6 ms·

> Fires destroying electric bike shops are a thing, with one fire expanding to all the batteries around. All we need now is for a cascade auto battery fire in a

> Fires destroying electric bike shops are a thing, with one fire expanding to all the batteries around. All we need now is for a cascade auto battery fire in a parking lot. Or, worst case, a garage under a building. As a firefighter let me add some context: Electric car fires are no big deal anymore. Yes, they're not "out" when there's no more flames or smoke for the moment as the damaged cells might be reacting further and further. Easy solution: Put them in a tub full of water for at least 24 hours, better monitor the temperatures of the water and only lift them out once it has not changed for a few hours. Most fire departments nowadays have some kind of container that can be filled where you can lift the car into. If not, they'll call somebody who has such a container, like landfills and alike. Yes, the car is done after that, but it wouldn't be different with a gas-powered car either. This might have been new five years ago, but so were solar panels 20 years ago and everybody was worried that nobody could ever extinguish a fire under solar panels. Real life has shown, that you just rip the panels of the roof (if they're not already burned when we arrive) and work as if nothing has happened (simplified, but not too far away). With eletric cars you sink them. Easy as that. "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome." it is. Also: garage fires are special in itself due to the lack of head room and "place to go" for heat, smoke and fire. It's not really a big difference after that. Basic rules of engagement are to be followed: Get the fire out and then the cars out of the garage. WIth electric cars you'll have to sink them once they are out of the garage, obviously. Please stop fearmongering with "electric car fires".

mschuster91 5y ago
They do require a lot more water to be put out though. > "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome." it is. And here is the problem: most fire departments are horribly underfunded, meaning their machines are old, water tankers don't have enough capacity, water lines are un(der)maintained and the firefighter training has been ... spotty to put it lightly.
- martin_a 5y ago
  Don't know where you're from, but for Germany this is mostly solved, but those tactics are obviously still "new" for most and need to be refined, yes. edit: > They do require a lot more water to be put out though. As OP was mentioning garage fires, I was expecting urban neighborhoods, where getting enough water should (hopefully) not be a problem in 2021.
  - jfk13 5y ago
    I see you haven't lived in a mega-city like Karachi. When I lived there (some years ago, admittedly, but I don't believe things have improved much) we were lucky to get mains water for a few hours a couple of times a week at some seasons.
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    > Don't know where you're from, but for Germany this is mostly solved German here as well. For the Berufsfeuerwehr (for the Americans here: professional, full-time firefighters in big cities) yes, for Freiwillige Feuerwehr (volunteers, mostly in rural areas) not, which has been the subject of numerous media articles (e.g. https://kommunal.de/feuerwehr-fehlen-einsatzkraefte https://kommunal.de/feuerwehr-fehlen-einsatzkraefte). > As OP was mentioning garage fires, I was expecting urban neighborhoods, where getting enough water should (hopefully) not be a problem in 2021. I was talking about electric car fires in general... and in rural areas, that is a problem (see e.g. https://www.nordkurier.de/uckermark/kontaminiertes-wasser-bei-e-auto-braenden-0941672212.html https://www.nordkurier.de/uckermark/kontaminiertes-wasser-be...). Anyway I'm not interested in fearmongering, just pointing out that even in Germany the situation isn't as decent as one might hope - and the US is even worse off.
mietek 5y ago
What is the problem with solar panels and fires? What happens when a house with a Tesla Solar Roof is on fire?
- Lev1a 5y ago
  From my recollection of a documentary I watched a few years ago: You can cut power to the burning building if the fire hasn't already destroyed the circuit(s) itself, solar panels though are not bound to the utilities thus can't be shut off remotely and could give electric shocks to the firefighters/left-over occupants. IIRC there were some nasty accidents that happened like this.
- martin_a 5y ago
  > What is the problem with solar panels and fires? What happens when a house with a Tesla Solar Roof is on fire? When solar panels were new, firefighters were afraid, that classic methods will no longer work and that lots of houses would burn down, because the solar panels would be a solid, impenetrable "shield" against the water from the outside. Turns out that solar panels will melt due to the heat before the firefighters arrive (for large fires where you have to extinguish from the outside), have killswitches, can be ripped from the roof when using a ladder and a wooden pole with a hook at the end... In the end it was just fear of this new and rather unknown technology. Also tactics have evolved. Your main path to the fire will be from the inside, especially for normal housing fires, as you want to get as close als possible to the fire so you'll have to use as little water as possible. This lead to a steep decline in the use of "attacks from the outside". Those will only be necessary for very large fires. In that case the panels are often gone, as already mentioned, or the house is a total loss, so destroying the panels forcefully is not that bad if you really need to do it. Tesla Solar roofs will probably behave like any other panel/tile and can be penetrated with the right equipment or will break down by themselves as a result of excessive amounts of heat. I don't see big problems here.
ikurei 5y ago
> Electric car fires are no big deal anymore. > Easy solution: Put them in a tub full of water for at least 24 hours How is this not a big deal? This forces firefighters, which sometimes are small departments without a lot of resources, to transport the cars. It's a nuissance if it's 1 car, but a parking lot caching fire would be an absolute nightmare. If a car catches fire in a narrow street in the middle of a city, and it jumps to just a few more cars, you may have a massive issue. It's great that you guys have adapted to this, and I'm sure we will learn how to make battery powered cars safer. This is the early-ish stages of a new technology, which are always rocky times... but it is still a big deal which shows how early it still is, which would be fine if we didn't need to stop using gas ASAP. PD: I tried not to sound snarky but I may have failed. I intended no snark. I'm actually asking, how can this not be a big deal? Because it sounds like a big deal to me.
- gameswithgo 5y ago
  firefighters are tough people, they had procedures for gasoline fires, now they have them for electric fires. not a big deal.
- martin_a 5y ago
  > How is this not a big deal? First of all sorry for my English, I sometimes fail to find the right words, so it's sometimes hard to explain what I mean. It's not a big deal in the sense that you'll call the control/dispatch center and tell them that you'll need a tub for an EV. They'll then take care of getting it to you and that's what firefighters worry about. How the car leaves the place? None of the firefighters' business, at least here in Germany. Of course there are lots of things in the aftermath like how to recycle the water from that tub as it might be contaminated and needs special treatment, but that's a problem for someone else and possibly already solved somehow. > but a parking lot caching fire Yeah, that would be shit, but it could also happen today with gas-powered cars. I've experienced something similar myself once with a used car sales lot. It was somewhat frightening as the fire spread to multiple cars very fast because of the large amounts of heat. In the end we concentrated on cooling the unburnt cars at first, and only as a second measure slowly fighting and extinguishing the ones that already caught fire when reinforcements (lots of!) had arrived. Would you handle it differently with EVs? Yes, probably, you'd also need lots of tubs. Would it be completely differently? No. Cars are, once burning, very nasty to extinguish, no matter how they are powered. I wouldn't fear an EV more than a gas-powered car if I would get called right now.
raxxorrax 5y ago
Well, if the manufacturer says I should park my car 15m away from others due to spontaneous fire risk...
- martin_a 5y ago
  I don't understand this at all. Right now I'm in the second recall with my Hyundai Kona EV. They have found that there might be a problem with the battery packs, so ALL Kona get a new one where the bug is fixed. Might take its time till they are done, but they did not tell me to park near a river or something, in case the car catches fire. So either GM is even more cautious or just stupid.
  - WorldMaker 5y ago
    Given GM's history between recall lawsuits in the past and "activist" shareholders in the present, I'd lean way more towards "more cautious". GM is an American company more prone to certain types of US lawsuits than other manufacturers and a lot of their PR has always been full of CYA, and also currently in a multi-year battle against some shareholders trying to intentionally tank GM's electric efforts (presumably so that Tesla "wins"?).

