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I'm confused. Isn't this considered treason?? They get no jail time? They get to buy their way out?! > “Hackers-for-hire and those who otherwise support such
by akulbe 5y ago
I'm confused. Isn't this considered treason??
They get no jail time? They get to buy their way out?!
> “Hackers-for-hire and those who otherwise support such activities in violation of U.S. law should fully expect to be prosecuted for their criminal conduct.”
I know they lose their clearances and pay a bunch of money, but this seems like it merits a lot more punishment than that.
- freeslave 5y agoUAE is a US ally and so they likely do not want to put a chill on their relations. "The United Arab Emirates has been described as the United States' best counter-terrorism ally in the Gulf by Richard A. Clarke, the U.S. national security advisor and counter-terrorism expert." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_Emirates%E2%80%93United_States_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_Emirates%E2%80%93U...
- colechristensen 5y agoTreason has a pretty narrow definition, if you aren’t directly conspiring with a foreign power (and at that probably an enemy) against the US, it probably isn’t treason. People like to jump to that judgement, but it almost never happens.
- cheschire 5y agoIt's not probably, title 18[0] is pretty clear that it's an enemy that matters. However, since the United States is at war with a noun, then that makes the definition of enemy very flexible. 0: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381 https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2381
- colechristensen 5y agoYes that flexibility of what counts as an enemy is why the word “probably” was used.
- xxpor 5y agoWell first, treason specifically is very narrowly defined in the US. >Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. They didn't levy war against the US, or adhere to an enemy (because the UAE isn't one). But in general, it's not illegal for US citizens to join foreign armies (if they aren't enemies). Lots of Jewish citizens, for example, serve in the IDF. "According to the U.S. code, any citizen who "enlists or enters himself, or hires or retains another to enlist or enter himself, or to go beyond the jurisdiction of the United States with intent to be enlisted or entered in the service of any foreign prince, state, colony, district, or people as a soldier or as a marine or seaman … shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both." But a court ruling from 1896 involving U.S. citizens who fought with Cuban revolutionaries against Spanish colonial rule interpreted this to mean that it was only illegal for citizens to be recruited for a foreign army in the United States, not to simply fight in one." https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/09/02/is-it-legal-for-americans-to-fight-in-another-countrys-army/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2011/09/02/is-it-legal-for-america...
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y agoThere were also the Flying Tigers, in 1941. I think they may have been enlisted soldiers, though, as opposed to private citizens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Tigers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Tigers
- this2shallPass 5y ago> Lots of Jewish citizens, for example, serve in the IDF. How many is "Lots"? Apparently the US doesn't keep records of this phenomenon that are easily accessible. This article^ from 2017 says 1,000 Jewish Americans serve in the IDF. Of the ~7,000,000 Jewish Americans, that's ~0.0143% of Jewish Americans serving in the IDF. If 1,000 joined and served each year, and live to an average age of 70, doesn't that mean ~50,000 people? That would mean ~0.714% of Jewish Americans having served in the IDF. ^ https://www.thedailybeast.com/1000-americans-are-serving-in-the-israeli-army-and-they-arent-alone https://www.thedailybeast.com/1000-americans-are-serving-in-... approximate number. 7.153-7.5 million are good estimates.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- literallyaduck 5y agoLaws are for the little people who don't have important friends. Want to hack? Want to call China as a US general? As long as you are in good standing with the Party you can write your own ticket. Edit: Just a year ago our feeds were full of people complaining about a call to Russia from an underlying who was not a US general.
- x86_64Ubuntu 5y agoI don't think calling China as a US general is in the same bucket as hacking for hire.
- _3u10 5y agoInforming the Chinese of an insurrection in the US chain of command that the general himself is leading is far worse.
- dukeofdoom 5y agoPelosi said Trump will be 'fumigated out' if he refuses to leave the White House. How was that supposed to happen, if not for the military. Communication between Pelosi and Military leaders were ongoing. "House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said she spoke to Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. Mark Milley about precautions that could block President Trump from “ordering a nuclear strike” or accessing launch codes and starting military hostilities" Source: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/08/pelosi-prevent-trump-from-launching-nuclear-strike.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/08/pelosi-prevent-trump-from-la...
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- _3u10 5y agoDid he refuse to leave?
- 5y ago
- andrewnicolalde 5y agoMaybe not treason, but surely espionage?
- diskzero 5y agoPeople like to use the term treason a lot, but as it is defined under Article III, Section 3 of the US Constitution, their actions are not treasonous. If you can prove otherwise, I am all for it though! Specifically, the were charged with: Violations of U.S. export control, computer fraud and access device fraud laws. The Department filed the DPA today, along with a criminal information alleging that the defendants conspired to violate such laws. I think they are losers, scumbags and unethical and I hope that no one who reads HN ever hires them and that they never work in any capacity that comes into contact with IT, Infosec or any other hi-tech industry.
- _3u10 5y agoHow is going to work for more money a loserish activity? My understanding is that the US contractors underpay so being patriotic Americans they went to work for a better company.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- jjulius 5y agoIs income really the only signifier of what makes an activity loserish to you? Not who they work for, the work they're doing, who it may target, the rules they may actively be choosing to break in the process, etc.?
- _3u10 5y agoLooking at the document it appears that they are working for the same nation state, they just cut out the red tape and a few layers of middlemen. Most people feel in the software field feel the ITAR regulations as applied to code are ridiculous including but not limited to the EFF. Most consider it to be an abridgment of their 1st amendment rights.
- diskzero 5y agoHaving a desire to increase your income is fine. For some, it is their primary motivation, for others it is a result of being recognized for producing valuable results. Each person has their own moral code; for some, even working for Google or Facebook falls outside of that code. I have worked with various companies that have contracts with the US military and other agencies. I wouldn't say they underpay. I would actually say they pay pretty well, but once again, this has to align with whatever your personal values are. Some people are quite happy to work for a three letter acronym agency and couldn't ever conceive of working for a FAANG or a foreign entity. I am sorry that a general perception of Americans might be that we are mercenary and will run after the highest paying opportunity. There are 300 million of us, and I would say that a majority of Americans are driven by values that don't include the theft of national intelligence assets or chasing after money no matter the consequence.
- MattGaiser 5y agoI assume because the country is an ally they don't get in as much trouble.
- mhh__ 5y agoJonathan Pollard, though? It definitely varies.
- snarf21 5y agoTreason is only for poor and unconnected people. The rule makers are very careful to never make white collar crime super punishable.
- RealityVoid 5y agoIt's really, historically no different than any soldier that chooses to fight in another country's war, and that is pretty common along history. Usually, they were only punished if the geopolitical scenery called for it.
- lainga 5y agoFamously https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Llewellyn https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Llewellyn was in Paris when WWI broke out, but managed to reach Germany, and briefly fought alongside (without joining) the German Army.
- jnwatson 5y agoThis is exactly what NSO does and they don’t get charged with anything. Mudge sells Cobalt Strike out in the open. The only difference is these guys didn’t set up a company first.
- Thorrez 5y agoNSO employees aren't US citizens. I wonder if Mudge has a license.
- benja123 5y agoNSO is an Israeli company, which means they need to follow Israeli export laws when it comes to weapons. All of NSO contracts will first go through the Israel Defense Ministry. The US has a similar process, where companies that sell weapons to foreign governments need to get permission from the US DOD. In this case Marc, Ryan and Daniel did not go through the DOD and that is why they are being charged.