5 ms·

> What makes you think you know better what is good for the Russian people and the opposition groups than Russians and the opposition groups themselves? Becaus

> What makes you think you know better what is good for the Russian people and the opposition groups than Russians and the opposition groups themselves? Because if regime's economy collapses, the regime will collapse sooner.

Dah00n 5y ago
And then we likely have a pure dictatorship with the worlds second biggest nuclear arsenal and thousands of Russians will likely die from things like starvation and being killed by the new regime (or the old while it dies). No-one wins by killing off a regime. That is "let's bomb this country into democracy" thinking.
- varjag 5y ago
  It is a pure dictatorship for a while now.
simonh 5y ago
Collapsing economies simply make autocrats double down even harder on autocracy. North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, Zimbabwe. There are numerous examples of this. It simply multiplies the misery.
- baybal2 5y ago
  Why is this even relevant? You always have to keep heads of your enemies down. That's basic common sense. Dictatorships are the enemies of the Free World. Or, do you think they are friends, perhaps? They are your enemies, and you keep their economies ruined.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    -1 Point for faiure to distinguish between the mobsters in charge and general population -1 point for dillusional idea that cuba is an enemy or a threat to the us or anyone fir that matter -1 point fir lack of self-reflection on how free we are becoming -1 point for cruelty
    - baybal2 5y ago
      I am not cruel, I am a follower of strong humanist beliefs. Life in shit is worse than death, way worse. I will at least give people a choice of two. If you force people to live in shit, just so they can live, you are cruel. I am very reflective. I see the West turning into a serial facilitator of rogue, and fascist regimes for some "special relationships." If they deserve fire for that, I think they really should. It's been 20 years since 9/11, and USA is still sucking up to the Saudi Regime for really nothing of benefit — this is what I will call a real lack of self-reflection. Cuba is not a threat, but it very much will be if you leave its neck out of your hands for a second. The Cuban state is the biggest threat to Cuban people. Thank them for good healthcare, but then smack them good for near starving their people despite Cuba being chock full of agricultural land for a country of 10M, inventing silly excuses for it, and jailing anybody pointing a finger on that. I see the mob in charge, very much see. I personally knew people who lost all their livelihood to having their business robbed, and seized. The general population don't want you, the West to keep feeding Putin's bottomless mouth. They are not idiots. They see every gram of food the West gives the regime, the regime uses to grow bigger, and stronger, and then bite, and rob them even more.
  - simonh 5y ago
    Actually that's a reasonable point, sure. My counter is that it should be proportionate. North Korea? Absolutely, they're the absolute bottom of the barrel. Full economic sanctions are reasonable, I think we both agree. China and Russia are not like North Korea though. Citizens generally enjoy a considerable degree of freedom of movement, economic freedoms and even rights to travel abroad. To the extent that these rights are curtailed or refused we should apply increasing degrees of pressure. In fact I think we don't apply enough pressure, particularly to China. There's a lot more we could do. What we should do is emphasise that crimes such as the oppression of the Uighurs should have consequences, and we're not doing that enough right now. I'm particularly concerned about China's application to join the Asia-Pacific trade pact, the CPTPP. The association was founded by the US in order to form a united front against China, but the US pulled out in 2017. So we now face a real possibility a trade pact intended to contain China will end up helping China contain US economic influence in the region. Nice one. Absolute bans and boycotts are simply not appropriate though, they would disproportionately hurt ordinary Chinese, including those under the worst oppression and would help China promote a nationalistic us versus them attitude. It would also remove any ability to apply increasing pressure to any further oppressive moves because we'd have no pressure left to apply. So I fully agree with the principle, you're quit right these regimes are our enemy, but not the all-or-nothing implementation.
ako 5y ago
Regime collapse doesn't mean something better will replace it. Russia collapsed end of the 80s, but what replaced it leaves a lot to be desired...
- baybal2 5y ago
  And it did, because the West left half way, and never backed Yelzin at finally dismantling the system. It was critical. And after he had his second stroke, he was a walking vegetable basically, and the opportunity was lost. You are very demoralised.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Well, yes. But for Russia's former satellite states things definitely improved.
  - nzmsv 5y ago
    I think you cherry-picked here. You are thinking about the Baltics and forgetting about places like Uzbekistan (now broke) and Kazakhstan (rich but authoritarian). And even if you say these are former republics rather than satellites, think of the mess that is Serbia. The fall of the USSR may have been overall a good thing and even inevitable, as with any huge disruption it was not an unequivocal good thing for every single person.
    - baybal2 5y ago
      > huge disruption it was not an unequivocal good thing for every single person. I think even in the Central Asian North Korea — Uzbekistan, a person now lives more freely, and richer than the wealthiest USSR citizens did.
      - sannysanoff 5y ago
        Have you ever googled, bro? >> After the collapse of the USSR, economic reforms were not fully implemented in Uzbekistan, conditions for the development of medium and small businesses were not created, corruption took root, and unemployment increased. Many wonder: if it is better now than in the past, why have about two to five million Uzbek citizens left their country in search of work? via bbs.com (!!!) https://www.bbc.com/russian/international/2014/10/141015_uzbekistan_independence_soviet_past https://www.bbc.com/russian/international/2014/10/141015_uzb... .. and where do you think they migrated to, from their country that is on its way to Middle Ages? To Putin's dark regime's Russia, nowhere else, working there as construction and road workers etc. You've got a good chance to compare your reality with real reality, my friend.