mschuster91 5y ago

They do require a lot more water to be put out though. > "Improvise. Adapt. Overcome." it is. And here is the problem: most fire departments are horribly underfunded, meaning their machines are old, water tankers don't have enough capacity, water lines are un(der)maintained and the firefighter training has been ... spotty to put it lightly.

martin_a 5y ago
Don't know where you're from, but for Germany this is mostly solved, but those tactics are obviously still "new" for most and need to be refined, yes. edit: > They do require a lot more water to be put out though. As OP was mentioning garage fires, I was expecting urban neighborhoods, where getting enough water should (hopefully) not be a problem in 2021.
- jfk13 5y ago
  I see you haven't lived in a mega-city like Karachi. When I lived there (some years ago, admittedly, but I don't believe things have improved much) we were lucky to get mains water for a few hours a couple of times a week at some seasons.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  > Don't know where you're from, but for Germany this is mostly solved German here as well. For the Berufsfeuerwehr (for the Americans here: professional, full-time firefighters in big cities) yes, for Freiwillige Feuerwehr (volunteers, mostly in rural areas) not, which has been the subject of numerous media articles (e.g. https://kommunal.de/feuerwehr-fehlen-einsatzkraefte https://kommunal.de/feuerwehr-fehlen-einsatzkraefte). > As OP was mentioning garage fires, I was expecting urban neighborhoods, where getting enough water should (hopefully) not be a problem in 2021. I was talking about electric car fires in general... and in rural areas, that is a problem (see e.g. https://www.nordkurier.de/uckermark/kontaminiertes-wasser-bei-e-auto-braenden-0941672212.html https://www.nordkurier.de/uckermark/kontaminiertes-wasser-be...). Anyway I'm not interested in fearmongering, just pointing out that even in Germany the situation isn't as decent as one might hope - and the US is even worse off.

mietek 5y ago

What is the problem with solar panels and fires? What happens when a house with a Tesla Solar Roof is on fire?

