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Michelin's airless tires are scheduled for market launch in 2024
- daxfohl 5y agoI was expecting yet another minor convenience that doubled the ecological footprint of a thing. But it looks like reducing impact was actually a goal here. Pretty awesome.
- makomk 5y agoThey're trying to spin it as reducing the environmental impact, but the actual details in the article seem iffy. Glass fibre reinforced plastic is basically non-recyclable and they only have some vague ambition to make them out of something that is at some unspecified point in the future.
- daxfohl 5y agoYeah greenwashing is a thing and even a lot of stuff that genuinely well-intentioned can have externalities that outweigh the benefit. But at least it looks like they're trying.
- bufferoverflow 5y agoHow do they deal with rocks/mud/dirt/sand getting inside?
- croon 5y agoI'm hoping that's a prototype that just shows the structure inside and not the final design. But I guess we'll find out, or they will in that trial.
- maxcan 5y agoI suspect the production version will have a covering on the sidewall for that and to reduce aerodynamic drag. It won’t be structural like current tires but I think the “wall-free” design you see now is Just prototype marketing.
- lstodd 5y agoThat will interfere with cooling. Heat buildup will reduce lifespan. This was researched and practiced since at least first world war, with pioneering applications dating to 1850s. TLDR: internal friction in the rubber kills it. Acceptable for military and heavy-duty vehicles, useless for anything else.
- tokai 5y agoGood that they are glass fiber reinforced plastic and not rubber then.
- lstodd 5y agoTires were hemp-reinfoced plastic, then steel-reinforced plastic, they are now actually fiberglass-reinforced plastic. It doesn't matter. So long as elasticity is provided not by gas compression, but solid material compression/tension, that solid material will deteriorate fast. Downvote me all you want, but this idea won't fly. It can't compete with regular tires at anything above 20mph.
- xmdx 5y agoLooks like a complete pass through from one side to the other so washing them should remove most of that. Rocks might even fall out as the tyre rotates.
- dhd415 5y agoAlloy wheels have had open designs for decades and that hasn't been a problem for them.
- Cthulhu_ 5y agoThose have bigger and fewer holes, and they don't look like an ant's nest.
- adrianmonk 5y agoAlloy wheels don't need to flex, though. If a rock wedges into nooks and crannies of this, perhaps it could mess up the performance. And perhaps it could cause damage since you'd have a harder material (rock) rubbing against a softer one (rubbery airless tire stuff).
- CountDrewku 5y agoTires are different than wheels....
- throwaway0a5e 5y agoIt wouldn't be too crazy of an engineering trick to make the pores flex in a manner that causes them to crap out anything that's clogging them as the tire goes around.
- adrianmonk 5y agoTheir FAQ (downloadable from https://michelinmedia.com/michelin-uptis/ https://michelinmedia.com/michelin-uptis/) does address this: > 21. What will happen if some small stones or mud or snow get in between the structure of Uptis? > The objective during the development of the commercial product is to test Uptis in all of these situations. Some preliminary tests show that stones, mud or ice/snow will not stay inside the Uptis structure. Obviously preliminary tests aren't anywhere near enough to prove it's a nonissue, though.
- throwaway0a5e 5y agoEven if these tires aren't good enough for the snobs who want everything to be silent and handle perfectly they'll be great for trailers, yard trucks and other rarely used vehicles that rack up few miles and run run old-ish tires (which tend to be more plagued by slow leaks and whatnot) but still need to go highway speed.
- tokai 5y agoNothing snobbish about wanting silent tires. Tires are one of the main factors for road noise, and road noise causes adverse health effects and death on a large scale.
- ashtonkem 5y agoIt’s also a decent chunk of what causes economic blight for housing nearby highways.
- throwaway0a5e 5y agoAny noise a normal-ish passenger car is of no consequence compared to the noise of heavy trucks and motorcycles. You don't even notice it. It's only "blighted" because the people who self select to live beside a highway tend not to be the ones who care a ton about making their residence look nice from the street (manicured lawn, nice siding, sealed driveway, etc, etc) so the prices stay cheap, the rents stay low and the cycle continues. Source: I live beside a highway
- Jackim 5y agoI disagree. The difference that I and many other people noticed on city streets during the initial COVID lockdowns was enormous. Cities aren’t loud places, the continuous white noise from passing passenger vehicles is the loud part. 60 km/h traffic is 10 times louder than people having a conversation.
- 5y ago
- mrpopo 5y agoVery cool. Would this also help with particle release from tire wear?
