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I worked at a startup where the CEO reverted the unlimited PTO because one asshole engineer took 2 months off paid leave and then came back and quit immediately

I worked at a startup where the CEO reverted the unlimited PTO because one asshole engineer took 2 months off paid leave and then came back and quit immediately. We were angry at the engineer, not the CEO, because it was clear what he was doing was taking advantage of the company's generosity. When I worked at Uber engineering which had unlimited PTO, I took between 6-8 weeks of PTO every year. Most years was at least 6, but one year I took 8. No one batted an eye. I think it all depends on company culture or maybe team culture. I would never work for a company that denied me a PTO day, even if it was a single day. I would never irresponsibly take PTO but I would also make sure that I took at least 4 weeks off per year no matter what. The secret is taking 1 week off per quarter, and then another 2 weeks off during Christmas. That automatically brings you up to 6 weeks. But make no mistake, unlimited vacation is a way to keep PTO off the books as a liability. In California you cannot lose PTO that you have accrued. They can stop accrual however once you reach a certain level. Once you max out on accrual, you are giving the company money, which is stupid so it's important to consistently take PTO.

ahtihn 5y ago
> one asshole engineer took 2 months off paid leave and then came back and quit immediately. We were angry at the engineer, not the CEO, because it was clear what he was doing was taking advantage of the company's generosity. I don't understand why you're mad at someone for using a benefit he's entitled to? Unlimited PTO means you should never have to work if you don't want to. Otherwise it's not unlimited. If there's a limit just state it upfront.
- tppiotrowski 5y ago
  "In many organizations, there is an unhealthy emphasis on process and not much freedom. These organizations didn’t start that way, but the python of process squeezed harder every time something went wrong. Specifically, many organizations have freedom and responsibility when they are small. Everyone knows each other, and everyone picks up the trash. As they grow, however, the business gets more complex, and sometimes the average talent and passion level goes down. As the informal, smooth-running organization starts to break down, pockets of chaos emerge, and the general outcry is to “grow up” and add traditional management and process to reduce the chaos. As rules and procedures proliferate, the value system evolves into rule following (i.e. that is how you get rewarded). If this standard management approach is done well, then the company becomes very efficient at its business model — the system is dummy-proofed, and creative thinkers are told to stop questioning the status quo. This kind of organization is very specialized and well adapted to its business model. Eventually, however, over 10 to 100 years, the business model inevitably has to change, and most of these companies are unable to adapt." [1] [1] https://jobs.netflix.com/culture https://jobs.netflix.com/culture
  - pineconewarrior 5y ago
    This is so well-written. Now I want to work at Netflix!
- lhorie 5y ago
  Well, this is kinda like complimentary condiments or whatever. Technically you are allowed to abuse it to the wazoo, but in practice it just means "Take a reasonable amount, we're not stingy". There obviously is an unspoken "we're all grown ups here" type of social contract in these sorts of things. Abusing it is going to come at the cost of the commons, and in the GP's case it did cost them the perk, so being angry at the abuser seems justified. One of my co-workers a few years ago decided to go to Japan for 3 months, but that didn't fly with my company and it ended up being mostly an unpaid sabbatical (despite the unlimited PTO policy). 3 months later, the guy extended his stay and let us know he wasn't coming back. There were no hard rules anywhere in sight, but the way this played out seems perfectly reasonable to me.
  - sneak 5y ago
    > There obviously is an unspoken "we're all grown ups here" type of social contract in these sorts of things. It's absolutely not grown-up behavior to remove terms from an explicit business contract (employment agreement) and move them to an implicit, unwritten "I know it when I see it" social contract. Obviously there's some actual limit that your platonic grownup has in mind, between 2 weeks and 40 weeks of PTO per year. Just write it down.
  - ryandrake 5y ago
