4 ms·

The personal safety issue is being covered a lot here, but I think some people are missing something else; guns are a lot of fun. In an era where bars and movie

The personal safety issue is being covered a lot here, but I think some people are missing something else; guns are a lot of fun. In an era where bars and movie theaters were closed due to pandemic, you could safety go to an outside range and ring steel instead. This is particularly relevant if you consider the ongoing shortage in 22lr, a cartridge which is woefully underpowered for self defense, but ideal for killing soda cans and learning the basics of marksmanship.

_carbyau_ 5y ago
I largely agree with your comment. I am curious about the 22lr being "woefully underpowered for self defense" bit though. I mean, it will put holes into peoples bodies. And I thought the idea was self defense and keeping peoples heads down/awayFromYou. I know it won't put big holes in doors/tables etc. I guess I haven't really considered what the real requirements are for self defense in a country where so many people have gun. So why is 22lr not enough?
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  The standard of a defensive caliber is that it needs to be capable of immediately halting an attacker with the kinds of shots a scared defendant can pull off[0]. Not killing them immediately or eventually, but halting the attack. Plenty of gun shot wounds are capable of killing eventually even if they’re not immediately disabling, and it does you no good if your assailant eventually bleeds to death after they’ve finished stabbing you. The issue is that halting an attack occurs because of hydrostatic shock, which is a product of a bullets velocity and expansion. 22lr is capable of causing blood loss, which can eventually lead to death, but it does not deliver enough energy to reliable render an attacker incapable of continuing the fight if they’re sufficiently motivated. Assuming that the assailant isn’t immediately scared off by the brandishing or noise of a firearm, which is often the case, 22lr requires extremely good shot placement and volume to reliably end a fight, which makes it a poor choice all around. Generally for modern firearms the minimum is either 380acp or 9mm, depending on who you ask. The only advantage that 380 has is that some 380 guns are easier to manipulate for those with weak or small hands, otherwise 9mm is generally the winner here in terms of firearm choices, ammunition availability, and terminal ballistics. For comparison, here are the levels of energy for 3 cartridges. Energy isn’t the be all end all of terminal ballistics, bullet construction[1] and expansion matters, but it’s illustrative. The ranges quoted are necessary due to different bullet weights and pressure loading. 22lr: 130-200fpe 380ACP: 210-330fpe 9mm: 355-500fpe 0 - Any caliber is capable of killing and/or disabling with luck or extremely good shot placement, this is why even 22lr cannot be treated as a toy. But people shooting defensively do not make record shots generally, and you have to accommodate for the fear and adrenaline of a defensive encounter. 1 - The availability of quality defensive ammunition is another big factor. Defensive ammunition has gotten really good over the past half century, and most of these improvements have completely bypassed 22lr.
  - _carbyau_ 5y ago
    Thank you for the detailed response. I guess my dreamed up scenarios were more vague "shooter/assailant in the area" whereby I figured I'd want to "make myself less desirable to bother with". Hence small caliber, lots of noise/attempts and if - god forbid - anything connected it would still hurt/slow them. I never really contemplated a "someone intent on killing you" scenario. It isn't something I think of much and I appreciate that clearly people have. From your comments it seems clear that "stopping power" holds more of a place in conversations. It is interesting that 22lr hasn't really been technologically updated. But I guess there would be interoperability issues and a "chicken(gun) and the egg(ammo)" scenario to overcome from a commercial point of view.
    - ashtonkem 5y ago
