38 ms·

Transforming OpenStreetMap into thick roads and intersections

417 points by dabreegster 5y ago

dabreegster 5y ago
A/B Street is an open-source traffic simulator that lets you edit roads and intersections, based on OpenStreetMap data. But to even do that, first we have to geometrically represent the transportation network in great detail. This is a second deep-dive into how things work.
- dabreegster 5y ago
  And in case you're interested how the traffic simulation part works in detail, but missed yesterday's post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28553654 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28553654
aresant 5y ago
Years back as OSM was fading and the v1.0 of mapbox started rolling out my pedestrian view of the space was that we were seeing the endgame unfold It's insane to see the levels of depth still to plunge - this is incredible documentation and a very cool project PS - I'd upvote twice if I could for incorporate of cthulhu mythos!
- dabreegster 5y ago
  Just this morning I came across new work from the Berlin OSM community: https://supaplexosm.github.io/strassenraumkarte-neukoelln/?map=micromap#20/52.49555/13.42073 https://supaplexosm.github.io/strassenraumkarte-neukoelln/?m... The end-game isn't in sight. We (data consumers of OSM) are just getting started.
  - Freak_NL 5y ago
    Supaplex did supplement their map with open data from the municipality though for the street outlines as far as I understand (I've asked), so it's not 100% OpenStreetMap data used there. Totally awesome and inspiring nonetheless though.
    - dabreegster 5y ago
      Right, from https://supaplexosm.github.io/strassenraumkarte-neukoelln/posts/2021-07-18-strassenraumkarte https://supaplexosm.github.io/strassenraumkarte-neukoelln/po... (translation https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://supaplexosm.github.io/strassenraumkarte-neukoelln/posts/2021-07-18-strassenraumkarte https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https...), there was an extra curb data-set used. I've actually found a few of these (https://a-b-street.github.io/docs/tech/map/geometry/index.html#other-data-sources https://a-b-street.github.io/docs/tech/map/geometry/index.ht...), so the approach is maybe repeatable. Regardless, the design choices and color scheme are something I would love to adapt.
    - RicoElectrico 5y ago
      You can definitely map curbs in OSM if you have high resolution imagery: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:area:highway https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:area:highway Do not expect however mainstream data consumers to support it ;)
  - nkoren 5y ago
    That is gorgeous! I want it.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  What to you mean, "OSM was fading"? When?
  - reportingsjr 5y ago
    I'm also curious about this. If you look at the number of users, number of edits, etc then openstreetmap looks like it is on a rocket trajectory. More and more corporations are putting significant amounts of energy towards improving openstreetmap as well, drastically improving overall quality.
    - WilTimSon 5y ago
      It's scary to think such a great project could have perished at some point in its infancy. It's not perfect yet but it's an incredible resource and alternative to GMaps.
toomuchtodo 5y ago
This is the coolest project I've seen in a long time. I cannot wait to see how this evolves and scales up.
takk309 5y ago
I am a professional traffic engineer and I build micro-simulation models for most of the projects I am involved with. I can say that compared to software that is used in industry (PTV Vissim, PTV Vistro, and Trafficware Synchro) it looks like A/B is a reasonable toy model that can get pretty close to the real thing. I think it is great that software exists at a level for individuals without huge budgets to be able to build and play around with traffic networks. Automating the intersection setup goes a long way toward this type of tool being accessible to the lay person. All that being said, I think the limitations of any model are important to understand when interpreting the outputs. I can take any model and make traffic flow or decrease the delay per vehicle, that doesn't mean my results are realistic. Keep up the work, this is an awesome tool and I hope it can get to the point where it can easily help inform people about traffic design and simulation.
- anigbrowl 5y ago
  What kinds of feedback does your profession care about? I am constantly frustrated as a pedestrian with the traffic flow and signal timing problems in my area but I feel like it's pointless to submit a complaint to my local municipality because my anecdotal data points will probably be disregarded. I'm not very good at nor patient for trying to do neighborhood people organization and go around in circles with City Hall for 5 years (as has been the case with other neighborhood things like park use etc. that I have previously been involved in). But I am tried of losing about 5-6 hours a year to excess wait times at intersections despite trying to avoid the slowest crossings.
  - SECProto 5y ago
    I've lived a few different places, also working in transportation engineering. I personally care a great deal about accessibility, and would much rather delay cars slightly than pedestrians (for numerous reasons). For example, when reviewing traffic control plans, etc, I always make comments or suggest changes along those lines. But ultimately, it comes down to what the municipality wants to prioritize - unless there are safety issues, it's hard to do more than suggest and push for something better. If you want to make a difference, making comments (about ongoing projects, particularly) will tend to have more impact. For something more systemic (like light cycles deprioritizing pedestrians), I found the best solution was to move to a better city. If that's not a solution for you :) then another option you might want to consider is having a meeting with your municipal (or even higher) level elected representative - invite them for a walkthrough of a more problematic space, and try to explain the issues and possible solutions as calmly/rationally as possible. And without attacking car culture directly, as that tends to get people defensive.
modeless 5y ago
You can play it right in your browser: http://play.abstreet.org/0.2.58/abstreet.html http://play.abstreet.org/0.2.58/abstreet.html What a cool project!
Dylan16807 5y ago
> Highway on/off ramps https://a-b-street.github.io/docs/tech/map/geometry/index.html#highway-onoff-ramps https://a-b-street.github.io/docs/tech/map/geometry/index.ht... It's hard to say which is better here, to be honest. A giant blob of gray is less helpful than showing some lanes, but the original version is much closer to the actual shape: https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6564275,-122.3223112,203m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6564275,-122.3223112,203m/da... Though apparently even google can't handle this intersection. Where did the middle layer of road go, google? https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6556467,-122.3191587,69a,35y,278.08h,79.19t/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6556467,-122.3191587,69a,35y...
- dabreegster 5y ago
  Hmm, I guess I never checked satellite for that example. Part of the motivation there was improving the simulation. While vehicles are moving through the intersection, they grab a lock and prevent conflicting movements. A huge intersection takes longer to cross and was causing unrealistic backups here. But that was only because of the wacky lane-changing model (can only change between those 4 northbound lanes in an intersection, where conflicts are modeled) and poor lane placement at the time. Some of that's been fixed, worth revisiting the shape.
db48x 5y ago
Very cool. Unfortunately it looks like I managed to put it into an infinite loop in the tutorial. Or possibly I just didn’t wait long enough after saving my changes…
- dabreegster 5y ago
  I haven't given any love to the poor tutorial mode in ages, so I'm not surprised you found a bug. Please file an issue (https://github.com/dabreegster/abstreet/issues https://github.com/dabreegster/abstreet/issues) and describe how to reproduce the problem. If you can open the browser developer console (Ctrl+shift+I in firefox), often the last part will be really helpful.
02020202 5y ago
brings back memories. i was trying to make self-hosted maps(so you would not have to pay the absurd amounts of money for google or other map providers if you had bigger project. it worked very well but the OSM data, the system of tags, was such a mess that it was just not worth it. this guy obviously has a lot of time to waste. gl&hf.

