9 ms·

iOS on QEMU

358 points by logix 5y ago

zamadatix 5y ago
The "this blogpost" link about KVM has the wrong domain, https://alephsecurity.com/2020/07/19/xnu-qemu-kvm/ https://alephsecurity.com/2020/07/19/xnu-qemu-kvm/ for the post.
hwers 5y ago
The insane amount of effort this must have required boggles my mind.
run-types 5y ago
WOW! That's insane. If made efficiently enough, you could emulate iOS on a non-iOS mobile device. That would be disruptive.
- unix_fan 5y ago
  And also very easy to brake on apple's end.
  - lostgame 5y ago
    Only for future releases. If it works currently for iOS 12, it'll keep working for those builds of iOS 12. I fail to see how Apple can break what already works for code they can't/won't change.
    - smoldesu 5y ago
      They have the power to disable your OS remotely for any reason. I think it's safe to say that ship has sailed.
    - gjsman-1000 5y ago
      No - like, Apple sends a DMCA complaint or legal complaints to the project and the developers saying to shut it down or they'll bring in the lawyers.
      - kingofclams 5y ago
        DMCA what? I don’t see anything wrong with emulation.
      - atatatat 5y ago
        Pirate Bay
      - amelius 5y ago
        That won't work in large parts of the world, like China.
- vegetablepotpie 5y ago
  Could give the librem 5 or PinePhone a big boost. But it would not help with battery life.
  - mattl 5y ago
    I think the number of people who have a Librem phone but want to run iOS on it is basically zero.
    - markstos 5y ago
      Wrong. There are people who would like hardware kill switches but are required to run either iOS or Android apps for work. With iOS in a VM, you could truly "log out of work" and shutdown that part of your phone when not needed without carrying a second work-specific device.
      - atatatat 5y ago
        With a $150 GrapheneOS Pixel for things that matter, you could shut the other phone off and truly "shut off work".
        mattl 5y ago
        Yep. Just buy an anything-shitty Android phone in 7-11 and use that
legrande 5y ago
> If you are passionate about iOS and kernel exploitation So is the main use-case to find bugs in iOS or are there other major use-cases I'm not thinking about? The only other use case I can think of is setting up a click-farm, or paid-review farm where you give positive reviews for apps for a small fee.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kreetx 5y ago
  iOS developers could iterate on their code entirely in linux is probably the popular use case.
- m0rbz 5y ago
  I think he meant that those are the skills required to maintain the project, since iOS moves very fast and each major update breaks the virtualizer.
giancarlostoro 5y ago
This would be interesting to see, I'm guessing the implications are being able to build iOS projects without requiring a Mac at any stage of the development process.
- sneak 5y ago
  You'd need to emulate macOS hardware, not iOS, to do that. In that sense, what you describe is already possible (running Xcode in a macOS VM on commodity hardware).
  - nobleach 5y ago
    I did this exact think back in 2012 with a PhoneGap/Apache Cordova app. It had to use Xcode to run the app in the iOS Emulator. So I spun up a virtual machine on my Linux box. It worked extraordinarily well! In the case of the poster you are replying to. Yes, Swift is open source and there are compilers for other platforms. The problem comes in with Apple's SDK and their proprietary libraries. Those are what are required to build an app that'll run on an iOS device. Those only run on macOS/OSX.
    - Aspos 5y ago
      These days, unfortunately, it is not possible. Well, you can virtualize MacOs, but you can not connect iOS device to it, nor you can run a virtual iOS device inside it. Apple went out of its way to deliberately disable physical phones connecting to a virtual MacOS. Any other USB device can be connected, but not an iphone.
      - MichaEiler 5y ago
        VmWare Player with USB configured to version 2.0 did the trick for me. I tested it with an iPAD Pro and iOS 14. The VM was running the newest macOS release from a few months ago.
      - plorkyeran 5y ago
        We have iPhones connecting to macOS VMs for our CI system and have never had any issues with it?
easton 5y ago
There’s no graphics here, right? Will SpringBoard and friends start without a display?
