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Can people not just take PTO whenever they want? Or does it breach some company policy at certain places? I don’t get why this person felt like he had to ask fo

Can people not just take PTO whenever they want? Or does it breach some company policy at certain places? I don’t get why this person felt like he had to ask for time off when his wife had cancer. edit: thanks for the responses. My question was not on PTO accrual or the optics around it, but on the practice of just scheduling time off and taking it versus asking for permission. Today I learned I am either very lucky to be working at the places I have been, or maybe my bosses have been too timid to tell me no

MisterBastahrd 5y ago
Did you read the article? According to the author, you don't accrue PTO there AT ALL. Your manager can basically just allow you to be paid for time when you aren't working at his discretion. No maximum, but no minimum too.
- TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
  The business needs are balanced against your time off. If the product you’re working on is behind schedule, for example, PTO is less likely to be approved.
  - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
    When you aren't actually accruing hours, "business needs" are a euphemism for "your manager's whims."
- drstewart 5y ago
  >Your manager can basically just allow you to be paid for time when you aren't working at his discretion This has nothing to do with unlimited PTO, or even legally mandated vacation time. Even in Europe, which I'm sure all the people here will point to, has similar rules, e.g: https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/employee-rights.html https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/employee-rights.html >Employees must apply for vacation time and the employer must approve the written request. An employer can turn down a request due to urgent operational reasons or vacation applications of other employees who, due to "social factors", have a higher priority.
  - mikebos 5y ago
    The practice in Europe is such that as a large company there is no excuse for urgent operational reasons / social factors, these could have been mitigated by more personnel. A fact well established at least in the Dutch court and I assume valid in the rest of Europe.
  - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
    It's how "unlimited PTO" actually works. It's unlimited at both ends of the spectrum because the US has no laws that mandate that employees ever get time off.
pklausler 5y ago
IME it's "unlimited" but each request requires approval.
kasey_junk 5y ago
More than that, his leave was protected my Family and Medical Leave Act. They can deny PTO but they can’t deny unpaid leave. This person should file a complaint with the US Dept. of Labor.
- denverkarma 5y ago
  The person took paid medical leave, and when that ended, was offered unpaid leave. They didn't want to use unpaid leave, they wanted to "use their earned vacation." But the person did not understand - apparently still does not understand - that there is no accrued vacation.
  - babycake 5y ago
    There is no accrued vacation ok... but he is supposed to get 'unlimited' vacation days, right? So if you take that word 'unlimited' at face value, that means he should be able to take some days off to take care of his wife. Unlimited PTO is part of his compensation package for working at this company, so while he didn't 'accrue' vacation in the traditional sense, he's still entitled to his PTO. So in the end, it doesn't matter whether he accrued them or not, his PTO is his to use. And he was denied that. He even stated that his manager was the one who stated to him that he had at least 20 days off: > When I joined, my manager told me exactly how many days I have: "federal holidays + 20 days", which is considered "quite generous for the US" (exact quotes) So it's not even on him that he thinks he's earned 20 days. What difference does it make if he 'earned' his PTO vs using his 'unlimited' PTO? I don't understand why this distinction is being made in the context of the article. If it's just to say that companies can deny PTO because it's not federally protected, well, that's an even bigger problem. Maybe it should right? Either way it makes the company look bad.
    - denverkarma 5y ago
      I agree with you about how it looks reading only this persons story. However, my experience with Atlassian was that taking PTO is no problem, and normally a request like this would not have met pushback. From what I know of the situation, there was a lot more to it than this.
LeifCarrotson 5y ago
Um, yes, of course you have to ask for time off. How else would it work - you'd just tell your manager that you weren't coming in and then not show up and your tasks wouldn't get done? That seems ludicrous, you'd be fired, good luck getting anything you left in your desk drawers back. I'm fortunate now to work at a place where if I had to take time off for a medical emergency or paternity leave I could call and explain and it would almost definitely be granted, they might ask for some email support or phone calls to offload my tasks to someone else... but you still have to ask.
- 0xffff2 5y ago
  > you'd just tell your manager that you weren't coming in and then not show up and your tasks wouldn't get done? Yes, exactly. That's how it works in my organization. You don't schedule tasks when you're going to be out of the office. If they're time critical, someone else will pick them up (and drop less time critical tasks of their own). If they're not time critical, they just wait for your return. I recognize that I'm lucky to be in this situation, but it's certainly possible if you have a reasonable bus-factor.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Apes 5y ago
It's the "unlimited PTO" scam - tech companies figured out a loophole that lets them give their employees zero days of guaranteed PTO, doesn't require them to pay out for unused PTO days when an employee leaves, and is technically legal for meeting the minimum PTO laws in the US.
kayodelycaon 5y ago
I've worked at a place where use of PTO had to be authorized. If you were sick, you needed to get that approved a week before calling in. There was an exception if you had a doctor's note, but too many of those, note or not, you'd be fired. Using federally-protected unpaid leave would get you fired under some other pretense when you returned to work. At a different job, I was doing fine without accommodations until the new HR manage decided to get rid of flex time and require PTO to be taken in 8 hours blocks. Shortly after I applied for ADA accommodations, they took a few montsh to move me into a different department under a very specific role made for just for me. Then after a few months in that role, they cut the position. Finding another job wasn't an option. I had recently been diagnosed with bipolar and couldn't afford losing my insurance.