- runawaybottle 5y agoElon Musk on airless tires for Tesla: https://youtu.be/HojNb3qf-uw https://youtu.be/HojNb3qf-uw
- meisel 5y agoWhat impact does this tire have on car mileage?
- Scoundreller 5y agoMy guess is bad, and they’re destined for riot-control vehicles or all-terrain vehicles where mileage doesn’t matter as much as other concerns.
- throwaway0a5e 5y agoContact patch and rubber compound being close to constant when compared to a pneumatic tire the mileage impact would primarily depend on weight. I don't think it will be much of an impact since Michilin is unlikely to make a very heavy tire as that would have bad NVH characteristics which don't jive at the high end and reading between the lines of the press release stuff seems to indicate that's where they're targeting.
- RegBarclay 5y agoAdjusting inflation pressure is a feature. I run my tires higher than the vehicle recommendation but still below the sidewall limit for improved fuel economy. Airing down for sand is a thing too.
- BenjiWiebe 5y agoThat will likely increase wear and decrease traction. What's happening is that the contact patch is getting narrower and the sides of the tread aren't helping support the weight as much. I worked in a tire shop, and chronic overinflation caused tires to go bald in the center of the tread while the sides had tread left. Have to replace them more often then.
- RegBarclay 5y agoI understand the dynamics. My interests and driving style rank fuel economy over handling. I've never had tires wear out middle-first. I generally get edge wear first or even wear across the tread. I just got a set of tires replaced under tread life warranty because they wore out edge first. The tire shop set the pressure higher than recommended and actually a little higher than I usually set it myself.
- Scoundreller 5y agoThis website is funny in the EU. I have to scroll to the bottom of the disclosure before it lets me press “reject all”, as if I would care about exactly what I’m rejecting.
- kwhitefoot 5y agoNot for me. But I'm running uBlock Origin with Javascript disabled. It rendered perfectly.
- GavinMcG 5y agoThen how did you reject the cookies?
- cassepipe 5y agoSometimes I see "Accept" on some website. Are some cookies opt-in and other opt-out depending on the legislation ?
- kristofferR 5y agoI think they aren't allowed to use the tracking cookies before you've given permission.
- GavinMcG 5y agoThat depends on jurisdiction. In the U.S. there are plenty of sites that opt you in, and either allow you to reject or don't but link to their privacy policy (which then might say "we don't care about your privacy").
- cge 5y agoIt is perhaps useful to consider the entirety of the disclosure, however, in that it would let you know that by pressing "reject all", it appears that you are allowing all their listed purposes: they claim legitimate interest for every purpose they list. Reading further, after scrolling through one list of around 700 partners, you would also find a second list of what appears to be around 700 other partners, with, it appears, likely around 300-400 legitimate interest switches, all defaulting to on.
- makapuf 5y agoI would like to know if bikes could be equipped with this kind of tires, I tend to never have my tires fully inflated...
- piqufoh 5y agoAirless tyres for bikes are quite common (our kids bikes are all airless). Here are some grownups airless tyres! https://tannus.co.uk/tyres https://tannus.co.uk/tyres
- jack_riminton 5y agoThere’ve been quite a few already. Most popular in bike sharing schemes, but they’re pretty awful https://link.medium.com/UrBG7Dkrzjb https://link.medium.com/UrBG7Dkrzjb
- Zigurd 5y agoYou can buy airless inserts for bikes, as well as airless tires. These are not used in higher performance applications. In performance road, gravel, and mountain bikes you find tubeless tires that use sealant instead of airless inserts.
- StefanHamminga 5y agoThe concept looks interesting, but I wonder what will happen when a car or trailer with these drives a road with snow / and or grit? The open structure looks perfect for launching anything that will go into the slots into other traffic.
- FuriouslyAdrift 5y agoThere's a video on how it performs in snow. https://michelinmedia.com/site/user/files/44/MNA342_Uptis_Snow_Clip-proxy_2.mp4 https://michelinmedia.com/site/user/files/44/MNA342_Uptis_Sn...
- troglonoid 5y agoI don’t think this video shows how it performs in snow if we consider usage beyond a parking maneuver.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- HeyLaughingBoy 5y agoYes, but that's a known issue that has nothing to do with it being airless. Back when I used to go off-roading a lot it was common behavior to leave a lot of space between you and the truck ahead when you got back onto a paved road. The open tread pattern of offroad tires picks up lots of small rocks and sends them flying back at highway speed. Not good for the windshield on the following vehicle. I live on a gravel road now. You learn not to follow other vehicles too closely!