- sneak 5y ago
  From the linked blog post: > No devices emulation: screen, touch, wifi, BT or anything else.
  - msk-lywenn 5y ago
    Looks like there is some screen emulation: https://twitter.com/JonathanAfek/status/1350000894784495617 https://twitter.com/JonathanAfek/status/1350000894784495617
fhackernewz 5y ago
bunch of faggot moderatpors
fhackernewz 5y ago
bunch of faggot moderators
trollied 5y ago
Previous thread from 18 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22870905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22870905 Latest blog post: https://alephsecurity.com/2020/07/19/xnu-qemu-kvm/ https://alephsecurity.com/2020/07/19/xnu-qemu-kvm/
ddtaylor 5y ago
> This project is a fork of the official QEMU repository Why isn't it _actually_ a fork though? I don't like when projects do this and don't actually make it a fork.
- colejohnson66 5y ago
  What do you mean?
  - Wingy 5y ago
    It wasn’t created as a GitHub fork
  - sebular 5y ago
    I'm assuming they mean it wasn't forked by clicking the "fork" button in GitHub, which creates a link at the top of the new forked repository page connecting it to the parent repository. It is a true fork though, both projects have the same commit history.
- arghwhat 5y ago
  This is _actually_ a fork. A fork is a separate repository sharing history with another. The GitHub UI's concept of a "fork" is unrelated to Git. GitHub doesn't detect you made a proper fork if you don't use its API or UI to do so, and requires contacting customer support to change it. Not worth the hazzle as it provides no benefit.
  - detaro 5y ago
    Also, QEMU upstream isn't on Github, so the notion is even more pointless.
    - seoaeu 5y ago
      QEMU does have an official mirror on github (https://github.com/qemu/qemu https://github.com/qemu/qemu) so I don't think it is that unreasonable
soheil 5y ago
I see in the instruction they're using iOS 12. Is it possible to run iOS 15? Does the image need to be jailbroken? Is there anything that allows to download and install iOS apps from the app store and run them?
hellowworld3423 5y ago
hr
elpakal 5y ago
Repo looks a little stale to me? I wonder how similar this is to the Xcode Cloud beta QEMU used by Apple someone spotted https://twitter.com/khaost/status/1410332951963869185?lang=en https://twitter.com/khaost/status/1410332951963869185?lang=e...
- tbodt 5y ago
  Unrelated, that one was developed entirely by apple
  - elpakal 5y ago
    curious how you know that
    - easton 5y ago
      Hypervisor.framework (and Virtualization.framework) in macOS run a Apple written hypervisor. This hypervisor implements VirtIO for its devices and can run macOS VMs (with full graphics and hardware acceleration, at least on the M1). One could conclude that it was implemented this way to allow compatibility for macOS on different hypervisors (and also so that Linux would just work on theirs). Speculation: I would be surprised if there isn’t a team internally working on a stripped down variant of macOS (or just Darwin + drivers?) designed for deployment as a server so that they can drop a bunch of racks of Mac Minis (or, with budget, some kind of blade arrangement with a Apple Silicon chip on it) into a datacenter and build a huge build farm (using VMs to run iOS and macOS, or jails if they ever get some kind of container setup). It would be dramatically better than having to manage x86 and all that extra bloat of average servers once you got through the growing pains. And they could guarantee security way better.
      - eptcyka 5y ago
        I think Apple's silicon runs a very high margin, I imagine. Will the savings from running datacenters on their own silicon be big enough to offset the lost opportunity of selling more M1?
therein 5y ago
I want to get Android or iOS on QEMU with USB passthrough so that I can isolate it and pass it its own modem. (say a Quectel modem via a miniPCIe to USB card) Is this possible as it stands? At least in bits and pieces I can put together?
- grishka 5y ago
  Android should definitely be possible. The emulator that comes with the SDK already uses QEMU under the hood.
  - therein 5y ago
    In that case I wonder if the guest OS would pick up the AT interface of the modem on /dev/ttyUSB0. Especially on an M1, perhaps running the arm builds wouldn't have too much overhead either, even though there are x86-64 images available as well.