MisterBastahrd 5y ago

Did you read the article? According to the author, you don't accrue PTO there AT ALL. Your manager can basically just allow you to be paid for time when you aren't working at his discretion. No maximum, but no minimum too.

TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
The business needs are balanced against your time off. If the product you’re working on is behind schedule, for example, PTO is less likely to be approved.
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  When you aren't actually accruing hours, "business needs" are a euphemism for "your manager's whims."
drstewart 5y ago
>Your manager can basically just allow you to be paid for time when you aren't working at his discretion This has nothing to do with unlimited PTO, or even legally mandated vacation time. Even in Europe, which I'm sure all the people here will point to, has similar rules, e.g: https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/employee-rights.html https://www.howtogermany.com/pages/employee-rights.html >Employees must apply for vacation time and the employer must approve the written request. An employer can turn down a request due to urgent operational reasons or vacation applications of other employees who, due to "social factors", have a higher priority.
- mikebos 5y ago
  The practice in Europe is such that as a large company there is no excuse for urgent operational reasons / social factors, these could have been mitigated by more personnel. A fact well established at least in the Dutch court and I assume valid in the rest of Europe.
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  It's how "unlimited PTO" actually works. It's unlimited at both ends of the spectrum because the US has no laws that mandate that employees ever get time off.

pklausler 5y ago

IME it's "unlimited" but each request requires approval.

kasey_junk 5y ago

More than that, his leave was protected my Family and Medical Leave Act. They can deny PTO but they can’t deny unpaid leave. This person should file a complaint with the US Dept. of Labor.

denverkarma 5y ago
The person took paid medical leave, and when that ended, was offered unpaid leave. They didn't want to use unpaid leave, they wanted to "use their earned vacation." But the person did not understand - apparently still does not understand - that there is no accrued vacation.
- babycake 5y ago
  There is no accrued vacation ok... but he is supposed to get 'unlimited' vacation days, right? So if you take that word 'unlimited' at face value, that means he should be able to take some days off to take care of his wife. Unlimited PTO is part of his compensation package for working at this company, so while he didn't 'accrue' vacation in the traditional sense, he's still entitled to his PTO. So in the end, it doesn't matter whether he accrued them or not, his PTO is his to use. And he was denied that. He even stated that his manager was the one who stated to him that he had at least 20 days off: > When I joined, my manager told me exactly how many days I have: "federal holidays + 20 days", which is considered "quite generous for the US" (exact quotes) So it's not even on him that he thinks he's earned 20 days. What difference does it make if he 'earned' his PTO vs using his 'unlimited' PTO? I don't understand why this distinction is being made in the context of the article. If it's just to say that companies can deny PTO because it's not federally protected, well, that's an even bigger problem. Maybe it should right? Either way it makes the company look bad.
  - denverkarma 5y ago
    I agree with you about how it looks reading only this persons story. However, my experience with Atlassian was that taking PTO is no problem, and normally a request like this would not have met pushback. From what I know of the situation, there was a lot more to it than this.

LeifCarrotson 5y ago

Um, yes, of course you have to ask for time off. How else would it work - you'd just tell your manager that you weren't coming in and then not show up and your tasks wouldn't get done? That seems ludicrous, you'd be fired, good luck getting anything you left in your desk drawers back. I'm fortunate now to work at a place where if I had to take time off for a medical emergency or paternity leave I could call and explain and it would almost definitely be granted, they might ask for some email support or phone calls to offload my tasks to someone else... but you still have to ask.

0xffff2 5y ago
> you'd just tell your manager that you weren't coming in and then not show up and your tasks wouldn't get done? Yes, exactly. That's how it works in my organization. You don't schedule tasks when you're going to be out of the office. If they're time critical, someone else will pick them up (and drop less time critical tasks of their own). If they're not time critical, they just wait for your return. I recognize that I'm lucky to be in this situation, but it's certainly possible if you have a reasonable bus-factor.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Apes 5y ago

It's the "unlimited PTO" scam - tech companies figured out a loophole that lets them give their employees zero days of guaranteed PTO, doesn't require them to pay out for unused PTO days when an employee leaves, and is technically legal for meeting the minimum PTO laws in the US.

kayodelycaon 5y ago

I've worked at a place where use of PTO had to be authorized. If you were sick, you needed to get that approved a week before calling in. There was an exception if you had a doctor's note, but too many of those, note or not, you'd be fired. Using federally-protected unpaid leave would get you fired under some other pretense when you returned to work. At a different job, I was doing fine without accommodations until the new HR manage decided to get rid of flex time and require PTO to be taken in 8 hours blocks. Shortly after I applied for ADA accommodations, they took a few montsh to move me into a different department under a very specific role made for just for me. Then after a few months in that role, they cut the position. Finding another job wasn't an option. I had recently been diagnosed with bipolar and couldn't afford losing my insurance.