- sparsely 5y agoThere have been a number of reports of components of rubber tiers being harmful to humans[1] or the broader environment[2] beyond the waste issue, would be interesting to know if these manage to improve on that. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/11/polluting-effect-wear-brakes-tyres-pollutionwatch https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/sep/11/pollutin... [2] https://www.opb.org/article/2020/12/04/scientists-point-to-chemical-in-car-tires-thats-been-killing-coho-salmon/ https://www.opb.org/article/2020/12/04/scientists-point-to-c...
- jillesvangurp 5y agoIf it's biodegradable, that would help. Only what remains of the tires ends up in landfills/recycled. The rest is a major contributor to microplastics in our oceans. The tires don't just erode into nothing. Those particles (mixed with particles from the road service) become dust that ends up in sewers when it rains, which drain to rivers, which drain to oceans. By the time the tire is used up, we're talking a sizable amount of material. Vulcanized rubber is nasty; it doesn't really break down (that is the whole point of vulcanizing) that easily and is also toxic.
- Robotbeat 5y agoDust generally is bad, too. EDITING to provide source because I was downvoted. All types, including rail dust: https://www.railway-technology.com/features/feature-air-in-underground-subways-harming-health/ https://www.railway-technology.com/features/feature-air-in-u...
- veemjeem 5y agoHas anyone done analysis on microplastics to figure out what percentage are from vulcanized rubber? It's probably a high percentage, but would be nice to have an actual scientific study on the figure.
- jillesvangurp 5y agohttps://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/tires-unseen-plastic-polluter https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/article/tires... Several studies apparently. 10-30 percent depending on the study.
- yoz-y 5y ago> Rechargeable, connected and sustainable Hmm. Do these have batteries and computers inside? Do they have to? Making things “smart” usually decreases the time span.
- tsjq 5y ago>Making things “smart” usually decreases the time span. how else to add planned obsolescence to such a durable product?
- martimarkov 5y agoIn the concept video it’s shown that a 3D printer can print layers on top of the tyre. I think this is what they meant by rechargeable - the ability to “fix” the tyres.
- yetihehe 5y agoWe can do that already to normal tires and without 3d printing. Such tires are of lower quality though.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago>Such tires are of lower quality though. And you've found the problem. Michilin is trying to compete with Firestone to sell the next set of $1k tires you put on your expensive car. They're (mostly) not competing with Deestone and Linglong to produce the cheapest tire for your beater car. The people buying the former don't buy retreads. But they might if you find a way to re-spin the same fundamental idea as something that isn't low-end. And if you're the first to figure out how to sell that product to those people you can make boatloads of money while everyone else plays catch up.
- mrfusion 5y agoGOOD point by my wife, why don’t we work on puncture resistance instead? Reinforce the tires with Kevlar or carbon fiber?
- ashtonkem 5y agoBecause traditional tires wear down over time even if they aren’t punctured. The goal is to make ones that last longer than that. Also, airless tires are puncture proof by definition.
- colejohnson66 5y agoAirless tires will still wear out though. That’s the nature of friction with the road. The important one is: how much more durable are these compared to your normal rubber ones?
- sailfast 5y agoPer the video, their plan is to 3D print additional sustainable tread on demand and/or switch you over to snow tires if you need them using 3D printing techniques while you have a snack (apparently)
- ashtonkem 5y agoThey can be re-belted like a semi truck tire, with a sacrificial wear layer on top of an airless support structure. Obviously they will still consume the rubber that wears down, but most of the tire will be reused rather than disposed of.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- masklinn 5y agoKevlar-reinforced tyres exist, they’re used on off-road vehicle. I expect they don’t protect much against the sort of very thin puncture you’d find on a standard road because there’s simply too much pressure being applied when driving a car over a nail/screw. I don’t think carbon fibre would be of any use here, it’s not super strong against high transversal forces AFAIK. It’d mostly be useful for sidewall rigidity (and I’d be surprised if it didn’t already exist).
- gbil 5y agoThat "Hit the Streets" is an exaggeration, the actual quote from the article on timeline: -- the company said they were on track for tires to reach the market by 2024. --
- throwawaytire01 5y agoI am an engineer working in the tire industry (throwaway is needed here). The Michelin "Tweel" IP was actually acquired when Michelin bought BF Goodrich 31 years ago. Goodrich developed the concept as a replacement for compact spare tires, doing the initial R&D in the 1980s. Every 3--5 years Michelin has a press release like this, and the technology is always 3--5 years away from release. Currently the US DOT and it's equivalents abroad are still in the rulemaking phase regarding airfree technologies, so there's that, too.