358 points by logix 5y ago

The "this blogpost" link about KVM has the wrong domain, https://alephsecurity.com/2020/07/19/xnu-qemu-kvm/ https://alephsecurity.com/2020/07/19/xnu-qemu-kvm/ for the post.

hwers 5y ago

The insane amount of effort this must have required boggles my mind.

run-types 5y ago

WOW! That's insane. If made efficiently enough, you could emulate iOS on a non-iOS mobile device. That would be disruptive.

unix_fan 5y ago
And also very easy to brake on apple's end.
- lostgame 5y ago
  Only for future releases. If it works currently for iOS 12, it'll keep working for those builds of iOS 12. I fail to see how Apple can break what already works for code they can't/won't change.
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    They have the power to disable your OS remotely for any reason. I think it's safe to say that ship has sailed.
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    No - like, Apple sends a DMCA complaint or legal complaints to the project and the developers saying to shut it down or they'll bring in the lawyers.
    - kingofclams 5y ago
      DMCA what? I don’t see anything wrong with emulation.
    - atatatat 5y ago
      Pirate Bay
    - amelius 5y ago
      That won't work in large parts of the world, like China.
vegetablepotpie 5y ago
Could give the librem 5 or PinePhone a big boost. But it would not help with battery life.
- mattl 5y ago
  I think the number of people who have a Librem phone but want to run iOS on it is basically zero.
  - markstos 5y ago
    Wrong. There are people who would like hardware kill switches but are required to run either iOS or Android apps for work. With iOS in a VM, you could truly "log out of work" and shutdown that part of your phone when not needed without carrying a second work-specific device.
    - atatatat 5y ago
      With a $150 GrapheneOS Pixel for things that matter, you could shut the other phone off and truly "shut off work".
      - mattl 5y ago
        Yep. Just buy an anything-shitty Android phone in 7-11 and use that

legrande 5y ago

> If you are passionate about iOS and kernel exploitation So is the main use-case to find bugs in iOS or are there other major use-cases I'm not thinking about? The only other use case I can think of is setting up a click-farm, or paid-review farm where you give positive reviews for apps for a small fee.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kreetx 5y ago
iOS developers could iterate on their code entirely in linux is probably the popular use case.
m0rbz 5y ago
I think he meant that those are the skills required to maintain the project, since iOS moves very fast and each major update breaks the virtualizer.

giancarlostoro 5y ago

This would be interesting to see, I'm guessing the implications are being able to build iOS projects without requiring a Mac at any stage of the development process.

sneak 5y ago
You'd need to emulate macOS hardware, not iOS, to do that. In that sense, what you describe is already possible (running Xcode in a macOS VM on commodity hardware).
- nobleach 5y ago
  I did this exact think back in 2012 with a PhoneGap/Apache Cordova app. It had to use Xcode to run the app in the iOS Emulator. So I spun up a virtual machine on my Linux box. It worked extraordinarily well! In the case of the poster you are replying to. Yes, Swift is open source and there are compilers for other platforms. The problem comes in with Apple's SDK and their proprietary libraries. Those are what are required to build an app that'll run on an iOS device. Those only run on macOS/OSX.
  - Aspos 5y ago
    These days, unfortunately, it is not possible. Well, you can virtualize MacOs, but you can not connect iOS device to it, nor you can run a virtual iOS device inside it. Apple went out of its way to deliberately disable physical phones connecting to a virtual MacOS. Any other USB device can be connected, but not an iphone.
    - MichaEiler 5y ago
      VmWare Player with USB configured to version 2.0 did the trick for me. I tested it with an iPAD Pro and iOS 14. The VM was running the newest macOS release from a few months ago.
    - plorkyeran 5y ago
      We have iPhones connecting to macOS VMs for our CI system and have never had any issues with it?

easton 5y ago

There’s no graphics here, right? Will SpringBoard and friends start without a display?