    Some people are just missing that part of their development that helps them to intuitively grasp what counts as abuse when there are no clear written rules. You can't just ask them to be reasonable. I worked for a company that ordered free dinner for folks who stayed late. No limit to what you can eat, but if you're feeling a little hungry, grab a slice of pizza! Well, sure enough a few people ruined it for everyone by taking armfuls of pizza home with them, enough to feed 10 people. I'm talking multiple whole pizza pies, boxes and all, straight to their cars. "It was for employees, and there were no written restrictions" was the justification. So, that perk ended.
    - tikhonj 5y ago
      It's interesting how inconsistent and asymmetric these intuitive limits seem to be. Pushing employees to work extra hours, easily $X000 in time? Perfectly acceptable. Abusive JIRA-powered micromanagement? That's just how it is. But $60 worth of pizza!? How could a reasonable person possible justify that?
- neltnerb 5y ago
  Wasn't that the point? They're talking about being mad about someone taking 2 months of PTO off and then talk about how they always take 6-8 weeks cough of PTO with no one batting an eye. So the reason for being mad is the company and team culture. The first company had a clear unspoken culture that actually using the benefit was off limits.
- conductr 5y ago
  On that same point, I see a lot of turnover throughout my career and would say about 50% chance someone goes on medical leave and actually comes back to work. We basically start recruiting expecting they’ll not return. It’s obviously correlated with that persons income and ability step out of their employee compensation. But, especially with first time mother’s in their >30. They’ve been saving for it and often hold a key position within the organization by this point in their career. Or perhaps that’s just what I’ve observed at several companies.
- zaphirplane 5y ago
  Probably because it changed the workload or leave approvals for the remaining staff Depends on your mental model, some would say the company should be staffed to account for x% on leave, thou account for a person taking 2 months is likely out of reach for smaller companies
lostlogin 5y ago
Hang on, I’m in danger of understanding something. If you get 5 weeks PTO and never take any then leave after 2 years, I assume it gets paid out? If your contract is for unlimited PTO and you never take any and leave after 2 years, what do you get? Edit: Thanks. Yikes. Unlimited PTO actually seems worse than a specified allowance from where I sit.
- detaro 5y ago
  nothing, that's part of the motivation for companies to offer it.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  > If your contract is for unlimited PTO and you never take any and leave after 2 years, what do you get? In all the "unlimited PTO" jobs I've had, nothing.
- jedberg 5y ago
  You get nothing because you've accrued nothing.
- macksd 5y ago
  Nothing. That's why they don't have to keep it on their books.
- drm237 5y ago
  It depends on if your company capped how much you could accrue. However much you accrued should be paid out. Nothing.
- eli 5y ago
  > If you get 5 weeks PTO and never take any then leave after 2 years, I assume it gets paid out? Even in this case, it depends where you live and sometimes what your contract says. California requires it, but most states don't.
  - tkojames 5y ago
    Yep in California PTO and vacation get paid out. They can not do use it or lose it. They can cap how much of PTO and vacation you can have at one time. Sick time does not need to be paid out. The whole scam of unlimited PTO is so they do not have to pay out when you leave. Then can not roll over your PTO or vacation at the end of year but if they do that, they have you pay you out.
jedberg 5y ago
> Once you max out on accrual, you are giving the company money, which is stupid so it's important to consistently take PTO. Early in my career I never took a vacation, so I maxed out. I realized that I'd be losing money by being maxed out, so I worked out a deal with my boss to take every Friday off from May to September that year. Four day work weeks all summer was pretty nice!
- hkt 5y ago
  Genius. I'm asking to do this tomorrow.
  - milesvp 5y ago
    Another option is if you can alternate every other friday and monday you'll get 4 day weekends every other weekend. This can really be refreshing too.
    - hnick 5y ago
      Just be careful. When I went to part time I made the mistake of choosing Monday as one of my days off - most public holidays here are Mondays so I missed out.
      - dorgo 5y ago
        Ive explicitly chose wednesday as my day off for that reason.