- avelis 5y agoThe video looked like a fancy PR piece and that's it. Sad that this tech has been shelved for 31 years. Maybe there isn't a viable go to market strategy.
- cscharenberg 5y agoThanks for explaining that. I feel like I heard about the "Tweel" in the 90s in Popular Mechanics, and occasionally since then.
- godelski 5y agoWhat are the reasons for it constantly being 3-5 years away? Technology? Regulations? Both? Manufacturers not thinking the public will understand tradeoffs and unwilling to take the risk and explain this to them? Can it at least work as a spare tire?
- Decker87 5y agoI can't answer your question exactly, but I can add that regular air tires have advanced tremendously in the last 30 years. It's also a moving target for these airless ones to compete against.
- gz5 5y agoIn 'The Wide Lens' by Ron Adner, he uses Michelin's run-flat tire initiative (PAX) to show how brilliant innovations can fall flat (sorry, couldn't resist) if the entire ecosystem / supply chain is not enabled. In the case of PAX, the service stations (75% of the market is replacement) were not ready. Hopefully, Michelin has the full ecosystem enabled in this case, as this seems promising.
- t0mas88 5y agoThe sad part for Michelin is that not much later BMW started using run-flat tires on all their cars. So it was really just a value-chain issue, not a lack of demand or bad timing.
- rad_gruchalski 5y ago> In several lawsuits and on some Web sites, consumers have complained about the difficulty of finding shops with the equipment to work on PAX; they also cite excessive tire wear and replacement costs as high as $1,600 for four tires. https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/automobiles/20TIRES.html https://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/20/automobiles/20TIRES.html Seems to be a really bad value for money.
- the_mitsuhiko 5y agoAren't a lot of tires these days self sealing? Different system but also innovation but without the downsides of PAX.
- jaclaz 5y ago>Through its Vision Concept, the company wants to make tires that are airless, rechargeable, connected, and sustainable. 1) airless, check. 2) rechargeable ?? 3) connected ?? 4) sustainable ??
- mrpopo 5y agoThe embedded video seems to show that you can 3d-print on top of an existing tire, which would let you "recharge" for a certain number of km. It's also more sustainable that way.
- jaclaz 5y agoHmmm, I doubt about the actual duration of something just 3D printed over, in the sense of adhesion, I remember the process to join (rubber based) watertight expansion joints and it involved (after preparation of surfaces and application of adhesive) some half hour pressed into a heated aluminium cast. (and the procedure is similar AFAIK for retreading tyres currently in use) On the other hand, they were common in Italy in the '70's and '80's, there were truck tyres that instead of being re-treaded with the "hot" process above were thinned and grooved on a sort of lathe and then a monolithic external "ring" that included the tread on the outside and matching grooves inside was applied, when the tyre was inflated the grooves and the pression made the two stay together (until the tyre was punctured, it was not so rare that you could find on roads these outer rings lost by some truck that had a flat wheel).
- mc32 5y agoBuzzword stuffing. With regard to sustainable, well, I guess they could return to the jungles of Malaysia and Brazil for caoutchouc…
- dotancohen 5y agoRechargeable: Adding tread. Connected: Reports tread status and configuration, e.g. to inform the driver that he should change to a winter tire tread. Sustainable: Recycled and recyclable.
- 5y ago
- smbv 5y agoCleaned up URL: https://interestingengineering.com/michelin-airless-tires-hit-public-streets-for-first-time https://interestingengineering.com/michelin-airless-tires-hi...
- chapium 5y agoAnother great way to improve the environment is biking for trips below 5-10 miles. This carbon offset would do laps around car ownership.
- clircle 5y agoI wonder how the road noise is when driving with a set of these.
- ck2 5y agoBased on the number of nails I find every week in the parking lot around my car, this can't come too soon to the mainstream. Just hope it becomes affordable for basic cars by the end of the decade, I'm sure China will make a cheaper knockoff.
- boyaintbright 5y agoThese look like they will quickly collect debris, become unbalanced, and vibrate horribly at highway speeds.
- RC_ITR 5y agoWhat would stop them from putting on sidewalls in production?
- datameta 5y agoThat would be a separate engineering problem. If it needs to be a different rubber or polymer compound then there's the bonding issue. They would need to have an air outlet to avoid pressure differential, but that then means one needs to figure out how to have a cheap waterproof valve because it probably is not desirable to have stagnant water inside.
