when has it been a welfare state. I was caught in a weak moment I guess.
    - samhwr 5y ago
Supermancho 5y ago
https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/events/1700s/ https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/events/1700s/ I'm sure there's plenty. From the Federalist years (George Washington onward) to modern times, the federal government assumed both the responsibility and the management of the US resources as the political winds found necessary. To what degree, has only grown over time in spurts and fits.

s5300 5y ago

Religious groups typically look after their own. Take care of the poor, needy, and disabled. For quite a long time, most US states were essentially religious areas/boundaries, which is why much of New England is seen as quite puritanical to this day. Go read about the history of Mormons and Utah. The reason the surrounding borders are so weird is because the U.S. gov essentially tried to thwart a larger land grab by the LDS https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Deseret https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Deseret Their tenants were largely about taking care of each other. So, in short - there were a lot of welfare states, mostly segregated by religion. As time went on, they mostly morphed into an encompassing welfare state. Do you disagree? HN is definitely a tough crowd when it comes to ideas of helping the less fortunate it seems. Hopefully your future physical therapists won't charge too much when your ruined backs and wrists are hurting, despite the fact capitalism says "why shouldn't they reap your pains for all they're worth"

throwawaylinux 5y ago
I don't know, you still haven't provided me with your definition of "welfare state" that has applied to the USA. Certain groups choosing to take care of their members is not a welfare state so I'm not too sure what you're getting at there.
google234123 5y ago
You've definitely not convinced me that the US was founded as a welfare state.
samhwr 5y ago
> Their tenants were largely about taking care of each other. For what it’s worth, you almost certainly mean ‘tenets’. I don’t know why, but this malapropism has become increasingly common. Tenants are people who rent a property.
- Tommah 5y ago
  > I don’t know why Both words come from the Latin tenere, to hold. A tenant is someone who holds a lease. A tenet is a belief that is held.
  - samhwr 5y ago
    Yeah, after wasting eight years of my life doing Latin at school I understand the basic etymology, but I’m confused because the English meanings aren’t very close. Your careful phrasing manages to get the word ‘hold’ into both of them, but ‘someone who holds a lease’ isn’t a very natural-sounding definition of ‘tenant’, and the notion that most people who make this mistake are familiar with the paradigm of teneo feels rather tenuous (plus ‘tenant’ noticeably isn’t a Latin ending, it’s apparently Old French, though transitively descended from teneo). You don’t think it’s more likely, if anything, to be that they just sound similar?

krrrh 5y ago

> may one ask what definition of "welfare state" has applied to the USA since its founding? I’m going to assume that this is a serious question and try to quickly answer it in good faith. A quick search finds these figures [0] from the Congressional Research Service. “CRS identified 83 overlapping federal welfare programs that together represented the single largest budget item in 2011—more than the nation spends on Social Security, Medicare, or national defense. The total amount spent on these 80-plus federal welfare programs amounts to roughly $1.03 trillion. Importantly, these figures solely refer to means-tested welfare benefits. They exclude entitlement programs to which people contribute (e.g., Social Security and Medicare).” Social Security and Medicare are massive entitlements beyond welfare spending that are all but sacrosanct in US politics, and that’s just federal spending. Looking at total social spending as a share of GDP [1], the US is in line with Australia and Canada at 2016 numbers. The difference between the US at 19% and the Netherlands or Japan at 22.5% or Germany at 25% is one of degree, not of kind. This is especially true when you consider that in absolute terms the difference is even smaller since the US has considerably higher GDP/capita than those countries. [0] https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/CRS%20Report%20-%20Welfare%20Spending%20The%20Largest%20Item%20In%20The%20Federal%20Budget.pdf https://www.budget.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/CRS%20Report%20-... [1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/social-spending-oecd-longrun https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/social-spending-oecd-long...

throwawaylinux 5y ago
> I’m going to assume that this is a serious question and try to quickly answer it in good faith. It is a serious question and I was hoping for something closer to the late 1700s vintage. I'm well aware there is a vast welfare system in place today.
- krrrh 5y ago
  Sorry I misread thinking you meant since it’s founding (until now), when has it been a welfare state. I was caught in a weak moment I guess.
  - samhwr 5y ago

Supermancho 5y ago

https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/events/1700s/ https://socialwelfare.library.vcu.edu/events/1700s/ I'm sure there's plenty. From the Federalist years (George Washington onward) to modern times, the federal government assumed both the responsibility and the management of the US resources as the political winds found necessary. To what degree, has only grown over time in spurts and fits.