7 ms·

mullvad has a long history of proving itself as being a good faith actor in the space. it's also first to step into new technology and infrastructure because th

by risho 5y ago

mullvad has a long history of proving itself as being a good faith actor in the space. it's also first to step into new technology and infrastructure because they are truly interested and ideologically invested in what they are doing. they don't use accounts or collect email addresses. they accept cash in the mail no matter what you think about crypto they were probably one of if not the first companies in the world to start accepting bitcoin in 2010 and have always self hosted their infrastructure, not offloading it to bitpay or whatever other company that just funnels right into chain analysis companies. back then bitcoin was on the super fringe and the only people interested and involved in it where people that were ideologically aligned with it's vision. They started funding wireguard before it was cool and before anyone else gave a shit about wireguard. They are the backbone for mozilla's vpn. You can never REALLY be sure, but from what I can tell mullvad is the most honest and sincere vpn company in the space and I wouldn't even consider going anywhere else.

EthOptimist 5y ago
So the main thing risk would be if they are consistently logging things such as client IP, user agent etc.
slg 5y ago
>no matter what you think about crypto they were probably one of if not the first companies in the world to start accepting bitcoin in 2010 I remember spending north of 25 bitcoins on a month of Mullvad back in those days. I don't remember the exact price, but I do remember mining a single 50 bitcoin block was not enough to purchase 2 months. That is at least $1.2m a month for VPN service if we use today's prices. If they actually held on to any of the bitcoin from those days, I am guessing the company and the owners have no real financial motivation to sell.
- rootsudo 5y ago
  ouch, and geez, and ouch. Same boat with hosting services. 100% relatable.
- Fnoord 5y ago
  > [...] I am guessing the company and the owners have no real financial motivation to sell. This makes no sense. We don't know what the future of Bitcoin's market cap is going to do. That's why it is speculation. Personally, I don't see the point of holding any cryptocurrency I own.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    Why would you “[…]” the first part of the sentence that explains exactly why it could have made sense?
    - Fnoord 5y ago
      Not really. Say I buy Bitcoins in 2012 and sell them in 2014. I paid the very market value in 2012, and received the very market value in 2014. All this 'regret' with 'hindsight 20/20' fails to take into account that one cannot know how the market value is going to be in 1 month, 1 year, or any time table. That is why its speculation.
      - godelski 5y ago
        The above comment doesn't really come down to speculation though. It really just depends how much of that BTC they turned into cash to buy infrastructure or pay people. Considering that it is logistically easier to do this with just money rather than exchanging, then it isn't unlikely that they maintained a fair amount of that BTC, and thus the "they probably have a bunch of money" conclusion. I'm not sure why FOMO has to do with any of this. Your logic also just doesn't make sense when talking about any investment. If the market value goes up and you continue to hold then you can sell it for more than you bought it for. No one is talking about regret here except you. All investing is speculative. That's the nature of investing.
        Y_Y 5y ago
        All investing involves some speculation, that's true. But gold and t-bills and startup equity and shitcoins all involve very different kinds of speculation.
- IgorPartola 5y ago
  I remember spending $20 on a plain medium cheese pizza in 2010. If only I instead bought BTC with that $20 and held it until today. What exactly is the difference between our scenarios?
  - haliskerbas 5y ago
    “It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all.” The commenter you are replying to, had and sold, but you never had at all.
    - IgorPartola 5y ago
      I had and sold at $1k/BTC. Thought I made out like a bandit considering what I paid for BTC/had mined it using free resources. But my point stands: the idea that just because you had BTC at some point doesn’t really negate the fact that you had no prior knowledge. If you did, I bet you would have spent all your money and took out huge loans to buy more BTC at $2 or even $0.20. It’s a fallacy to think that just because you actually converted $ to BTC that somehow makes your lost opportunity cost more special than if you just held/spent $.
photochemsyn 5y ago
#3 "We do use a third party to operate our email service, so we remind you to carefully read #1 again." #1 "If privacy is of utmost concern, we recommend that you refrain from communicating any personal data to us since plain-text email is not a safe media for communication. If necessary, use PGP-encrypted email." So, it sounds like emails are stored on a third-party server, encrypted or not? This is sort of unavoidable for email as I understand it.
- ajklsdhfniuwehf 5y ago
  most email protocol depends on plain text changing hands along the way. if you care about privacy and even considers plain text email... i don't even know what to suggest you.
- risho 5y ago
  sorry when i say they dont collect emails, i mean they don't collect your email address. they don't know your email when you use their service. your "username" is just a random string of numbers. there is no email. there is no password. i dont know anything about how they store their personal email stuff. since they don't have my email address and i've never needed to send them an email, i'm not particularly worried about it. i should have been more clear though (and i updated my original comment to reflect this)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- gumby 5y ago
  > So, it sounds like emails are stored on a third-party serve...This is sort of unavoidable for email as I understand it. They don’t have to store the mail on a third party server. Email is by definition stored, at least until you retrieve it, so that’s unavoidable. They could use some public key scheme where they encrypt incoming mail and only the user could decrypt it, but it definitely would be a lot of work. A read buffer’s worth of plaintext would exist briefly in their server’s RAM. I suspect this is more work than any but a tiny number of users would want to deal with.
flotzam 5y ago
They have the most anonymity-friendly signup flow I've ever seen: 1. Literally click a button on the homepage 2. Here are the automatically generated credentials for your new account, which you can load up by sending any amount of cryptocurrency (perfect for emptying out an old wallet) I don't even bother renewing, that's how easy it is to make a fresh throwaway. Which they encourage!
ipaddr 5y ago
Can you expand on: "bitpay or whatever other company that just funnels right into chain analysis companies" Is that risk with bitpay? Curious to learn more about chain analysis I thought they would analysis all transaction..
- Mengkudulangsat 5y ago
  Service providers and exchanges are required to abide by the new travel rule imposed by the FATF. They simply can't facilitate any transactions that's on a no-name basis.
hammock 5y ago
Mullvad is THE ONLY mainstream VPN that doesn't have seriously questionable credibility. Not even Proton VPN is OK - sleuths have figured out that it's just a white-labeled version of NordVPN. I am thankful that Mullvad is doubling down on their commitment to integrity, because there isn't an alternative.
- intsunny 5y ago
  > Not even Proton VPN is OK - sleuths have figured out that it's just a white-labeled version of NordVPN. Do you have links to this evidence/proof?
  - icelancer 5y ago
    I agree. I have never heard this and it seems unlikely to be true - would appreciate posting research on this.
    - hammock 5y ago
      It's a rabbithole, and you might not be personally satisfied with the standard of evidence. Here is a start for you: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23571653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23571653 And since the link to [2] in what I linked above is broken, here is the archived version: https://archive.is/iZ2l2 https://archive.is/iZ2l2
  - hammock 5y ago
    See my child comment below.
- Ms-J 5y ago
  There are definitely alternatives. Not sure if some people are just less exposed to the entire market and are unaware that there are choices out there. I don't use Mullvad just because of how large they are.
  - hammock 5y ago
sillysaurusx 5y ago
Excuse the ignorance, but what do they do when LEO knocks and asks "At 2:34am CST, we saw IP address <x.y.z.w> downloaded child porn. Who was it?" They just say "We don't know"? Aren't there consequences for letting people download illegal content via your servers? It seems likely that they would say "At 2:43am CST, the IP address proxying <x.y.z.w> was <your actual IP>," at which point LEO would knock on your ISP's door. Right? I think it's totally crazy (as in actually-insane) to trust your life to these services. You're right, you can't really be sure. And if you're in a situation where you need to protect your identity, you're already caught.
- int_19h 5y ago
  Take a look at https://mullvad.net/en/help/swedish-legislation/ https://mullvad.net/en/help/swedish-legislation/
  - sillysaurusx 5y ago
    Thanks! I didn’t expect to be retracting my claims, but I retract my claims. I wouldn’t trust my life to it, and I still think it would be crazy to. But if I ever need a VPN, I’ll go with mullvad.
    - silexia 5y ago
      Wow, I have been looking for a service like this.

