5 ms·

They reference Automattic's hiring process, which is an interview (90mins), take home coding (6hrs) and a paid project (40hrs). That essentially makes hiring a

They reference Automattic's hiring process, which is an interview (90mins), take home coding (6hrs) and a paid project (40hrs). That essentially makes hiring a serial process for the candidate. All you are selecting for is people who really really want to work for you. I see software as a form of literacy. How do people hire writers?

yosito 5y ago
I think it's the 6 hour take home coding that's a problem. I would suspect that when hiring writers, they look at a sample of the writer's past work and don't require the writer to spend 6 hours writing a sample children's book.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Would be nice to have an example. 6h/40h software development doesn't really say much about scope and is highly dependent on your experience with the tools necessary to perform the task.
- thinkharderdev 5y ago
  The 40h paid project also seems kind of crazy to me. It is nice that is is paid but almost every software engineer I have ever interviewed already had a full-time job and was looking to switch. Where are they supposed to find 40h to work on a side-project even if it is paid? Is the idea that you are supposed to quit your current job first before interviewing?
  - aix1 5y ago
    > Where are they supposed to find 40h to work on a side-project even if it is paid? On top of that, taking on paid outside work in the same field could also be contrary to the candidate's contract with their existing employer[*]. [*] This no doubt depends on the employer and the jurisdiction.
    - lifeisstillgood 5y ago
      Of course !
- yawaworht1978 5y ago
  I had both a full day on site JS programming(css optional) and a 20hr take home reactJS exercise besides all the precious onboarding stuff, pretty crazy effort, for both parties, time is money. For one I had to take a day off, the other i did over a weekend. Another thing I have realized, all the jobs valued php and bit SQL more as basic knowledge for web dev than any nodeJS/MongoDB even if it's just front end, they want some back end understanding. Had some nodeJS things that generated all the front end via express , including chat module and sign up/log in flow, but either it was overlooked or not valued, any 5 minute to do list or crud with anything front end JS seemed more important. I suppose few dare to touch the node ecosystem and nosql databases. And the most recent one asked me if I can do their front end in react(really overkill, no need), told them I'll do it in vanilla JS, but nope, he insisted on react and that was the end of the story. Was for a MVP and would be the sole dev for a while. I have found in general that speaking to hr is not useful, if you get past that and a senior dev (not a manager or product owner) interviews me, it would be a good experience.
raverbashing 5y ago
As much as it is good they're paying you to take on a longer project, most people that are currently employed can't take this project without being in conflict with their current job. (Or even having time for it) I think tech companies are forgetting that firing people is an option.
- Nursie 5y ago
  Particularly in the contract market - I often see the process for taking on a contractor or consultant play out the exact same way as for an employee, forgetting that the interview process is very flawed and you can send the consultant home at any point you feel like with zero comeback. That said I’ve also seen companies pay contractors a month’s severance for no reason whatsoever too. A lot of places don’t seem to understand what they’re doing.
  - bryanrasmussen 5y ago
    my contracting contracts - in Denmark - often have a notice period but it is around 1 week to 1 month. I pretty much refuse coding exercises for contract work since it's so easy to get rid of me if you don't like it, and anyway as a contractor you get paid per hour so they should pay me for it. But sometimes there comes a place you really want to work for and they happen to have the coding exercise...
- FooBarWidget 5y ago
  No time? Can't people take vacation leave? Yeah it sucks that the time isn't spent on vacation, but you can't have everything in life without some cost.
  - Okkef 5y ago
    You are either a troll or don't have a family. If you do have a family i feel sorry for them. Life is not just about work.
    - FooBarWidget 5y ago
nxpnsv 5y ago
If you do one challenge, 6h is ok - I've even enjoyed these at times. But I'm sure it gets old real fast if you are on your 10th one...
- Grustaf 5y ago
  10 challenges is like two weeks of work. You probably studied for 3 to 5 years, and hopefully you'll work there for at least 2 years. Two weeks is not much, even if it is tedious.
  - isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
    You assume that there is no alternative which is a better match and doesn't have this sort of hoops to jump through.
    - Grustaf 5y ago
      I don't assume anything, I'm only saying that even if you had to spend 2 weeks to get a job, that's not really anything to complain about. The vast majority of people spend way more than that.
      - zqna 5y ago
        Free advice: don't do "homeworks". It's an indication of poorly run and dishonest company, with incompetents at the helm. That's if you get the contract. Most likely you won't (because your are competing with desperate people who lie about their actual effort). Best is to stay out of it.
        Grustaf 5y ago
        I got my FAANG job through whiteboard interviews, but I definitely prefer homework, and I think that's a better method. But thanks for the advice.
Grustaf 5y ago
> All you are selecting for is people who really really want to work for you. Really really wanting to work there is a good start. If they can also finish the tasks in a competent way it would seem they are perfect candidates. What is the problem?
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
  How many competent candidates are willing to jump through hoops like this?
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    I don't know, 23?
- lifeisstillgood 5y ago
  It seems Automattic is part of a select group of tech companies who are desirable as places to work, and have more high quality applicants than they can hire, and need to whittle down. That's great. And if I apply to one of those I really need to expect that. Now the company can be in this great position by being a world leading engineering organisation that is growing exponentially. Google, Facebook et al a few years back perhaps. But alternatively, any $RANDOMCOMPANY can think it is in this position not by attracting the best applicants globally, but by only hiring 3 people a year. The company still will get more high quality applicants than it can hire, so it needs to whittle down. But from the applicant side, applying to Google looks very different than applying to $RANDOMCOMPANY and they will drop in preference order. Taken to its logical extreme, each candidate will choose one company only to apply to based on the existing job pool and their expectations of getting the job. That seems silly.
fsociety 5y ago
46.5h to interview at a company? I’m not sure why cream of the crop developers would tolerate that over 5h of interviews. That sounds nearly predatory.
- andrew_ 5y ago
  I surely wouldn't do 6 hours of unpaid work. Not unless very desperate.