sneak 5y ago
From the linked blog post: > No devices emulation: screen, touch, wifi, BT or anything else.
- msk-lywenn 5y ago
  Looks like there is some screen emulation: https://twitter.com/JonathanAfek/status/1350000894784495617 https://twitter.com/JonathanAfek/status/1350000894784495617

fhackernewz 5y ago

bunch of faggot moderatpors

fhackernewz 5y ago

bunch of faggot moderators

trollied 5y ago

Previous thread from 18 months ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22870905 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22870905 Latest blog post: https://alephsecurity.com/2020/07/19/xnu-qemu-kvm/ https://alephsecurity.com/2020/07/19/xnu-qemu-kvm/

ddtaylor 5y ago

> This project is a fork of the official QEMU repository Why isn't it _actually_ a fork though? I don't like when projects do this and don't actually make it a fork.

colejohnson66 5y ago
What do you mean?
- Wingy 5y ago
  It wasn’t created as a GitHub fork
- sebular 5y ago
  I'm assuming they mean it wasn't forked by clicking the "fork" button in GitHub, which creates a link at the top of the new forked repository page connecting it to the parent repository. It is a true fork though, both projects have the same commit history.
arghwhat 5y ago
This is _actually_ a fork. A fork is a separate repository sharing history with another. The GitHub UI's concept of a "fork" is unrelated to Git. GitHub doesn't detect you made a proper fork if you don't use its API or UI to do so, and requires contacting customer support to change it. Not worth the hazzle as it provides no benefit.
- detaro 5y ago
  Also, QEMU upstream isn't on Github, so the notion is even more pointless.
  - seoaeu 5y ago
    QEMU does have an official mirror on github (https://github.com/qemu/qemu https://github.com/qemu/qemu) so I don't think it is that unreasonable

soheil 5y ago

I see in the instruction they're using iOS 12. Is it possible to run iOS 15? Does the image need to be jailbroken? Is there anything that allows to download and install iOS apps from the app store and run them?

hellowworld3423 5y ago

elpakal 5y ago

Repo looks a little stale to me? I wonder how similar this is to the Xcode Cloud beta QEMU used by Apple someone spotted https://twitter.com/khaost/status/1410332951963869185?lang=en https://twitter.com/khaost/status/1410332951963869185?lang=e...

tbodt 5y ago
Unrelated, that one was developed entirely by apple
- elpakal 5y ago
  curious how you know that
  - easton 5y ago
    Hypervisor.framework (and Virtualization.framework) in macOS run a Apple written hypervisor. This hypervisor implements VirtIO for its devices and can run macOS VMs (with full graphics and hardware acceleration, at least on the M1). One could conclude that it was implemented this way to allow compatibility for macOS on different hypervisors (and also so that Linux would just work on theirs). Speculation: I would be surprised if there isn’t a team internally working on a stripped down variant of macOS (or just Darwin + drivers?) designed for deployment as a server so that they can drop a bunch of racks of Mac Minis (or, with budget, some kind of blade arrangement with a Apple Silicon chip on it) into a datacenter and build a huge build farm (using VMs to run iOS and macOS, or jails if they ever get some kind of container setup). It would be dramatically better than having to manage x86 and all that extra bloat of average servers once you got through the growing pains. And they could guarantee security way better.
    - eptcyka 5y ago
      I think Apple's silicon runs a very high margin, I imagine. Will the savings from running datacenters on their own silicon be big enough to offset the lost opportunity of selling more M1?

therein 5y ago

I want to get Android or iOS on QEMU with USB passthrough so that I can isolate it and pass it its own modem. (say a Quectel modem via a miniPCIe to USB card) Is this possible as it stands? At least in bits and pieces I can put together?

grishka 5y ago
Android should definitely be possible. The emulator that comes with the SDK already uses QEMU under the hood.
- therein 5y ago
  In that case I wonder if the guest OS would pick up the AT interface of the modem on /dev/ttyUSB0. Especially on an M1, perhaps running the arm builds wouldn't have too much overhead either, even though there are x86-64 images available as well.