by risho 5y ago

EthOptimist 5y ago

So the main thing risk would be if they are consistently logging things such as client IP, user agent etc.

slg 5y ago

>no matter what you think about crypto they were probably one of if not the first companies in the world to start accepting bitcoin in 2010 I remember spending north of 25 bitcoins on a month of Mullvad back in those days. I don't remember the exact price, but I do remember mining a single 50 bitcoin block was not enough to purchase 2 months. That is at least $1.2m a month for VPN service if we use today's prices. If they actually held on to any of the bitcoin from those days, I am guessing the company and the owners have no real financial motivation to sell.

rootsudo 5y ago
ouch, and geez, and ouch. Same boat with hosting services. 100% relatable.
Fnoord 5y ago
> [...] I am guessing the company and the owners have no real financial motivation to sell. This makes no sense. We don't know what the future of Bitcoin's market cap is going to do. That's why it is speculation. Personally, I don't see the point of holding any cryptocurrency I own.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  Why would you “[…]” the first part of the sentence that explains exactly why it could have made sense?
  - Fnoord 5y ago
    Not really. Say I buy Bitcoins in 2012 and sell them in 2014. I paid the very market value in 2012, and received the very market value in 2014. All this 'regret' with 'hindsight 20/20' fails to take into account that one cannot know how the market value is going to be in 1 month, 1 year, or any time table. That is why its speculation.
    - godelski 5y ago
      The above comment doesn't really come down to speculation though. It really just depends how much of that BTC they turned into cash to buy infrastructure or pay people. Considering that it is logistically easier to do this with just money rather than exchanging, then it isn't unlikely that they maintained a fair amount of that BTC, and thus the "they probably have a bunch of money" conclusion. I'm not sure why FOMO has to do with any of this. Your logic also just doesn't make sense when talking about any investment. If the market value goes up and you continue to hold then you can sell it for more than you bought it for. No one is talking about regret here except you. All investing is speculative. That's the nature of investing.
      - Y_Y 5y ago
        All investing involves some speculation, that's true. But gold and t-bills and startup equity and shitcoins all involve very different kinds of speculation.
IgorPartola 5y ago
I remember spending $20 on a plain medium cheese pizza in 2010. If only I instead bought BTC with that $20 and held it until today. What exactly is the difference between our scenarios?
- haliskerbas 5y ago
  “It is better to have loved and lost than to have never loved at all.” The commenter you are replying to, had and sold, but you never had at all.
  - IgorPartola 5y ago
    I had and sold at $1k/BTC. Thought I made out like a bandit considering what I paid for BTC/had mined it using free resources. But my point stands: the idea that just because you had BTC at some point doesn’t really negate the fact that you had no prior knowledge. If you did, I bet you would have spent all your money and took out huge loans to buy more BTC at $2 or even $0.20. It’s a fallacy to think that just because you actually converted $ to BTC that somehow makes your lost opportunity cost more special than if you just held/spent $.