      > I guess my dreamed up scenarios were more vague "shooter/assailant in the area" whereby I figured I'd want to "make myself less desirable to bother with". Generally the rule on such matters is that there is no such thing as a warning shot, both ethically and legally. For the same reason that shooting for the legs is a bad idea, bringing a lower caliber firearm to warn someone off is kind of a no-no. You should either be shooting to end the engagement, or not shooting at all. Obviously retreating from an encounter is always the best course of action (and a legal obligation in some states) if possible. > It is interesting that 22lr hasn't really been technologically updated. 22lr has seen tons of advancement, just not as much in the realm of terminal ballistics. There is incredibly intense competition for more accurate and consistent 22lr ammo, as this is the caliber used for a lot of olympic shooting and some increasingly popular non-olympic competitions. Fundamentally, it's really not possible to squeeze much more energy out of 22lr. Every production cartridge has a set maximum pressure and firearms are certified for this pressure by nation specific proof houses. For 22lr the max pressure is about 72% the pressure of a 9mm[0]. Squeezing more terminal power out of this cartridge would risk catastrophic firearm damage and probably company liability. Making matters worse is the fact that semi-automatic (e.g. handgun) firearm design changes pretty radically around or above 380ACP pressures. Above that firearms must have some sort of mechanism to delay opening until chamber pressures fall to a safe level, otherwise cartridges will potentially rupture during extraction and hurt the shooter. All 22lr pistols are of a much simpler design that improves accuracy and lowers price, but makes getting 9mm pressures into an existing 22lr handgun an impossible task. Much easier still to just start with a 9mm, since those work and are well understood. Also, it's a rimfire cartridge, and that's undesirable for a variety of reasons I'm too tired to explain right now. 0 - 64% of the higher spec +P ammo.
- orangepurple 5y ago
  A firearm used for self defense needs to provide a balance of bullet energy transfer (correlated with threat cessation effectiveness), ease of use, ability to make attempts to fire on target successfully given extreme stress, little or no notice to prepare, and operating while thoroughly disoriented due to surprise. Bullets which do not halt upon impact with the body but go through it with minimal damage do not stop the threat. The chances of this occurring decrease with caliber size increases and benefit from hollow point ammunition. Larger ammunition cartridges are heavy and bulky and you can't fit many bullets (=attempts) in a convenient cartridge. The decision to use a firearm is never taken lightly by a normal person, and normal people can not fire on target under stress. It's a balance between bullet energy transfer which is correlated with threat cessation and ergonomics. It's important to remember that a single shot will not stop most assailants. It's normal to have to fire 3-6 times with normal 9mm ammunition to stop someone intent on killing on you. Sometimes you get lucky with one, but it's not true most of the time. Many times gunshots are enough to subdue the threat without killing them.
  - _carbyau_ 5y ago
    Thank you for the detailed response. I guess my dreamed up scenarios were more vague "shooter/assailant in the area" whereby I figured I'd want to "make myself less desirable to bother with while I exit the area". Hence small caliber, lots of noise/attempts and if - god forbid - anything connected it would still hurt/slow them. I never really contemplated a "someone intent on killing you" scenario. It isn't something I think of much and I appreciate that clearly people have.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - orangepurple 5y ago
      In general most people simply won't ever encounter that scenario. There are parts of the US where the people who commit crimes against you won't think twice about "eliminating eyewitnesses," especially if they are a protected class with favorable treatment by the judiciary in their particular jurisdiction. Court systems vary immensely around the US in prosecutory discretion and rulings. For this reason it is more acceptable to defend yourself with firearms when in Texas than in the Northeast. Additionally, 9-1-1 simply does not work in many parts of the country. In rural areas, response times are on the order of half an hour or longer. In cities like Washington D.C., 9-1-1 can take FIVE MINUTES to pick up the phone. I could not believe it until I needed to use it. I was put on hold by 9-1-1, LOL. I was able to run away from the threat and hide in that case. I was attacked unprovoked near a dark wooded area while walking down the street. I got lucky then. The stories about Rock Creek Park disappearances are true.