- rufus_foreman 5y ago
  I'm a FIRE type personality, which means I would like to take the hit now to be better off in the future. What that meant at my first real job was that even though I would have liked to take time off during the year, I liked the idea of having time off saved up better. Since we couldn't carry days over, that meant that around the middle of November I told the team, happy holidays, see you all next year. On January second, my boss told me he would never let me do that again. Which was sort of my first clue that employment conditions could be negotiated on a one by one basis.
quantumBerry 5y ago
>I worked at a startup where the CEO reverted the unlimited PTO because one asshole engineer took 2 months off paid leave and then came back and quit immediately. The CEO made a dumb bet and lost. You can't be mad when you offer unlimited PTO and people use it.
- edoceo 5y ago
  Oh, you can be mad. But you shouldn't be a jerk about it.
- midev 5y ago
  > The CEO made a dumb bet and lost. You can't be mad when you offer unlimited PTO and people use it This is such a dumb take. Unlimited PTO does not mean you take two months off. I'm tired of everything needing a footnote and qualifications because people like you only understand things in the most superficial sense.
  - dragonsky67 5y ago
    Well what does it mean? the words are pretty plain and clear. I've never worked in a place with a unlimited PTO policy, so I have no idea what it means and would need clarification. Most of us work in technology and understand that in most cases the devil is in the detail.
    - midev 5y ago
      Yes, the words are pretty plain and clear. You can take as much time off as you want, within reason. There is no cap. Need a few days off for a break? Go for it. Want to take a two week vacation a few times per year. Approved! Think you can take two months off and disappear? Nope. Some people were born without a nuance gene and don't understand this distinction.
      - quantumBerry 5y ago
        >Think you can take two months off and disappear? Nope. Apparently you can, because he did, and it worked.
it200219 5y ago
Yup, have seen similar thing where we hired and SWE and took 2 months off stating he need to take care of sick parents in India. He came back, 2 days later he resigned & joined FAANG.
andrewfong 5y ago
I wonder what would happen if California just passed a law that called for unlimited PTO to be paid out (using some pretty high implied accrual rate, like 8 weeks a year or something).
- hkt 5y ago
  I don't know how it would work in cali, but in the UK I'd pitch at statutory minimum holidays (25 days+bank holidays) OR average time off taken at the company, whichever was higher. I'm sure an employment tribunal would take either.
  - vidarh 5y ago
    Slight correction: UK statutory paid leave is 28 days. Bank holidays can be counted as part of the 28, if given as paid leave. Source: https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights
danielrpa 5y ago
It's the good old "tragedy of the commons": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons Also known as "that's why we can't have good things"... :/
xattt 5y ago
Let me tell you the song of front-lin nurses where summer vacation must be requested in March, time off for March break be put in before the end of January and Christmas/New Years requests must be put in September. Oh, and you have to alternate once every year.
- aurizon 5y ago
  I can see a stiffer policy in critical care, (or assembly line) types of jobs that have to be organised to fill the position well in advance to train-in/hire/book via temp agency the workers so they know when you are going/returning so things work well on a continuous basis. Some companies have a full shut down and people get some sort of bonus for scheduling their 2, 3, 4 weeks then. Often line changes/upgrades/model shift etc are done efficiently so the line runs flawlessly at startup. High tech jobs, esp startups often have novel policies that are rarer in the average industry. Lots of interesting points of view in this thread.
  - xattt 5y ago
    I definitely could see health care borrowing ideas from manufacturing for scheduling. LEAN/Six-Sigma has indeed been applied to this world. However, innovation is sometimes stifled because care providers being compared to assembly-line workers is taboo.
chana_masala 5y ago
I also worked at Uber as an engineer and could barely take off a few days to visit my family during Christmas. I'm not even Christian but I at least thought that would be a good time. I guess it was very dependent on department.
- dragonsky67 5y ago