Dah00n 5y ago

And then we likely have a pure dictatorship with the worlds second biggest nuclear arsenal and thousands of Russians will likely die from things like starvation and being killed by the new regime (or the old while it dies). No-one wins by killing off a regime. That is "let's bomb this country into democracy" thinking.

varjag 5y ago
It is a pure dictatorship for a while now.

simonh 5y ago

Collapsing economies simply make autocrats double down even harder on autocracy. North Korea, Venezuela, Cuba, Zimbabwe. There are numerous examples of this. It simply multiplies the misery.

baybal2 5y ago
Why is this even relevant? You always have to keep heads of your enemies down. That's basic common sense. Dictatorships are the enemies of the Free World. Or, do you think they are friends, perhaps? They are your enemies, and you keep their economies ruined.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  -1 Point for faiure to distinguish between the mobsters in charge and general population -1 point for dillusional idea that cuba is an enemy or a threat to the us or anyone fir that matter -1 point fir lack of self-reflection on how free we are becoming -1 point for cruelty
  - baybal2 5y ago
    I am not cruel, I am a follower of strong humanist beliefs. Life in shit is worse than death, way worse. I will at least give people a choice of two. If you force people to live in shit, just so they can live, you are cruel. I am very reflective. I see the West turning into a serial facilitator of rogue, and fascist regimes for some "special relationships." If they deserve fire for that, I think they really should. It's been 20 years since 9/11, and USA is still sucking up to the Saudi Regime for really nothing of benefit — this is what I will call a real lack of self-reflection. Cuba is not a threat, but it very much will be if you leave its neck out of your hands for a second. The Cuban state is the biggest threat to Cuban people. Thank them for good healthcare, but then smack them good for near starving their people despite Cuba being chock full of agricultural land for a country of 10M, inventing silly excuses for it, and jailing anybody pointing a finger on that. I see the mob in charge, very much see. I personally knew people who lost all their livelihood to having their business robbed, and seized. The general population don't want you, the West to keep feeding Putin's bottomless mouth. They are not idiots. They see every gram of food the West gives the regime, the regime uses to grow bigger, and stronger, and then bite, and rob them even more.
- simonh 5y ago
  Actually that's a reasonable point, sure. My counter is that it should be proportionate. North Korea? Absolutely, they're the absolute bottom of the barrel. Full economic sanctions are reasonable, I think we both agree. China and Russia are not like North Korea though. Citizens generally enjoy a considerable degree of freedom of movement, economic freedoms and even rights to travel abroad. To the extent that these rights are curtailed or refused we should apply increasing degrees of pressure. In fact I think we don't apply enough pressure, particularly to China. There's a lot more we could do. What we should do is emphasise that crimes such as the oppression of the Uighurs should have consequences, and we're not doing that enough right now. I'm particularly concerned about China's application to join the Asia-Pacific trade pact, the CPTPP. The association was founded by the US in order to form a united front against China, but the US pulled out in 2017. So we now face a real possibility a trade pact intended to contain China will end up helping China contain US economic influence in the region. Nice one. Absolute bans and boycotts are simply not appropriate though, they would disproportionately hurt ordinary Chinese, including those under the worst oppression and would help China promote a nationalistic us versus them attitude. It would also remove any ability to apply increasing pressure to any further oppressive moves because we'd have no pressure left to apply. So I fully agree with the principle, you're quit right these regimes are our enemy, but not the all-or-nothing implementation.

ako 5y ago

Regime collapse doesn't mean something better will replace it. Russia collapsed end of the 80s, but what replaced it leaves a lot to be desired...

baybal2 5y ago
And it did, because the West left half way, and never backed Yelzin at finally dismantling the system. It was critical. And after he had his second stroke, he was a walking vegetable basically, and the opportunity was lost. You are very demoralised.
jacquesm 5y ago
Well, yes. But for Russia's former satellite states things definitely improved.
- nzmsv 5y ago
  I think you cherry-picked here. You are thinking about the Baltics and forgetting about places like Uzbekistan (now broke) and Kazakhstan (rich but authoritarian). And even if you say these are former republics rather than satellites, think of the mess that is Serbia. The fall of the USSR may have been overall a good thing and even inevitable, as with any huge disruption it was not an unequivocal good thing for every single person.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    > huge disruption it was not an unequivocal good thing for every single person. I think even in the Central Asian North Korea — Uzbekistan, a person now lives more freely, and richer than the wealthiest USSR citizens did.
    - sannysanoff 5y ago
      Have you ever googled, bro? >> After the collapse of the USSR, economic reforms were not fully implemented in Uzbekistan, conditions for the development of medium and small businesses were not created, corruption took root, and unemployment increased. Many wonder: if it is better now than in the past, why have about two to five million Uzbek citizens left their country in search of work? via bbs.com (!!!) https://www.bbc.com/russian/international/2014/10/141015_uzbekistan_independence_soviet_past https://www.bbc.com/russian/international/2014/10/141015_uzb... .. and where do you think they migrated to, from their country that is on its way to Middle Ages? To Putin's dark regime's Russia, nowhere else, working there as construction and road workers etc. You've got a good chance to compare your reality with real reality, my friend.