5 ms·

> made possible through the (lack of) gun ownership regulation. The US has plenty of gun ownership regulation. Criminals choose not to follow that though.

vlovich123 5y ago
Lackadaisical enforcement in the US
- OrvalWintermute 5y ago
  Violent gun crimes are felonies with the exception of the victimless I tried to carry my handgun through the airport type of crimes. Do you have evidence otherwise?
  - vlovich123 5y ago
    I meant more than just criminal prosecution. For example, federal gun control checks are prohibited from being automated and there’s a fixed time limit the FBI needs to respond within or the gun can be sold. Effectively this neuters federal background checks. Similarly, there’s ways of skirting even that trivial thing through private sale and firearm shows. The entire system is a farce and I’m surprised there’s anyone who thinks it’s not. I would have though pro gun advocates would at least know enough to acknowledge the Swiss cheese nature of the systems in place around gun ownership in America.
    - OrvalWintermute 5y ago
      > federal gun control checks are prohibited from being automated There is an automated system behind it. > Effectively this neuters federal background checks That is incorrect. https://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/gun-background-check-nics-guide/ https://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/gun-background-check-nics-g... As the article mentions, there are people that slip through the cracks, but the foremost problem around keeping weapons out of the wrong hands has little to do with the FBI.
- zepto 5y ago
  It’s not lackadaisical.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    That depends on your definition. Only 3% of federal firearm offenses are prosecuted. So at that level, I would say it is lackadaisical.
    - zepto 5y ago
      It depends what you mean by a firearm ‘offense’. For example, there are a large number of guns owned by people of color who didn’t buy them legally, not because they couldn’t, but because they either didn’t know they needed to, or they didn’t trust the legal route. That’s the kind of thing your 3% number applies to. The only way to ‘prosecute’ those offenses would be to lock up a lot of otherwise law abiding black men who are only criminals on paper because of racist gun control laws. It’s important to understand this context before using words like ‘lackadaisical’. If you mean things like actual violence or conspiracies to traffic firearms, these are prosecuted vigorously and the 3% figure is bullshit in that context. I’m guessing you weren’t aware of the detail behind this figure.
      - giantg2 5y ago
        "If you mean things like actual violence or conspiracies to traffic firearms, these are prosecuted vigorously and the 3% figure is bullshit in that context." I'd love to see your data then. My data shows a different picture. The majority of prosecutions within that 3% are possession by a felon. The next most common are ones involving a violent crime or drug offense, and possession by a person in the United states illegally. The reason prosecution is so low and doesn't include more violent offenders is because the federal government is lackadaisical and decides not to prosecute them. They instead allow the states to prosecute under state law. Even if the states prosecute under their own laws, the feds still can prosecute under the federal law if they wanted to. Around 10k federal prosecution out of over 400k occurrence of violent crime involving a firearm. That's a terrible percentage in my mind. Links at bottom "there are a large number of guns owned by people of color who didn’t buy them legally, not because they couldn’t, but because they either didn’t know they needed to, or they didn’t trust the legal route." You seem to imply that they are not prohibited since they could buy them "legally". What exactly do you mean by buying them "illegally"? Do you have any data on this "large number" of minorities that bought guns illegally and how that compares to other groups? I'd also like to hear how you believe the federal laws are racist and which ones in particular. I know there are some state laws that have racist roots. I can even agree that the structure around loss of rights should be reexamined, but isnt wholly racist (non-violent felonies should be excluded, and some recent case law is starting to move this). https://trac.syr.edu/tracreports/crim/492/ https://trac.syr.edu/tracreports/crim/492/ https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/gun-violence-america https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/gun-violence-america
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
The USA also has plenty of gun production capacity. Unless you really believe 25% of Americans own 20 guns each, there is a lot of winking and nudging that guns are going south for drugs coming north.
- philwelch 5y ago
  > Unless you really believe 25% of Americans own 20 guns each On average, that's entirely believable. I think the vast majority of those people own 4-10 guns, but there are enough people who own hundreds of guns to make the mean a lot higher. In fact this is a classic example of a situation where mean can be significantly higher than median.
- grogenaut 5y ago
  Actually that's not far off. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/15/the-gun-numbers-just-3-of-american-adults-own-a-collective-133m-firearms https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/15/the-gun-numb... 3% of americans own near half of the guns. Generally if you're going to own guns you're going to own several, just like you likely own more than one screwdriver. Small gauge shotguns for small birds, larger for larger birds, smooth bore for deer depending on state. Rifles there will be several, same for pistols. With rifles and pistols you generally practice with small caliber rounds like 22 as it's much much cheaper ($.02 / rnd vs $2), and really more pleasant (quiet, doesn't kick) than hunting rounds. Everyone I know who has a gun has at least 4. My friend's grandfather owns 73. In many areas that's an unremarkable number, especially for older shotguns where you didn't have interchangeable chokes.
  - OrvalWintermute 5y ago
    > Rifles there will be several, same for pistols. With rifles and pistols you generally practice with small caliber rounds like 22 as it's much much cheaper ($.02 / rnd vs $2), and really more pleasant (quiet, doesn't kick) than hunting rounds. Most of my experience, thanks to the US taxpayer to whom I am permanently indebted, is with an M60, an M240, and an M249. I would like my wife, and my daughters to have skill with weapons too, so I was thinking about an HK417 for myself, and then getting an HK416 clone chambered in .22LR for practice. It takes a healthy respect, and practiced expertise in weapons to build competency, and I think that relates to a number of rounds fired. Hopefully, small caliber for cost savings!