  Of course we got rid of slavery many years ago... We just call it different things now.
truetraveller 5y ago
In this case, I applaud the engineer. He called the company's bluff. Though, I believe quitting immediately was a bit too much. Don't falsely advertise to lure people! Be clear about your vacation policy.
- midev 5y ago
  > He called the company's bluff It wasn't a bluff. Unlimited PTO has never meant taking months off at a time. I've never met an adult that needed clarification on what unlimited PTO means. Nonsense like this just ruins it for everyone else.
  - brailsafe 5y ago
    People probably should just have 2 months off a year, I don't see what your problem is. It would be way better for everyone's mental health, this guy was just smart enough to take it, probably in an effort to see if it would help them feel fine about staying at the company afterward.
  - zamadatix 5y ago
    ~320 hours isn't an uncommon amount to bank, I had more than that when I left my first tech job after 2 years. Albeit I didn't just take time off at the end I went the payout route but that's not really an option for unlimited PTO. I also took over a month off at the end of every year at then next job as they had decent total time off but didn't allow it to be rolled over year to year so I wouldn't say taking a month or two off is ridiculous in it's own right either. Hard to say if it was actually unfair or not given the lack of background details (e.g. were they only there for a couple of months working the minimum needed or where they there for 2 years working heavily) but nothing about what was said so far actually seems unfair. "unlimited pto" should be about flexibility not about trying to silently lower the amount of PTO people take. My current place now is much smaller and has unlimited PTO. I just act like it is no rollover front loaded and arranged my major blocks throughout the year up front. Throughout the year I'll make additional minor requests for unplanned things. Unfortunately many others don't do this and even though nobody is ever denied very few come close to using how much I get approved on Jan 1 and they'll just leave without it.
trynewideas 5y ago
While I was at HubSpot during the initial rollout of their infamous $30k developer referral program, I remember one person getting a referral, paying out the $30k, and then taking PTO until they quit 90 days later. The developer who was recruited was already set from a previous equity cashout and had effectively retired. Both programs got dramatically reformed after that, though naturally retrospective profiles of the program give it a much shinier glow.
- digianarchist 5y ago
  Strange you can take paid leave during a probation period. I'm guessing no probation?
texasbigdata 5y ago
It’s often potentially a slight financial trick as well. At least it can be. Depending on structuring it can a tinnnnnny one time pickup on profitability due to not having a vacation accrual balance sheet liability any more. Aka 1)when you leave no payout, and 2) the one time reversal of that acrual can(*) impact profit. Do the math with payroll at 40% of revenue that can be a ~2.5% one time pickup in profit margins. Slightly less tax adjusted and fully rolled back. Just saying it could be even more nefarious than you intended to convey :)
broknbottle 5y ago
How is the engineer a asshole for utilizing one of the company perks? It sounds more like they were being underutilized and had management material written all over them.
nominally_human 5y ago
I personally would hate to lose unlimited vacations, or more specifically what Atlassian provides. I like the freedom of not worrying about how much vacation I have available. It allows me to take random days off or take a long planned vacation.
Monory 5y ago
> took 2 months off paid leave and then came back and quit immediately That's absolutely common practice in places where you can accrue PTO without limits. People rest with compensation they earned and then leave re-energized. And that's a good thing.
- digianarchist 5y ago
  You either take accrued vacation as a lump sum and take the tax hit or just take time off and get paid as you would.
surajrmal 5y ago
Every company I've worked at forces you to take your vacation if you hit the accrual cap. Simply preventing you from continuing to accrue seems like a terrible policy.
smsm42 5y ago
> We were angry at the engineer, not the CEO, because it was clear what he was doing was taking advantage of the company's generosity. In other words, we tried to scam him on "unlimited" vacation which isn't, but he scammed us back by taking us at our word and treating it as if we weren't actually lying. Indeed, what a jerk.