yosito 5y ago

I think it's the 6 hour take home coding that's a problem. I would suspect that when hiring writers, they look at a sample of the writer's past work and don't require the writer to spend 6 hours writing a sample children's book.

raxxorrax 5y ago
Would be nice to have an example. 6h/40h software development doesn't really say much about scope and is highly dependent on your experience with the tools necessary to perform the task.
thinkharderdev 5y ago
The 40h paid project also seems kind of crazy to me. It is nice that is is paid but almost every software engineer I have ever interviewed already had a full-time job and was looking to switch. Where are they supposed to find 40h to work on a side-project even if it is paid? Is the idea that you are supposed to quit your current job first before interviewing?
- aix1 5y ago
  > Where are they supposed to find 40h to work on a side-project even if it is paid? On top of that, taking on paid outside work in the same field could also be contrary to the candidate's contract with their existing employer[*]. [*] This no doubt depends on the employer and the jurisdiction.
  - lifeisstillgood 5y ago
    Of course !
yawaworht1978 5y ago
I had both a full day on site JS programming(css optional) and a 20hr take home reactJS exercise besides all the precious onboarding stuff, pretty crazy effort, for both parties, time is money. For one I had to take a day off, the other i did over a weekend. Another thing I have realized, all the jobs valued php and bit SQL more as basic knowledge for web dev than any nodeJS/MongoDB even if it's just front end, they want some back end understanding. Had some nodeJS things that generated all the front end via express , including chat module and sign up/log in flow, but either it was overlooked or not valued, any 5 minute to do list or crud with anything front end JS seemed more important. I suppose few dare to touch the node ecosystem and nosql databases. And the most recent one asked me if I can do their front end in react(really overkill, no need), told them I'll do it in vanilla JS, but nope, he insisted on react and that was the end of the story. Was for a MVP and would be the sole dev for a while. I have found in general that speaking to hr is not useful, if you get past that and a senior dev (not a manager or product owner) interviews me, it would be a good experience.

raverbashing 5y ago

As much as it is good they're paying you to take on a longer project, most people that are currently employed can't take this project without being in conflict with their current job. (Or even having time for it) I think tech companies are forgetting that firing people is an option.

Nursie 5y ago
Particularly in the contract market - I often see the process for taking on a contractor or consultant play out the exact same way as for an employee, forgetting that the interview process is very flawed and you can send the consultant home at any point you feel like with zero comeback. That said I’ve also seen companies pay contractors a month’s severance for no reason whatsoever too. A lot of places don’t seem to understand what they’re doing.
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  my contracting contracts - in Denmark - often have a notice period but it is around 1 week to 1 month. I pretty much refuse coding exercises for contract work since it's so easy to get rid of me if you don't like it, and anyway as a contractor you get paid per hour so they should pay me for it. But sometimes there comes a place you really want to work for and they happen to have the coding exercise...
FooBarWidget 5y ago
No time? Can't people take vacation leave? Yeah it sucks that the time isn't spent on vacation, but you can't have everything in life without some cost.
- Okkef 5y ago
  You are either a troll or don't have a family. If you do have a family i feel sorry for them. Life is not just about work.
  - FooBarWidget 5y ago

nxpnsv 5y ago

If you do one challenge, 6h is ok - I've even enjoyed these at times. But I'm sure it gets old real fast if you are on your 10th one...

Grustaf 5y ago
10 challenges is like two weeks of work. You probably studied for 3 to 5 years, and hopefully you'll work there for at least 2 years. Two weeks is not much, even if it is tedious.
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
  You assume that there is no alternative which is a better match and doesn't have this sort of hoops to jump through.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    I don't assume anything, I'm only saying that even if you had to spend 2 weeks to get a job, that's not really anything to complain about. The vast majority of people spend way more than that.
    - zqna 5y ago
      Free advice: don't do "homeworks". It's an indication of poorly run and dishonest company, with incompetents at the helm. That's if you get the contract. Most likely you won't (because your are competing with desperate people who lie about their actual effort). Best is to stay out of it.
      - Grustaf 5y ago
        I got my FAANG job through whiteboard interviews, but I definitely prefer homework, and I think that's a better method. But thanks for the advice.

Grustaf 5y ago

> All you are selecting for is people who really really want to work for you. Really really wanting to work there is a good start. If they can also finish the tasks in a competent way it would seem they are perfect candidates. What is the problem?

isbvhodnvemrwvn 5y ago
How many competent candidates are willing to jump through hoops like this?
- Grustaf 5y ago
  I don't know, 23?
lifeisstillgood 5y ago
It seems Automattic is part of a select group of tech companies who are desirable as places to work, and have more high quality applicants than they can hire, and need to whittle down. That's great. And if I apply to one of those I really need to expect that. Now the company can be in this great position by being a world leading engineering organisation that is growing exponentially. Google, Facebook et al a few years back perhaps. But alternatively, any $RANDOMCOMPANY can think it is in this position not by attracting the best applicants globally, but by only hiring 3 people a year. The company still will get more high quality applicants than it can hire, so it needs to whittle down. But from the applicant side, applying to Google looks very different than applying to $RANDOMCOMPANY and they will drop in preference order. Taken to its logical extreme, each candidate will choose one company only to apply to based on the existing job pool and their expectations of getting the job. That seems silly.

fsociety 5y ago

46.5h to interview at a company? I’m not sure why cream of the crop developers would tolerate that over 5h of interviews. That sounds nearly predatory.

andrew_ 5y ago
I surely wouldn't do 6 hours of unpaid work. Not unless very desperate.