Lev1a 5y ago
From my recollection of a documentary I watched a few years ago: You can cut power to the burning building if the fire hasn't already destroyed the circuit(s) itself, solar panels though are not bound to the utilities thus can't be shut off remotely and could give electric shocks to the firefighters/left-over occupants. IIRC there were some nasty accidents that happened like this.
martin_a 5y ago
> What is the problem with solar panels and fires? What happens when a house with a Tesla Solar Roof is on fire? When solar panels were new, firefighters were afraid, that classic methods will no longer work and that lots of houses would burn down, because the solar panels would be a solid, impenetrable "shield" against the water from the outside. Turns out that solar panels will melt due to the heat before the firefighters arrive (for large fires where you have to extinguish from the outside), have killswitches, can be ripped from the roof when using a ladder and a wooden pole with a hook at the end... In the end it was just fear of this new and rather unknown technology. Also tactics have evolved. Your main path to the fire will be from the inside, especially for normal housing fires, as you want to get as close als possible to the fire so you'll have to use as little water as possible. This lead to a steep decline in the use of "attacks from the outside". Those will only be necessary for very large fires. In that case the panels are often gone, as already mentioned, or the house is a total loss, so destroying the panels forcefully is not that bad if you really need to do it. Tesla Solar roofs will probably behave like any other panel/tile and can be penetrated with the right equipment or will break down by themselves as a result of excessive amounts of heat. I don't see big problems here.

ikurei 5y ago

> Electric car fires are no big deal anymore. > Easy solution: Put them in a tub full of water for at least 24 hours How is this not a big deal? This forces firefighters, which sometimes are small departments without a lot of resources, to transport the cars. It's a nuissance if it's 1 car, but a parking lot caching fire would be an absolute nightmare. If a car catches fire in a narrow street in the middle of a city, and it jumps to just a few more cars, you may have a massive issue. It's great that you guys have adapted to this, and I'm sure we will learn how to make battery powered cars safer. This is the early-ish stages of a new technology, which are always rocky times... but it is still a big deal which shows how early it still is, which would be fine if we didn't need to stop using gas ASAP. PD: I tried not to sound snarky but I may have failed. I intended no snark. I'm actually asking, how can this not be a big deal? Because it sounds like a big deal to me.

gameswithgo 5y ago
firefighters are tough people, they had procedures for gasoline fires, now they have them for electric fires. not a big deal.
martin_a 5y ago
> How is this not a big deal? First of all sorry for my English, I sometimes fail to find the right words, so it's sometimes hard to explain what I mean. It's not a big deal in the sense that you'll call the control/dispatch center and tell them that you'll need a tub for an EV. They'll then take care of getting it to you and that's what firefighters worry about. How the car leaves the place? None of the firefighters' business, at least here in Germany. Of course there are lots of things in the aftermath like how to recycle the water from that tub as it might be contaminated and needs special treatment, but that's a problem for someone else and possibly already solved somehow. > but a parking lot caching fire Yeah, that would be shit, but it could also happen today with gas-powered cars. I've experienced something similar myself once with a used car sales lot. It was somewhat frightening as the fire spread to multiple cars very fast because of the large amounts of heat. In the end we concentrated on cooling the unburnt cars at first, and only as a second measure slowly fighting and extinguishing the ones that already caught fire when reinforcements (lots of!) had arrived. Would you handle it differently with EVs? Yes, probably, you'd also need lots of tubs. Would it be completely differently? No. Cars are, once burning, very nasty to extinguish, no matter how they are powered. I wouldn't fear an EV more than a gas-powered car if I would get called right now.

raxxorrax 5y ago

Well, if the manufacturer says I should park my car 15m away from others due to spontaneous fire risk...

martin_a 5y ago
I don't understand this at all. Right now I'm in the second recall with my Hyundai Kona EV. They have found that there might be a problem with the battery packs, so ALL Kona get a new one where the bug is fixed. Might take its time till they are done, but they did not tell me to park near a river or something, in case the car catches fire. So either GM is even more cautious or just stupid.
- WorldMaker 5y ago
  Given GM's history between recall lawsuits in the past and "activist" shareholders in the present, I'd lean way more towards "more cautious". GM is an American company more prone to certain types of US lawsuits than other manufacturers and a lot of their PR has always been full of CYA, and also currently in a multi-year battle against some shareholders trying to intentionally tank GM's electric efforts (presumably so that Tesla "wins"?).