ahtihn 5y ago

> one asshole engineer took 2 months off paid leave and then came back and quit immediately. We were angry at the engineer, not the CEO, because it was clear what he was doing was taking advantage of the company's generosity. I don't understand why you're mad at someone for using a benefit he's entitled to? Unlimited PTO means you should never have to work if you don't want to. Otherwise it's not unlimited. If there's a limit just state it upfront.

tppiotrowski 5y ago
"In many organizations, there is an unhealthy emphasis on process and not much freedom. These organizations didn’t start that way, but the python of process squeezed harder every time something went wrong. Specifically, many organizations have freedom and responsibility when they are small. Everyone knows each other, and everyone picks up the trash. As they grow, however, the business gets more complex, and sometimes the average talent and passion level goes down. As the informal, smooth-running organization starts to break down, pockets of chaos emerge, and the general outcry is to “grow up” and add traditional management and process to reduce the chaos. As rules and procedures proliferate, the value system evolves into rule following (i.e. that is how you get rewarded). If this standard management approach is done well, then the company becomes very efficient at its business model — the system is dummy-proofed, and creative thinkers are told to stop questioning the status quo. This kind of organization is very specialized and well adapted to its business model. Eventually, however, over 10 to 100 years, the business model inevitably has to change, and most of these companies are unable to adapt." [1] [1] https://jobs.netflix.com/culture https://jobs.netflix.com/culture
- pineconewarrior 5y ago
  This is so well-written. Now I want to work at Netflix!
lhorie 5y ago
Well, this is kinda like complimentary condiments or whatever. Technically you are allowed to abuse it to the wazoo, but in practice it just means "Take a reasonable amount, we're not stingy". There obviously is an unspoken "we're all grown ups here" type of social contract in these sorts of things. Abusing it is going to come at the cost of the commons, and in the GP's case it did cost them the perk, so being angry at the abuser seems justified. One of my co-workers a few years ago decided to go to Japan for 3 months, but that didn't fly with my company and it ended up being mostly an unpaid sabbatical (despite the unlimited PTO policy). 3 months later, the guy extended his stay and let us know he wasn't coming back. There were no hard rules anywhere in sight, but the way this played out seems perfectly reasonable to me.
- sneak 5y ago
  > There obviously is an unspoken "we're all grown ups here" type of social contract in these sorts of things. It's absolutely not grown-up behavior to remove terms from an explicit business contract (employment agreement) and move them to an implicit, unwritten "I know it when I see it" social contract. Obviously there's some actual limit that your platonic grownup has in mind, between 2 weeks and 40 weeks of PTO per year. Just write it down.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  Some people are just missing that part of their development that helps them to intuitively grasp what counts as abuse when there are no clear written rules. You can't just ask them to be reasonable. I worked for a company that ordered free dinner for folks who stayed late. No limit to what you can eat, but if you're feeling a little hungry, grab a slice of pizza! Well, sure enough a few people ruined it for everyone by taking armfuls of pizza home with them, enough to feed 10 people. I'm talking multiple whole pizza pies, boxes and all, straight to their cars. "It was for employees, and there were no written restrictions" was the justification. So, that perk ended.
  - tikhonj 5y ago
    It's interesting how inconsistent and asymmetric these intuitive limits seem to be. Pushing employees to work extra hours, easily $X000 in time? Perfectly acceptable. Abusive JIRA-powered micromanagement? That's just how it is. But $60 worth of pizza!? How could a reasonable person possible justify that?
neltnerb 5y ago
Wasn't that the point? They're talking about being mad about someone taking 2 months of PTO off and then talk about how they always take 6-8 weeks cough of PTO with no one batting an eye. So the reason for being mad is the company and team culture. The first company had a clear unspoken culture that actually using the benefit was off limits.
conductr 5y ago
On that same point, I see a lot of turnover throughout my career and would say about 50% chance someone goes on medical leave and actually comes back to work. We basically start recruiting expecting they’ll not return. It’s obviously correlated with that persons income and ability step out of their employee compensation. But, especially with first time mother’s in their >30. They’ve been saving for it and often hold a key position within the organization by this point in their career. Or perhaps that’s just what I’ve observed at several companies.
zaphirplane 5y ago
Probably because it changed the workload or leave approvals for the remaining staff Depends on your mental model, some would say the company should be staffed to account for x% on leave, thou account for a person taking 2 months is likely out of reach for smaller companies

lostlogin 5y ago

Hang on, I’m in danger of understanding something. If you get 5 weeks PTO and never take any then leave after 2 years, I assume it gets paid out? If your contract is for unlimited PTO and you never take any and leave after 2 years, what do you get? Edit: Thanks. Yikes. Unlimited PTO actually seems worse than a specified allowance from where I sit.

detaro 5y ago
nothing, that's part of the motivation for companies to offer it.
commandlinefan 5y ago
> If your contract is for unlimited PTO and you never take any and leave after 2 years, what do you get? In all the "unlimited PTO" jobs I've had, nothing.
jedberg 5y ago
You get nothing because you've accrued nothing.
macksd 5y ago
Nothing. That's why they don't have to keep it on their books.
drm237 5y ago
It depends on if your company capped how much you could accrue. However much you accrued should be paid out. Nothing.
eli 5y ago
> If you get 5 weeks PTO and never take any then leave after 2 years, I assume it gets paid out? Even in this case, it depends where you live and sometimes what your contract says. California requires it, but most states don't.
- tkojames 5y ago
  Yep in California PTO and vacation get paid out. They can not do use it or lose it. They can cap how much of PTO and vacation you can have at one time. Sick time does not need to be paid out. The whole scam of unlimited PTO is so they do not have to pay out when you leave. Then can not roll over your PTO or vacation at the end of year but if they do that, they have you pay you out.