- qutreM 5y agoIf you want one for your mower, etc: https://tweel.michelinman.com/michelin-tweel-family-of-products https://tweel.michelinman.com/michelin-tweel-family-of-produ...
- wing-_-nuts 5y agoI wonder about ride quality. My car had runflats when I bought it, when it was time for new tires, I went with some high quality all seasons. My ride quality improved, my gas mileage went up and they brake / corner better. The risk of an unplugable flat is a small price to pay for that.
- brink 5y agoThese tires look like they use about 4x the rubber.
- jrgaston 5y agoRun flat tires are expensive, heavy, and hard riding. On the other hand, they don't go flat. I recently had a flat in my VW and I missed having my old Mini's run flats. Sometimes you just aren't in a place where you want to change a tire.
- exhilaration 5y agoMy Toyota Sienna AWD (with run flats) doesn't have a spare tire, so sometimes you CAN'T even change a tire!
- Stratoscope 5y agoI've always had conventional tires, but when my Kia Rondo was due for new ones a few years ago, my tire guy suggested the Bridgestone DriveGuard. I was skeptical because of everything I'd heard about run flats, but he said these were a big improvement. And he was right! They feel just like conventional tires. Maybe a bit harder ride, but I had been in the habit of inflating my old tires 2-3 pounds more than the manufacturer recommendation. So I brought these back down to the recommended 32psi and they are just fine. And they proved their worth when I got to a job interview on time even after getting a flat - and when I went to the tire shop it was a free repair instead of a new tire.
- lmilcin 5y agoJust don't let it dry out with mud in it!
- OOvsuOO 5y agoAnyone know the lifetime of the threads or tire? How often will they have to be replaced? So if it's the same it's not really much of a improvement. Just for the luxury of being "airfree". There will be some negative aspects or tradeoffs to be made with the tire? Companies are in it to make money and surely they won't make a new time that is 100x lasting than the current because that will be a losing proposition in their view.
- Lio 5y agoThese remind me of the Tannus[1] solid bike tyres that have been around for (...guessing from memory...) about a decade now. I think last time I looked that them the rolling resistance was a little more than I'd like on my "fun" bikes but for commuting that they look great option. I think my personal preference for a "ride flat" system would be for a tubeless tyre, sealant and an insert like Tannus' Armour Tubeless (...or tubs I guess) 1. https://tannustires.com/en/ https://tannustires.com/en/
- megablast 5y agoHave they reduced the plastic coming off and polluting waterways?? The number one cause of micro plastics near waterways is from car tyres.
- kazinator 5y ago> Puncture-proof tires have been an intriguing concept for many years. Tire maker, Michelin, has been working on it since 2005 and after more than a decade of work, it is now closer to reality. That is false. Tires like this are nothing hew; they have been around for over 100 years. They are useful in niche applications, like earth-moving machinery and whatnot. Other than that, airless tires are rubbish and will not displace pneumatic tires. https://www.ikkaro.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/ruedas-sin-aire-martin.jpg https://www.ikkaro.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/ruedas-sin... http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/414262.jpg http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/414262.jpg
- LeoPanthera 5y agoI have airless tires on my bicycle. They are slightly firmer than regular tires, but the trade-off for knowing I will literally never get a puncture is more than worth it. They are not “rubbish”.
- kazinator 5y agoShort of obviously poor quality components, materials and builds, almost nothing is objectively rubbish in cycling, because cycling is about experimentation and personal choices, which can be all over the place. A lot of cycling is recreational and light commuting, and so performance factors do not matter. Airless tires are certainly right for someone who abhors punctures and wants to avoid them at all costs. Factors like efficiency, weight or ride quality don't necessarily matter his or her use case, or even if they somewhat do, they are overridden by the abhorrence of having to pull off to the side and deal with a flat. Yet, even though cycling is the one sphere where airless tires could have a chance, is is overwhelmingly dominated by pneumatics, just like motorism. I don't think you will see anyone place well in a road cycling competition, if they bring airless tires. But, well, so what? A lot of the bicycle tech is driven from the top down by the competitive sport; and maybe that results in certain technical choices being promulgated at the entry retail level that are not necessarily relevant to every user.
- hnarn 5y agoThis seems like an excellent idea for a spare tire, since those usually only lie around for a long time in the boot, and when they do get used it's expected that they don't perform exactly as the regular tires. For some reason though, it seems like a lot of car manufacturers are moving away from spare tires to things like "car puncture kits" that fill your tire with foam or something. If the recycling of tires was abysmal before, something like that seems like it would make it even worse.