vlovich123 5y ago

Lackadaisical enforcement in the US

OrvalWintermute 5y ago
Violent gun crimes are felonies with the exception of the victimless I tried to carry my handgun through the airport type of crimes. Do you have evidence otherwise?
- vlovich123 5y ago
  I meant more than just criminal prosecution. For example, federal gun control checks are prohibited from being automated and there’s a fixed time limit the FBI needs to respond within or the gun can be sold. Effectively this neuters federal background checks. Similarly, there’s ways of skirting even that trivial thing through private sale and firearm shows. The entire system is a farce and I’m surprised there’s anyone who thinks it’s not. I would have though pro gun advocates would at least know enough to acknowledge the Swiss cheese nature of the systems in place around gun ownership in America.
  - OrvalWintermute 5y ago
    > federal gun control checks are prohibited from being automated There is an automated system behind it. > Effectively this neuters federal background checks That is incorrect. https://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/gun-background-check-nics-guide/ https://www.thetrace.org/2015/07/gun-background-check-nics-g... As the article mentions, there are people that slip through the cracks, but the foremost problem around keeping weapons out of the wrong hands has little to do with the FBI.
zepto 5y ago
It’s not lackadaisical.
- giantg2 5y ago
  That depends on your definition. Only 3% of federal firearm offenses are prosecuted. So at that level, I would say it is lackadaisical.
  - zepto 5y ago
    It depends what you mean by a firearm ‘offense’. For example, there are a large number of guns owned by people of color who didn’t buy them legally, not because they couldn’t, but because they either didn’t know they needed to, or they didn’t trust the legal route. That’s the kind of thing your 3% number applies to. The only way to ‘prosecute’ those offenses would be to lock up a lot of otherwise law abiding black men who are only criminals on paper because of racist gun control laws. It’s important to understand this context before using words like ‘lackadaisical’. If you mean things like actual violence or conspiracies to traffic firearms, these are prosecuted vigorously and the 3% figure is bullshit in that context. I’m guessing you weren’t aware of the detail behind this figure.
    - giantg2 5y ago
      "If you mean things like actual violence or conspiracies to traffic firearms, these are prosecuted vigorously and the 3% figure is bullshit in that context." I'd love to see your data then. My data shows a different picture. The majority of prosecutions within that 3% are possession by a felon. The next most common are ones involving a violent crime or drug offense, and possession by a person in the United states illegally. The reason prosecution is so low and doesn't include more violent offenders is because the federal government is lackadaisical and decides not to prosecute them. They instead allow the states to prosecute under state law. Even if the states prosecute under their own laws, the feds still can prosecute under the federal law if they wanted to. Around 10k federal prosecution out of over 400k occurrence of violent crime involving a firearm. That's a terrible percentage in my mind. Links at bottom "there are a large number of guns owned by people of color who didn’t buy them legally, not because they couldn’t, but because they either didn’t know they needed to, or they didn’t trust the legal route." You seem to imply that they are not prohibited since they could buy them "legally". What exactly do you mean by buying them "illegally"? Do you have any data on this "large number" of minorities that bought guns illegally and how that compares to other groups? I'd also like to hear how you believe the federal laws are racist and which ones in particular. I know there are some state laws that have racist roots. I can even agree that the structure around loss of rights should be reexamined, but isnt wholly racist (non-violent felonies should be excluded, and some recent case law is starting to move this). https://trac.syr.edu/tracreports/crim/492/ https://trac.syr.edu/tracreports/crim/492/ https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/gun-violence-america https://nij.ojp.gov/topics/articles/gun-violence-america

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

The USA also has plenty of gun production capacity. Unless you really believe 25% of Americans own 20 guns each, there is a lot of winking and nudging that guns are going south for drugs coming north.

philwelch 5y ago
> Unless you really believe 25% of Americans own 20 guns each On average, that's entirely believable. I think the vast majority of those people own 4-10 guns, but there are enough people who own hundreds of guns to make the mean a lot higher. In fact this is a classic example of a situation where mean can be significantly higher than median.
grogenaut 5y ago
Actually that's not far off. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/15/the-gun-numbers-just-3-of-american-adults-own-a-collective-133m-firearms https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/nov/15/the-gun-numb... 3% of americans own near half of the guns. Generally if you're going to own guns you're going to own several, just like you likely own more than one screwdriver. Small gauge shotguns for small birds, larger for larger birds, smooth bore for deer depending on state. Rifles there will be several, same for pistols. With rifles and pistols you generally practice with small caliber rounds like 22 as it's much much cheaper ($.02 / rnd vs $2), and really more pleasant (quiet, doesn't kick) than hunting rounds. Everyone I know who has a gun has at least 4. My friend's grandfather owns 73. In many areas that's an unremarkable number, especially for older shotguns where you didn't have interchangeable chokes.
- OrvalWintermute 5y ago
  > Rifles there will be several, same for pistols. With rifles and pistols you generally practice with small caliber rounds like 22 as it's much much cheaper ($.02 / rnd vs $2), and really more pleasant (quiet, doesn't kick) than hunting rounds. Most of my experience, thanks to the US taxpayer to whom I am permanently indebted, is with an M60, an M240, and an M249. I would like my wife, and my daughters to have skill with weapons too, so I was thinking about an HK417 for myself, and then getting an HK416 clone chambered in .22LR for practice. It takes a healthy respect, and practiced expertise in weapons to build competency, and I think that relates to a number of rounds fired. Hopefully, small caliber for cost savings!