_carbyau_ 5y ago

I largely agree with your comment. I am curious about the 22lr being "woefully underpowered for self defense" bit though. I mean, it will put holes into peoples bodies. And I thought the idea was self defense and keeping peoples heads down/awayFromYou. I know it won't put big holes in doors/tables etc. I guess I haven't really considered what the real requirements are for self defense in a country where so many people have gun. So why is 22lr not enough?

ashtonkem 5y ago
The standard of a defensive caliber is that it needs to be capable of immediately halting an attacker with the kinds of shots a scared defendant can pull off[0]. Not killing them immediately or eventually, but halting the attack. Plenty of gun shot wounds are capable of killing eventually even if they’re not immediately disabling, and it does you no good if your assailant eventually bleeds to death after they’ve finished stabbing you. The issue is that halting an attack occurs because of hydrostatic shock, which is a product of a bullets velocity and expansion. 22lr is capable of causing blood loss, which can eventually lead to death, but it does not deliver enough energy to reliable render an attacker incapable of continuing the fight if they’re sufficiently motivated. Assuming that the assailant isn’t immediately scared off by the brandishing or noise of a firearm, which is often the case, 22lr requires extremely good shot placement and volume to reliably end a fight, which makes it a poor choice all around. Generally for modern firearms the minimum is either 380acp or 9mm, depending on who you ask. The only advantage that 380 has is that some 380 guns are easier to manipulate for those with weak or small hands, otherwise 9mm is generally the winner here in terms of firearm choices, ammunition availability, and terminal ballistics. For comparison, here are the levels of energy for 3 cartridges. Energy isn’t the be all end all of terminal ballistics, bullet construction[1] and expansion matters, but it’s illustrative. The ranges quoted are necessary due to different bullet weights and pressure loading. 22lr: 130-200fpe 380ACP: 210-330fpe 9mm: 355-500fpe 0 - Any caliber is capable of killing and/or disabling with luck or extremely good shot placement, this is why even 22lr cannot be treated as a toy. But people shooting defensively do not make record shots generally, and you have to accommodate for the fear and adrenaline of a defensive encounter. 1 - The availability of quality defensive ammunition is another big factor. Defensive ammunition has gotten really good over the past half century, and most of these improvements have completely bypassed 22lr.
- _carbyau_ 5y ago
  Thank you for the detailed response. I guess my dreamed up scenarios were more vague "shooter/assailant in the area" whereby I figured I'd want to "make myself less desirable to bother with". Hence small caliber, lots of noise/attempts and if - god forbid - anything connected it would still hurt/slow them. I never really contemplated a "someone intent on killing you" scenario. It isn't something I think of much and I appreciate that clearly people have. From your comments it seems clear that "stopping power" holds more of a place in conversations. It is interesting that 22lr hasn't really been technologically updated. But I guess there would be interoperability issues and a "chicken(gun) and the egg(ammo)" scenario to overcome from a commercial point of view.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    > I guess my dreamed up scenarios were more vague "shooter/assailant in the area" whereby I figured I'd want to "make myself less desirable to bother with". Generally the rule on such matters is that there is no such thing as a warning shot, both ethically and legally. For the same reason that shooting for the legs is a bad idea, bringing a lower caliber firearm to warn someone off is kind of a no-no. You should either be shooting to end the engagement, or not shooting at all. Obviously retreating from an encounter is always the best course of action (and a legal obligation in some states) if possible. > It is interesting that 22lr hasn't really been technologically updated. 22lr has seen tons of advancement, just not as much in the realm of terminal ballistics. There is incredibly intense competition for more accurate and consistent 22lr ammo, as this is the caliber used for a lot of olympic shooting and some increasingly popular non-olympic competitions. Fundamentally, it's really not possible to squeeze much more energy out of 22lr. Every production cartridge has a set maximum pressure and firearms are certified for this pressure by nation specific proof houses. For 22lr the max pressure is about 72% the pressure of a 9mm[0]. Squeezing more terminal power out of this cartridge would risk catastrophic firearm damage and probably company liability. Making matters worse is the fact that semi-automatic (e.g. handgun) firearm design changes pretty radically around or above 380ACP pressures. Above that firearms must have some sort of mechanism to delay opening until chamber pressures fall to a safe level, otherwise cartridges will potentially rupture during extraction and hurt the shooter. All 22lr pistols are of a much simpler design that improves accuracy and lowers price, but makes getting 9mm pressures into an existing 22lr handgun an impossible task. Much easier still to just start with a 9mm, since those work and are well understood. Also, it's a rimfire cartridge, and that's undesirable for a variety of reasons I'm too tired to explain right now. 0 - 64% of the higher spec +P ammo.
orangepurple 5y ago
A firearm used for self defense needs to provide a balance of bullet energy transfer (correlated with threat cessation effectiveness), ease of use, ability to make attempts to fire on target successfully given extreme stress, little or no notice to prepare, and operating while thoroughly disoriented due to surprise. Bullets which do not halt upon impact with the body but go through it with minimal damage do not stop the threat. The chances of this occurring decrease with caliber size increases and benefit from hollow point ammunition. Larger ammunition cartridges are heavy and bulky and you can't fit many bullets (=attempts) in a convenient cartridge. The decision to use a firearm is never taken lightly by a normal person, and normal people can not fire on target under stress. It's a balance between bullet energy transfer which is correlated with threat cessation and ergonomics. It's important to remember that a single shot will not stop most assailants. It's normal to have to fire 3-6 times with normal 9mm ammunition to stop someone intent on killing on you. Sometimes you get lucky with one, but it's not true most of the time. Many times gunshots are enough to subdue the threat without killing them.
- _carbyau_ 5y ago
  Thank you for the detailed response. I guess my dreamed up scenarios were more vague "shooter/assailant in the area" whereby I figured I'd want to "make myself less desirable to bother with while I exit the area". Hence small caliber, lots of noise/attempts and if - god forbid - anything connected it would still hurt/slow them. I never really contemplated a "someone intent on killing you" scenario. It isn't something I think of much and I appreciate that clearly people have.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - orangepurple 5y ago
    In general most people simply won't ever encounter that scenario. There are parts of the US where the people who commit crimes against you won't think twice about "eliminating eyewitnesses," especially if they are a protected class with favorable treatment by the judiciary in their particular jurisdiction. Court systems vary immensely around the US in prosecutory discretion and rulings. For this reason it is more acceptable to defend yourself with firearms when in Texas than in the Northeast. Additionally, 9-1-1 simply does not work in many parts of the country. In rural areas, response times are on the order of half an hour or longer. In cities like Washington D.C., 9-1-1 can take FIVE MINUTES to pick up the phone. I could not believe it until I needed to use it. I was put on hold by 9-1-1, LOL. I was able to run away from the threat and hide in that case. I was attacked unprovoked near a dark wooded area while walking down the street. I got lucky then. The stories about Rock Creek Park disappearances are true.