photochemsyn 5y ago

#3 "We do use a third party to operate our email service, so we remind you to carefully read #1 again." #1 "If privacy is of utmost concern, we recommend that you refrain from communicating any personal data to us since plain-text email is not a safe media for communication. If necessary, use PGP-encrypted email." So, it sounds like emails are stored on a third-party server, encrypted or not? This is sort of unavoidable for email as I understand it.

ajklsdhfniuwehf 5y ago
most email protocol depends on plain text changing hands along the way. if you care about privacy and even considers plain text email... i don't even know what to suggest you.
risho 5y ago
sorry when i say they dont collect emails, i mean they don't collect your email address. they don't know your email when you use their service. your "username" is just a random string of numbers. there is no email. there is no password. i dont know anything about how they store their personal email stuff. since they don't have my email address and i've never needed to send them an email, i'm not particularly worried about it. i should have been more clear though (and i updated my original comment to reflect this)
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gumby 5y ago
> So, it sounds like emails are stored on a third-party serve...This is sort of unavoidable for email as I understand it. They don’t have to store the mail on a third party server. Email is by definition stored, at least until you retrieve it, so that’s unavoidable. They could use some public key scheme where they encrypt incoming mail and only the user could decrypt it, but it definitely would be a lot of work. A read buffer’s worth of plaintext would exist briefly in their server’s RAM. I suspect this is more work than any but a tiny number of users would want to deal with.

flotzam 5y ago

They have the most anonymity-friendly signup flow I've ever seen: 1. Literally click a button on the homepage 2. Here are the automatically generated credentials for your new account, which you can load up by sending any amount of cryptocurrency (perfect for emptying out an old wallet) I don't even bother renewing, that's how easy it is to make a fresh throwaway. Which they encourage!

ipaddr 5y ago

Can you expand on: "bitpay or whatever other company that just funnels right into chain analysis companies" Is that risk with bitpay? Curious to learn more about chain analysis I thought they would analysis all transaction..

Mengkudulangsat 5y ago
Service providers and exchanges are required to abide by the new travel rule imposed by the FATF. They simply can't facilitate any transactions that's on a no-name basis.

hammock 5y ago

Mullvad is THE ONLY mainstream VPN that doesn't have seriously questionable credibility. Not even Proton VPN is OK - sleuths have figured out that it's just a white-labeled version of NordVPN. I am thankful that Mullvad is doubling down on their commitment to integrity, because there isn't an alternative.

intsunny 5y ago
> Not even Proton VPN is OK - sleuths have figured out that it's just a white-labeled version of NordVPN. Do you have links to this evidence/proof?
- icelancer 5y ago
  I agree. I have never heard this and it seems unlikely to be true - would appreciate posting research on this.
  - hammock 5y ago
    It's a rabbithole, and you might not be personally satisfied with the standard of evidence. Here is a start for you: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23571653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23571653 And since the link to [2] in what I linked above is broken, here is the archived version: https://archive.is/iZ2l2 https://archive.is/iZ2l2
- hammock 5y ago
  See my child comment below.
Ms-J 5y ago
There are definitely alternatives. Not sure if some people are just less exposed to the entire market and are unaware that there are choices out there. I don't use Mullvad just because of how large they are.
- hammock 5y ago

sillysaurusx 5y ago

Excuse the ignorance, but what do they do when LEO knocks and asks "At 2:34am CST, we saw IP address <x.y.z.w> downloaded child porn. Who was it?" They just say "We don't know"? Aren't there consequences for letting people download illegal content via your servers? It seems likely that they would say "At 2:43am CST, the IP address proxying <x.y.z.w> was <your actual IP>," at which point LEO would knock on your ISP's door. Right? I think it's totally crazy (as in actually-insane) to trust your life to these services. You're right, you can't really be sure. And if you're in a situation where you need to protect your identity, you're already caught.

int_19h 5y ago
Take a look at https://mullvad.net/en/help/swedish-legislation/ https://mullvad.net/en/help/swedish-legislation/
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  Thanks! I didn’t expect to be retracting my claims, but I retract my claims. I wouldn’t trust my life to it, and I still think it would be crazy to. But if I ever need a VPN, I’ll go with mullvad.
  - silexia 5y ago
    Wow, I have been looking for a service like this.