417 points by dabreegster 5y ago

A/B Street is an open-source traffic simulator that lets you edit roads and intersections, based on OpenStreetMap data. But to even do that, first we have to geometrically represent the transportation network in great detail. This is a second deep-dive into how things work.

dabreegster 5y ago
And in case you're interested how the traffic simulation part works in detail, but missed yesterday's post: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28553654 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28553654

aresant 5y ago

Years back as OSM was fading and the v1.0 of mapbox started rolling out my pedestrian view of the space was that we were seeing the endgame unfold It's insane to see the levels of depth still to plunge - this is incredible documentation and a very cool project PS - I'd upvote twice if I could for incorporate of cthulhu mythos!

dabreegster 5y ago
Just this morning I came across new work from the Berlin OSM community: https://supaplexosm.github.io/strassenraumkarte-neukoelln/?map=micromap#20/52.49555/13.42073 https://supaplexosm.github.io/strassenraumkarte-neukoelln/?m... The end-game isn't in sight. We (data consumers of OSM) are just getting started.
- Freak_NL 5y ago
  Supaplex did supplement their map with open data from the municipality though for the street outlines as far as I understand (I've asked), so it's not 100% OpenStreetMap data used there. Totally awesome and inspiring nonetheless though.
  - dabreegster 5y ago
    Right, from https://supaplexosm.github.io/strassenraumkarte-neukoelln/posts/2021-07-18-strassenraumkarte https://supaplexosm.github.io/strassenraumkarte-neukoelln/po... (translation https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://supaplexosm.github.io/strassenraumkarte-neukoelln/posts/2021-07-18-strassenraumkarte https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https...), there was an extra curb data-set used. I've actually found a few of these (https://a-b-street.github.io/docs/tech/map/geometry/index.html#other-data-sources https://a-b-street.github.io/docs/tech/map/geometry/index.ht...), so the approach is maybe repeatable. Regardless, the design choices and color scheme are something I would love to adapt.
  - RicoElectrico 5y ago
    You can definitely map curbs in OSM if you have high resolution imagery: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:area:highway https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:area:highway Do not expect however mainstream data consumers to support it ;)
- nkoren 5y ago
  That is gorgeous! I want it.
Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
What to you mean, "OSM was fading"? When?
- reportingsjr 5y ago
  I'm also curious about this. If you look at the number of users, number of edits, etc then openstreetmap looks like it is on a rocket trajectory. More and more corporations are putting significant amounts of energy towards improving openstreetmap as well, drastically improving overall quality.
  - WilTimSon 5y ago
    It's scary to think such a great project could have perished at some point in its infancy. It's not perfect yet but it's an incredible resource and alternative to GMaps.