jedberg 5y ago

> Once you max out on accrual, you are giving the company money, which is stupid so it's important to consistently take PTO. Early in my career I never took a vacation, so I maxed out. I realized that I'd be losing money by being maxed out, so I worked out a deal with my boss to take every Friday off from May to September that year. Four day work weeks all summer was pretty nice!

hkt 5y ago
Genius. I'm asking to do this tomorrow.
- milesvp 5y ago
  Another option is if you can alternate every other friday and monday you'll get 4 day weekends every other weekend. This can really be refreshing too.
  - hnick 5y ago
    Just be careful. When I went to part time I made the mistake of choosing Monday as one of my days off - most public holidays here are Mondays so I missed out.
    - dorgo 5y ago
      Ive explicitly chose wednesday as my day off for that reason.
rufus_foreman 5y ago
I'm a FIRE type personality, which means I would like to take the hit now to be better off in the future. What that meant at my first real job was that even though I would have liked to take time off during the year, I liked the idea of having time off saved up better. Since we couldn't carry days over, that meant that around the middle of November I told the team, happy holidays, see you all next year. On January second, my boss told me he would never let me do that again. Which was sort of my first clue that employment conditions could be negotiated on a one by one basis.

quantumBerry 5y ago

>I worked at a startup where the CEO reverted the unlimited PTO because one asshole engineer took 2 months off paid leave and then came back and quit immediately. The CEO made a dumb bet and lost. You can't be mad when you offer unlimited PTO and people use it.

edoceo 5y ago
Oh, you can be mad. But you shouldn't be a jerk about it.
midev 5y ago
> The CEO made a dumb bet and lost. You can't be mad when you offer unlimited PTO and people use it This is such a dumb take. Unlimited PTO does not mean you take two months off. I'm tired of everything needing a footnote and qualifications because people like you only understand things in the most superficial sense.
- dragonsky67 5y ago
  Well what does it mean? the words are pretty plain and clear. I've never worked in a place with a unlimited PTO policy, so I have no idea what it means and would need clarification. Most of us work in technology and understand that in most cases the devil is in the detail.
  - midev 5y ago
    Yes, the words are pretty plain and clear. You can take as much time off as you want, within reason. There is no cap. Need a few days off for a break? Go for it. Want to take a two week vacation a few times per year. Approved! Think you can take two months off and disappear? Nope. Some people were born without a nuance gene and don't understand this distinction.
    - quantumBerry 5y ago
      >Think you can take two months off and disappear? Nope. Apparently you can, because he did, and it worked.

it200219 5y ago

Yup, have seen similar thing where we hired and SWE and took 2 months off stating he need to take care of sick parents in India. He came back, 2 days later he resigned & joined FAANG.

andrewfong 5y ago

I wonder what would happen if California just passed a law that called for unlimited PTO to be paid out (using some pretty high implied accrual rate, like 8 weeks a year or something).

hkt 5y ago
I don't know how it would work in cali, but in the UK I'd pitch at statutory minimum holidays (25 days+bank holidays) OR average time off taken at the company, whichever was higher. I'm sure an employment tribunal would take either.
- vidarh 5y ago
  Slight correction: UK statutory paid leave is 28 days. Bank holidays can be counted as part of the 28, if given as paid leave. Source: https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights

danielrpa 5y ago

It's the good old "tragedy of the commons": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons Also known as "that's why we can't have good things"... :/

xattt 5y ago

Let me tell you the song of front-lin nurses where summer vacation must be requested in March, time off for March break be put in before the end of January and Christmas/New Years requests must be put in September. Oh, and you have to alternate once every year.

aurizon 5y ago
I can see a stiffer policy in critical care, (or assembly line) types of jobs that have to be organised to fill the position well in advance to train-in/hire/book via temp agency the workers so they know when you are going/returning so things work well on a continuous basis. Some companies have a full shut down and people get some sort of bonus for scheduling their 2, 3, 4 weeks then. Often line changes/upgrades/model shift etc are done efficiently so the line runs flawlessly at startup. High tech jobs, esp startups often have novel policies that are rarer in the average industry. Lots of interesting points of view in this thread.
- xattt 5y ago
  I definitely could see health care borrowing ideas from manufacturing for scheduling. LEAN/Six-Sigma has indeed been applied to this world. However, innovation is sometimes stifled because care providers being compared to assembly-line workers is taboo.

chana_masala 5y ago

I also worked at Uber as an engineer and could barely take off a few days to visit my family during Christmas. I'm not even Christian but I at least thought that would be a good time. I guess it was very dependent on department.

dragonsky67 5y ago
Of course we got rid of slavery many years ago... We just call it different things now.

truetraveller 5y ago

In this case, I applaud the engineer. He called the company's bluff. Though, I believe quitting immediately was a bit too much. Don't falsely advertise to lure people! Be clear about your vacation policy.

midev 5y ago
> He called the company's bluff It wasn't a bluff. Unlimited PTO has never meant taking months off at a time. I've never met an adult that needed clarification on what unlimited PTO means. Nonsense like this just ruins it for everyone else.
- brailsafe 5y ago
  People probably should just have 2 months off a year, I don't see what your problem is. It would be way better for everyone's mental health, this guy was just smart enough to take it, probably in an effort to see if it would help them feel fine about staying at the company afterward.
- zamadatix 5y ago
  ~320 hours isn't an uncommon amount to bank, I had more than that when I left my first tech job after 2 years. Albeit I didn't just take time off at the end I went the payout route but that's not really an option for unlimited PTO. I also took over a month off at the end of every year at then next job as they had decent total time off but didn't allow it to be rolled over year to year so I wouldn't say taking a month or two off is ridiculous in it's own right either. Hard to say if it was actually unfair or not given the lack of background details (e.g. were they only there for a couple of months working the minimum needed or where they there for 2 years working heavily) but nothing about what was said so far actually seems unfair. "unlimited pto" should be about flexibility not about trying to silently lower the amount of PTO people take. My current place now is much smaller and has unlimited PTO. I just act like it is no rollover front loaded and arranged my major blocks throughout the year up front. Throughout the year I'll make additional minor requests for unplanned things. Unfortunately many others don't do this and even though nobody is ever denied very few come close to using how much I get approved on Jan 1 and they'll just leave without it.

trynewideas 5y ago

While I was at HubSpot during the initial rollout of their infamous $30k developer referral program, I remember one person getting a referral, paying out the $30k, and then taking PTO until they quit 90 days later. The developer who was recruited was already set from a previous equity cashout and had effectively retired. Both programs got dramatically reformed after that, though naturally retrospective profiles of the program give it a much shinier glow.

digianarchist 5y ago
Strange you can take paid leave during a probation period. I'm guessing no probation?

texasbigdata 5y ago

It’s often potentially a slight financial trick as well. At least it can be. Depending on structuring it can a tinnnnnny one time pickup on profitability due to not having a vacation accrual balance sheet liability any more. Aka 1)when you leave no payout, and 2) the one time reversal of that acrual can(*) impact profit. Do the math with payroll at 40% of revenue that can be a ~2.5% one time pickup in profit margins. Slightly less tax adjusted and fully rolled back. Just saying it could be even more nefarious than you intended to convey :)

broknbottle 5y ago

How is the engineer a asshole for utilizing one of the company perks? It sounds more like they were being underutilized and had management material written all over them.

nominally_human 5y ago

I personally would hate to lose unlimited vacations, or more specifically what Atlassian provides. I like the freedom of not worrying about how much vacation I have available. It allows me to take random days off or take a long planned vacation.

Monory 5y ago

> took 2 months off paid leave and then came back and quit immediately That's absolutely common practice in places where you can accrue PTO without limits. People rest with compensation they earned and then leave re-energized. And that's a good thing.

digianarchist 5y ago
You either take accrued vacation as a lump sum and take the tax hit or just take time off and get paid as you would.

surajrmal 5y ago

Every company I've worked at forces you to take your vacation if you hit the accrual cap. Simply preventing you from continuing to accrue seems like a terrible policy.

smsm42 5y ago

> We were angry at the engineer, not the CEO, because it was clear what he was doing was taking advantage of the company's generosity. In other words, we tried to scam him on "unlimited" vacation which isn't, but he scammed us back by taking us at our word and treating it as if we weren't actually lying. Indeed, what a jerk.