toomuchtodo 5y ago

This is the coolest project I've seen in a long time. I cannot wait to see how this evolves and scales up.

takk309 5y ago

I am a professional traffic engineer and I build micro-simulation models for most of the projects I am involved with. I can say that compared to software that is used in industry (PTV Vissim, PTV Vistro, and Trafficware Synchro) it looks like A/B is a reasonable toy model that can get pretty close to the real thing. I think it is great that software exists at a level for individuals without huge budgets to be able to build and play around with traffic networks. Automating the intersection setup goes a long way toward this type of tool being accessible to the lay person. All that being said, I think the limitations of any model are important to understand when interpreting the outputs. I can take any model and make traffic flow or decrease the delay per vehicle, that doesn't mean my results are realistic. Keep up the work, this is an awesome tool and I hope it can get to the point where it can easily help inform people about traffic design and simulation.

anigbrowl 5y ago
What kinds of feedback does your profession care about? I am constantly frustrated as a pedestrian with the traffic flow and signal timing problems in my area but I feel like it's pointless to submit a complaint to my local municipality because my anecdotal data points will probably be disregarded. I'm not very good at nor patient for trying to do neighborhood people organization and go around in circles with City Hall for 5 years (as has been the case with other neighborhood things like park use etc. that I have previously been involved in). But I am tried of losing about 5-6 hours a year to excess wait times at intersections despite trying to avoid the slowest crossings.
- SECProto 5y ago
  I've lived a few different places, also working in transportation engineering. I personally care a great deal about accessibility, and would much rather delay cars slightly than pedestrians (for numerous reasons). For example, when reviewing traffic control plans, etc, I always make comments or suggest changes along those lines. But ultimately, it comes down to what the municipality wants to prioritize - unless there are safety issues, it's hard to do more than suggest and push for something better. If you want to make a difference, making comments (about ongoing projects, particularly) will tend to have more impact. For something more systemic (like light cycles deprioritizing pedestrians), I found the best solution was to move to a better city. If that's not a solution for you :) then another option you might want to consider is having a meeting with your municipal (or even higher) level elected representative - invite them for a walkthrough of a more problematic space, and try to explain the issues and possible solutions as calmly/rationally as possible. And without attacking car culture directly, as that tends to get people defensive.

modeless 5y ago

You can play it right in your browser: http://play.abstreet.org/0.2.58/abstreet.html http://play.abstreet.org/0.2.58/abstreet.html What a cool project!

Dylan16807 5y ago

> Highway on/off ramps https://a-b-street.github.io/docs/tech/map/geometry/index.html#highway-onoff-ramps https://a-b-street.github.io/docs/tech/map/geometry/index.ht... It's hard to say which is better here, to be honest. A giant blob of gray is less helpful than showing some lanes, but the original version is much closer to the actual shape: https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6564275,-122.3223112,203m/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6564275,-122.3223112,203m/da... Though apparently even google can't handle this intersection. Where did the middle layer of road go, google? https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6556467,-122.3191587,69a,35y,278.08h,79.19t/data=!3m1!1e3 https://www.google.com/maps/@47.6556467,-122.3191587,69a,35y...

dabreegster 5y ago
Hmm, I guess I never checked satellite for that example. Part of the motivation there was improving the simulation. While vehicles are moving through the intersection, they grab a lock and prevent conflicting movements. A huge intersection takes longer to cross and was causing unrealistic backups here. But that was only because of the wacky lane-changing model (can only change between those 4 northbound lanes in an intersection, where conflicts are modeled) and poor lane placement at the time. Some of that's been fixed, worth revisiting the shape.

db48x 5y ago

Very cool. Unfortunately it looks like I managed to put it into an infinite loop in the tutorial. Or possibly I just didn’t wait long enough after saving my changes…

dabreegster 5y ago
I haven't given any love to the poor tutorial mode in ages, so I'm not surprised you found a bug. Please file an issue (https://github.com/dabreegster/abstreet/issues https://github.com/dabreegster/abstreet/issues) and describe how to reproduce the problem. If you can open the browser developer console (Ctrl+shift+I in firefox), often the last part will be really helpful.

02020202 5y ago

brings back memories. i was trying to make self-hosted maps(so you would not have to pay the absurd amounts of money for google or other map providers if you had bigger project. it worked very well but the OSM data, the system of tags, was such a mess that it was just not worth it. this guy obviously has a lot of time to waste. gl&hf.